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Mac Plumart

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #50 on: September 10, 2010, 10:21:11 PM »
Tom...

I find your last comment very interesting

..."Golf architecture advanced to the point where there were no inexperienced, untested architects operating in 1910."  

This seems to me to be a very important time for golf course architecture, and perhaps the sport as a whole.  What do you think the important aspects of this age/era were?

Correct me if I am wrong, but this isn't what is often thought of as the "Golden Age" yet.  But perhaps the inflow of professional and/or seasoned amateurs laid the foundation for the explosion of golf after Ouimet's victory and the ensuing "Golden Age" of architecture a bit later.

Any input you can offer would be appreciated...but I understand if you want this thread to go another way and, therefore, choose not to answer.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #51 on: September 10, 2010, 10:24:07 PM »
Tom,

"Because they were considered outdated, too short and too easy by people like Darwin."

Well, the USGA certainly disagreed with Mr. Darwin, at least in the case of the Philadelphia Cricket Club which hosted TWO U.S. Opens, in 1907 and in your pivotal year of 1910.

You also stated, "Golf architecture advanced to the point where there were no inexperienced, untested architects operating in 1910." 

Nonsense! A.W. Tillinghast was both inexperienced and untested and yet had designed Shawnee by late 1909 and was overseeing its construction throughout 1910 and had done neither before those years.

Again, you have no problem taking others to task for citing absolutes and yet expect that your own use of them is unimpeachable. I would agree that MOST of the better to great courses in the U.S. that opened between 1911-1920 were done by professional architects and that after 1920 it was very rare to find anything substantial done by an amateur architect.

Was Philadelphia Cricket considered the best course in Philadelphia in 1910?

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #52 on: September 10, 2010, 10:25:55 PM »
Tom...

I find your last comment very interesting

..."Golf architecture advanced to the point where there were no inexperienced, untested architects operating in 1910."  

This seems to me to be a very important time for golf course architecture, and perhaps the sport as a whole.  What do you think the important aspects of this age/era were?

Correct me if I am wrong, but this isn't what is often thought of as the "Golden Age" yet.  But perhaps the inflow of professional and/or seasoned amateurs laid the foundation for the explosion of golf after Ouimet's victory and the ensuing "Golden Age" of architecture a bit later.

Any input you can offer would be appreciated...but I understand if you want this thread to go another way and, therefore, choose not to answer.

IMO the turning point in the US was the creation of NGLA, after that all hell broke loose.

TEPaul

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2010, 10:34:35 PM »
"Early on I think it is fair to say that the US Amateur was considered the much bigger event than the US Open.  I am not sure exactly when this perception began to change.  For the first three years the US Open was only 36 holes, and was played the day after the US Amateur finished, on the same course.  I don't remember the exact source, but I recall reading one period paper which stated that the Western Amateur was second in importance only to the USOpen."



I would defiinitely endorse the above. It may seem counter-intuitive to us today but I feel there are numerous reliable historic sources from those days to prove it to be true. Probably the best example would be the early tournament history of Myopia and the reasons they held what they did then!

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2010, 10:41:53 PM »
TEP
Do you think it is likely Merion would choose an inexperienced, untested, insurance salesman to design their new golf course?

Phil_the_Author

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #55 on: September 10, 2010, 10:44:57 PM »
Tom,

You asked, "Was Philadelphia Cricket considered the best course in Philadelphia in 1910?" It probably was and I think hosting the U.S. Open twice in 4 years including 1910 goes a very long way toward proving that.

So, based upon that, do you still maintain that Philadelphia Cricket was "outdated" and "too easy" in 1910?

Since you chose to ignore my disagreement with your contention that "Golf architecture advanced to the point where there were no inexperienced, untested architects operating in 1910..." I'll ask you if you then considered A.W. Tillinghast who had just finished his design of Shawnee and was now overseeing its construction, both of which were firsts for him, was actually experienced and tested in 1910, and if so, what you could possibly base it on?

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2010, 10:46:06 PM »
It probably was?

TEPaul

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #57 on: September 10, 2010, 10:46:54 PM »
The list Tom MacWood constructed seems to be his opinion with very little historic support or confirmation (not that it isn't possible to provide---just that Tom MacWood doesn't provide it). And I would point this thread to Mac Plumart's question on that in Post #36 which Tom MacWood does not seem to have responded to or answered. What's new?!  ;)

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #58 on: September 10, 2010, 10:49:37 PM »
The list Tom MacWood constructed seems to be his opinion with very little historic support or confirmation (not that it isn't possible to provide---just that Tom MacWood doesn't provide it). And I would point this thread to Mac Plumart's question on that in Post #36 which Tom MacWood does not seem to have responded to or answered. What's new?!  ;)

TEP
What courses did I miss?

Phil_the_Author

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #59 on: September 10, 2010, 10:51:49 PM »
Yes Tom, it PROBABLY was. I won't state it definitively because I wasn't there and I never played or personally saw the clourses in the Philly area in 1910.

So, still avoiding the other two questions I see:

So, based upon that, do you still maintain that Philadelphia Cricket was "outdated" and "too easy" in 1910?

Since you chose to ignore my disagreement with your contention that "Golf architecture advanced to the point where there were no inexperienced, untested architects operating in 1910..." I'll ask you if you then considered A.W. Tillinghast who had just finished his design of Shawnee and was now overseeing its construction, both of which were firsts for him, was actually experienced and tested in 1910, and if so, what you could possibly base it on?

TEPaul

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #60 on: September 10, 2010, 10:55:10 PM »
"TEP
Do you think it is likely Merion would choose an inexperienced, untested, insurance salesman to design their new golf course?"


Tom MacWood:

You've asked that question before on this website and I've answered it before.

For some reason you are asking it of me again.

My answer has been and is again that it is not just likely it is a fact of Merion's history. Hugh Wilson and his four man member committee originally routed and designed and built Merion East and West with some help and advice from others on Merion East.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 11:16:36 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #61 on: September 10, 2010, 10:55:58 PM »
Yes Tom, it PROBABLY was. I won't state it definitively because I wasn't there and I never played or personally saw the clourses in the Philly area in 1910.

So, still avoiding the other two questions I see:

So, based upon that, do you still maintain that Philadelphia Cricket was "outdated" and "too easy" in 1910?

Since you chose to ignore my disagreement with your contention that "Golf architecture advanced to the point where there were no inexperienced, untested architects operating in 1910..." I'll ask you if you then considered A.W. Tillinghast who had just finished his design of Shawnee and was now overseeing its construction, both of which were firsts for him, was actually experienced and tested in 1910, and if so, what you could possibly base it on?

I would have included Shawnee but it opened in 1911. Was Philadelphia Cricket considered better than Huntingdon Valley or Whitemarsh Valley in 1910?

Mac Plumart

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #62 on: September 10, 2010, 10:56:54 PM »
Off to bed...

but trying to get my arms around what might have been to short or easy a golf course to have been considered great, which is in-line with Tom M's early comment.

Here is a table of US Open's with winning score included (FYI, US Amateur was match play and not as easy to get the actual scores):

1910 Alex Smith (2)  Scotland Philadelphia Cricket Club, St. Martin's Course Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 298
1909 George Sargent  England Englewood Golf Club Englewood, New Jersey 290
1908 Fred McLeod  Scotland Myopia Hunt Club South Hamilton, Massachusetts 322
1907 Alec Ross  Scotland Philadelphia Cricket Club, St. Martin's Course Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 302
1906 Alex Smith  Scotland Onwentsia Club Lake Forest, Illinois 295
1905 Willie Anderson (4)  Scotland Myopia Hunt Club South Hamilton, Massachusetts 314
1904 Willie Anderson (3)  Scotland Glen View Club Golf, Illinois 303
1903 Willie Anderson (2)  Scotland Baltusrol Golf Club Springfield, New Jersey 307
1902 Laurie Auchterlonie  Scotland Garden City Golf Club Garden City, New York 307
1901 Willie Anderson  Scotland Myopia Hunt Club South Hamilton, Massachusetts 331
1900 Harry Vardon  Jersey Chicago Golf Club Wheaton, Illinois 313
1899 Willie Smith  Scotland Baltimore Country Club, East Course Lutherville-Timonium, Maryland 315
1898 Fred Herd  Scotland Myopia Hunt Club South Hamilton, Massachusetts 328

Of course technology will play a factor in scoring, as will weather, and perhaps some other variables.  But it looks like Myopia was the ass kicker and maybe Ontwensia and Englewood were a bit easier.  Certainly not a robust scientific approach, but at least it is something.
 
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #63 on: September 10, 2010, 10:58:21 PM »
Sleep tight.

TEPaul

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #64 on: September 10, 2010, 10:59:57 PM »
"TEP
What courses did I miss?"


Tom MacWood:

I really don't know and wouldn't want to venture an answer to that. I feel your list is only subjective and largely fruitless and irrelevent because of that.

Support it with some contemporaneous opinon poll and I might consider the question but I doubt there were any reliable opinion polls on that question in 1910! ;)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 11:02:36 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #65 on: September 10, 2010, 11:03:05 PM »
thanks.

Phil_the_Author

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #66 on: September 10, 2010, 11:10:27 PM »
"I would have included Shawnee but it opened in 1911."

Now how does that answer the question as to whether you believe that Tilly was both an experienced and tested architect in 1910 as you obviously must since you clearly stated that "Golf architecture advanced to the point where there were no inexperienced, untested architects operating in 1910..."?

There is nothing wrong with saying that you forgot about Tilly. If you do indeed believe that he was "experienced and tested" despite NEVER having designed a golf course or oversaw its construction before 1909 and that the course wouldn't even be completed before 1911 I think you're going to have to provide some serious proof of that.  

Was Philadelphia Cricket considered better than Huntingdon Valley or Whitemarsh Valley in 1910?"

By some experts of the day, and in this I once again cite the USGA for their choice of the course for the 1910 Open when any Philly course asked would have hosted it, the answer is yes.

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #67 on: September 10, 2010, 11:20:44 PM »
thanks.

Phil_the_Author

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #68 on: September 10, 2010, 11:54:38 PM »
Your welcome...

Mike Cirba

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #69 on: September 11, 2010, 06:12:10 AM »
What was George Crump's design experience in 1910?  Ab Smith's?  J. Franklin Meehan's? George Tthomas?  George Klauder?  Ed ClareyV

Yet all of the amateurs were designing golf courses in and around Philadelphia in the next decade and beyond.


Jeff_Brauer

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #70 on: September 11, 2010, 07:03:57 AM »
Ah, nothing like the old question and question format to spark a discussion!

TMac,

What I take from your extensive list is that the notion of just how gca was going to be performed was evolving, but evolving towards the professional way of doing things quite quickly.  Even TePaul admits that the era of the amateur sportsman gca was quite limited in duration and scope, pretty much to the dozen or so courses he typically mentions.  Certainly after WWI in the teens, very few am designs were done.

I liken it to the computer sales industry two decades ago. Back then, there were some mom and pop stores and a few chains opening up, not to mention Dell in mail order.  Not many of those are around today and the whole process is a lot more streamlined and customers more savvy as it sorts out.

Just from the buyer perspective in 1910 it might have been daunting to choose a gca.  You had the amateurs and any number of Scottish Pros, including Bendelow who Spalding would send out for a song, which had to be tempting.

Sorry to thread hijack, but this is pre-coffee, pre golf Saturday morning.......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #71 on: September 11, 2010, 09:11:50 AM »
George Crump had the sense to hire H.S. Colt, arguably the best architect in the world. George Thomas laid out his first design in 1904, and it was a rudimentary 9-holer on a farm. I'm certain the others have similar stories and backgrounds.

By in large by 1910, if you had any intelligence and you aspired for anything good, you hired a professional/architect or a seasoned amateur. Are you trying to make the case the people at Merion were idiots?

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #72 on: September 11, 2010, 09:14:31 AM »
Ah, nothing like the old question and question format to spark a discussion!

TMac,

What I take from your extensive list is that the notion of just how gca was going to be performed was evolving, but evolving towards the professional way of doing things quite quickly.  Even TePaul admits that the era of the amateur sportsman gca was quite limited in duration and scope, pretty much to the dozen or so courses he typically mentions.  Certainly after WWI in the teens, very few am designs were done.

I liken it to the computer sales industry two decades ago. Back then, there were some mom and pop stores and a few chains opening up, not to mention Dell in mail order.  Not many of those are around today and the whole process is a lot more streamlined and customers more savvy as it sorts out.

Just from the buyer perspective in 1910 it might have been daunting to choose a gca.  You had the amateurs and any number of Scottish Pros, including Bendelow who Spalding would send out for a song, which had to be tempting.

Sorry to thread hijack, but this is pre-coffee, pre golf Saturday morning.......

Jeff
As usual your take on history (and TEP's) is completely twisted and inaccurate.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 09:37:06 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #73 on: September 11, 2010, 09:23:59 AM »
The 'professional' architects are in bold. One of things that strikes about this list there is only one golf course west of the Mississippi. I'm wondering if I missed something out west.

Atlanta Athletic Club - T.Bendelow (1908), H.Barker (1910)

Beverly - G.O'Neil (1908)

Chicago - CB.Macdonald/HJ.Whigham/J.Foulis (1895), D.Foulis (1910)

Homewood - HJ.Tweedie/J.Pearson (1901), W.Watson (1910)

Ravisloe - J.Foulis (1901), R.White (1903), W.Watson/A.Bauer (1910)

Belmont Springs - D.Ross (1908)

The Country Club - W.Campbell (1894), A.Campbell/H.Windeler (1899), H.Windeler (1910)

Essex County - W.Campbell (1894), D.Ross (1910)

Myopia Hunt - W.Campbell (1894), H.Leeds (1899-1907)

Minikahda - W.Watson/D.Foulis (1899), J.Jaffray/R.Taylor (1906)

Atlantic City - J.Reid (1897), H.Barker (1909)

Baltusrol - L.Keller (1895), T.Gourlay (1896), G.Low (1908-10)

Englewood - J.Hobens (1905)

Apawamis - T.Bendelow (1899), H.Strong (1906-10)

Fox Hills - P.King/D.Brown (1901)

Garden City - D.Emmet/G.Hubbell/A.Findlay (1899), W.Travis (1906-1910)

National - CB.Macdonald/D.Emmet/HJ.Whigham (1909)

Nassau - H.Murdock (1899)

Salisbury - D.Emmet (1908)

Pinehurst #2 - D.Ross/W.Travis (1907)

Mayfield - H.Barker (1909)

Waverly - H.Barker (1910)

Oakmont - H.Fownes (1903)

Ekwanok - JD.Dunn (1899), W.Travis (1905)

Columbia - H.Barker (1910)
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 09:33:50 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #74 on: September 11, 2010, 09:36:36 AM »
Tom,

I don't understand the characterizations?

By your own very Barker-biased  list the very top courses of the time in the US were all either totally or heavily designed by amateurs who usually belonged to the clubs involved.

We've already gone through the documentation about Crump, and a lot of his routing was done before Colt's arrival and much changed after his departure.   Your continued mis-characterization of that situation belies true history.

Most of the courses in Philadelphia in 1910 or thereabouts had a strong amateur influence or design.   Philly Cricket was mostly Samuel Heebner, Herman Strouse was already highly involved in Philmont, Tillinghast and Klaudner were building a new course for Aronimink, George Fowle had designed most of the Philly Country Club and soon had revisions by E.K. Bispham, Ab Smith at Huntingdon Valley, Heebner and Thomas at Whitemarsh and so on.

The very early Philly courses by pros were done mostly by John Reid, Willie Campbell, a very few by Findlay (he didn't live there yet), and Willie Tucker and they just were not very good and quickly proved inadequate Tom.  

It is therefore no surprise at all that these amateur guys had the time, motive, and opportunity to design courses for themselves Tom and it's very well documented history.   This continued through the teens and 20s as many local courses were designed by amateurs like Frank Meehan and Ed Clarey and Hugh Wilson and Herman Strouse and Ab Smith, with many as collaborative efforts, like Pine Valley and Cobb's Creek and later revisions to North Hills.

After watchiing competitive friends like Leeds and Travis and Emmet and Macdonald do the same thing for their clubs, there was no reason for these very successful men who loved the game to think they couldn't do the same thing for their own.

If it would help, I could show you the early design lineage of every prominent Philadelphia course during this time period.   I would agree that beginning somewhere around 1910 til WWI or so some more pros were beginning to be brought in, primarily Donald Ross, but both amateur and pro design motifs co-existed well into the 20s in the region, with the major pros post-war being Flynn, and Ross, with surprisingly little Tilly, who was off making a name for himself in other cities.

I'm not sure why you want to deny this well-documented history Tom.   You should really have read many of the articles Joe Bausch produced here over the past three years in this regard, Tom...it's been absolutely stellar stuff that makes it all very clear.

Whatever work early pros like Barker did near Philly for clubs like Springhaven and Atlantic City didn't last long, and was never much heralded locally.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 09:39:42 AM by MCirba »

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