[Tom MacWood]

It was a coin flip between Woodland and Belmont Springs. "Bunker Hill's" opinion swayed me. In 1910, at a time when all the top Boston courses were trying to upgrade and modernize, he said Woodlands was more interested in satisfying their members than fighting for a first class links.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Another good source might be the reviews and criticisms of American courses that a number of visiting foreign golf luminaries during that period.   

I did: Hutchinson, Darwin, Leach, Reid, Vardon, Worthington, etc

[BCrosby]

Tom -

The Atlanta Athletic Club (East Lake) shouldn't be on your list. It might have been one of the better courses in the SE circa 1910, but that wasn't saying much. Dissatisfaction with it led to a total rebuild by Adair, with some help from Barker, MacDonald and Harry Atkinson in the spring and summer of 1913. That same summer Adair also designed and built Capital City (Brookhaven) and Druid Hills, again with some help from Barker. All three of Adair's courses were highly thought of at the time, but that time was post-1910.

The list of best ccourses in the SE circa 1910 probably starts with P'hurst No. 2 or Palmetto in Aiken.

Bob

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Thanks, and I agree that it's a good, representative sample of the best courses in the US at that time although I'm sure we'd have quibbles if I dug deeper but I don't think that's the point we want to discuss.

I think you'd agree that overall the bar was set pretty low at that point.

Also, it's tough to get a gauge on the architectural quality and sophistication of a number of courses that opened right around 1909/1910 in terms of how good they were at inception versus improvements that took place during the evolution over the next number of years.

A better question might be simply, how many US courses in the state they were in during 1910 approached the architectural level of the best courses abroad?

I think that's clearly where only Myopia, Garden City, NGLA, and perhaps one or two others (perhaps trying to name a "Top 5" might be a good exercise?) were generally referenced in the same breath as the class of the league, so to speak.

p.s. Regarding NGLA...still not sure how the opening date is determined to be 1909 when according to George Bahto and other accounts a "soft" Invitational Tournament opening took place in July 1910, with the club opening to members in 1911, but let's not fuss over that.   The greater point is that even unopened it was clearly one of the very best in the US.

[Peter Pallotta]

They held the golfing events for the 1904 Olympics at Glen Echo Golf Club in St. Louis, Missouri (does that mean is was good?) - the previously mentioned George Lyons from Lambton in Toronto won the gold medal.

And speaking of Canadian courses, Colt hadn't started work on either Toronto or Hamilton by 1910, but the club website says that Lambton's first course was ready to go in 1903 - designed by Lyons "with assistance" from Bendelow.

Peter   

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom Mac,

I'm having a hard time understanding your reasoning in not including 6 courses that hosted U.S. Opens between 1895-1910 in your Top 25 listing. Maybe 1 opr 2 would be reasonable, even 3, but 6 of them?

You leave out:

Philadelphia Cricket Club
Onwentsia Club
Glen View Club
Baltimore Country Club
Shinnecock Hills Golf Club
Newport Country Club

May I ask what you used as a measuring stick to decide? I recognize that it is simply your list and your opinion so this isn't a case of right and wrong, but rather one of understanding at how you arrived at your list and why you place some of the courses that you did over these others. 

[Mac Plumart]

.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom -

The Atlanta Athletic Club (East Lake) shouldn't be on your list. It might have been one of the better courses in the SE circa 1910, but that wasn't saying much. Dissatisfaction with it led to a total rebuild by Adair, with some help from Barker, MacDonald and Harry Atkinson in the spring and summer of 1913. That same summer Adair also designed and built Capital City (Brookhaven) and Druid Hills, again with some help from Barker. All three of Adair's courses were highly thought of at the time, but that time was post-1910.

The list of best ccourses in the SE circa 1910 probably starts with P'hurst No. 2 or Palmetto in Aiken.

Bob

Bob
What good golf course during this period wasn't dissatisfied? If they weren't dissatisfied at some point they ain't on this list.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Thanks, and I agree that it's a good, representative sample of the best courses in the US at that time although I'm sure we'd have quibbles if I dug deeper but I don't think that's the point we want to discuss.

I think you'd agree that overall the bar was set pretty low at that point.

Also, it's tough to get a gauge on the architectural quality and sophistication of a number of courses that opened right around 1909/1910 in terms of how good they were at inception versus improvements that took place during the evolution over the next number of years.

A better question might be simply, how many US courses in the state they were in during 1910 approached the architectural level of the best courses abroad?

I think that's clearly where only Myopia, Garden City, NGLA, and perhaps one or two others (perhaps trying to name a "Top 5" might be a good exercise?) were generally referenced in the same breath as the class of the league, so to speak.

p.s. Regarding NGLA...still not sure how the opening date is determined to be 1909 when according to George Bahto and other accounts a "soft" Invitational Tournament opening took place in July 1910, with the club opening to members in 1911, but let's not fuss over that.   The greater point is that even unopened it was clearly one of the very best in the US.

Are you concerned about supporting previous claim?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom Mac,

I'm having a hard time understanding your reasoning in not including 6 courses that hosted U.S. Opens between 1895-1910 in your Top 25 listing. Maybe 1 opr 2 would be reasonable, even 3, but 6 of them?

You leave out:

Philadelphia Cricket Club
Onwentsia Club
Glen View Club
Baltimore Country Club
Shinnecock Hills Golf Club
Newport Country Club

May I ask what you used as a measuring stick to decide? I recognize that it is simply your list and your opinion so this isn't a case of right and wrong, but rather one of understanding at how you arrived at your list and why you place some of the courses that you did over these others.  

Other than the fact the hosted the Open why should I consider any of those golf courses?

Years of research. If you don't like my list make your own.

[Mac Plumart]

Phil Young asks Tom MacWood, "May I ask what you used as a measuring stick to decide?"

To which he replies, "Years of research. If you don't like my list make your own."

Great discussion group, huh?   

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

I treated you and your list with respect. That you simply slough off an honest question is absurd. "Years of research" tells you that more than half of the clubs that hosted the first 15 years of US Opens weren't of sufficient quality to merit consideration as among the top 25 courses of 1910?

It's obvious that you gave them no consideration based upon your answer "Other than the fact the hosted the Open why should I consider any of those golf courses?" The fact that they HOSTED the Open means they do deserve strong consideration.

Still, one can hardly notice how 5 of your 25 courses has the name of HH Barker attached top them. You challenge Mike's assertion on another thread that the best courses in America were designed by amateur/sportsmen architects, yet on another thread you stated quite clearly that HH Barker was among the best golf course architects in America at the time. Couldn't one claim that you are merely padding your own claim? Yet that is NOT what I am doing. I am asking a simple question that does deserve an answer if you want your "list" to be considered as a serious one instead of somethiong you just cobbled together.

I am convinced that you honestly believe this list to be accurate and defensable, yet again, I'm not even asking you to defend a single one of the courses, but rather to explain how you came about your conclusions that these 25 stand above all others. Think about it. You ripped into Mike for claiming that he believed that Cobbs Creek was the best public course built before the Depression, yet you seem quite taken aback that you would make a quite similar type statement here, that these courses and no others were the best.

Lighten up a little... I asked an honest question. If you don't want to answer it, all well and good. Just say so and treat me with the respect that my question deserved... 
 

[Tom MacWood]

Phil-the-author
Other than the fact those courses hosted the Open why should I consider any of those golf courses? Are you familiar with their reputations circa 1910?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Mot sure I even want to get into this, but perhaps it might be more beneficial if you tell us which of the other 22 courses on your list would you consider in the league in terms of architectural quality and sophistication with either Myopia, NGLA, and/or Garden City as they stood in 1910 and why?

Thanks.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Mot sure I even want to get into this, but perhaps it might be more beneficial if you tell us which of the other 22 courses on your list would you consider in the league in terms of architectural quality and sophistication with either Myopia, NGLA, and/or Garden City as they stood in 1910 and why?

Thanks.

Pinehurst #2, Ekwanok, Chicago, Mayfield, Columbia, Oakmont, Baltusrol, Brookline, Apawamis, Sailsbury and Essex County.

[Tom MacWood]

The 'professional' architects are in bold.

Atlanta Athletic Club - T.Bendelow (1908), H.Barker (1910)

Beverly - G.O'Neil (1908)

Chicago - CB.Macdonald/HJ.Whigham/J.Foulis (1895), D.Foulis (1910)

Homewood - HJ.Tweedie/J.Pearson (1901), W.Watson (1910)

Ravisloe - J.Foulis (1901), R.White (1903), W.Watson/A.Bauer (1910)

Belmont Springs - D.Ross (1908)

The Country Club - W.Campbell (1894), A.Campbell/H.Windeler (1899), H.Windeler (1910)

Essex County - W.Campbell (1894), D.Ross (1910)

Myopia Hunt - W.Campbell (1894), H.Leeds (1899-1907)

Minikahda - W.Watson/D.Foulis (1899), J.Jaffray/R.Taylor (1906)

Atlantic City - J.Reid (1897), H.Barker (1909)

Baltusrol - L.Keller (1895), T.Gourlay (1896), G.Low (1908-10)

Englewood - J.Hobens (1905)

Apawamis - T.Bendelow (1899), H.Strong (1906-10)

Fox Hills - P.King/D.Brown (1901)

Garden City - D.Emmet/G.Hubbell/A.Findlay (1899), W.Travis (1906-1910)

National - CB.Macdonald/D.Emmet/HJ.Whigham (1909)

Nassau - H.Murdock (1899)

Salisbury - D.Emmet (1908)

Pinehurst #2 - D.Ross/W.Travis (1907)

Mayfield - H.Barker (1909)

Waverly - H.Barker (1910)

Oakmont - H.Fownes (1903)

Ekwanok - JD.Dunn (1899), W.Travis (1905)

Columbia - H.Barker (1910)

[Mike Cirba]

Wow Tom..do you really think so?

Do you give Travis credit for any of Pinehurst at that time and who would you say was mostly responsible for the course at Brookline by 1910?

[Tom MacWood]

I just gave Travis credit, and Windeler deserves major credit at Brookline. What do you think this exercise says about professional and amateur architects in 1910?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom the Mac,

You asked, "Other than the fact those courses hosted the Open why should I consider any of those golf courses?"

That is reason enough as I said previously. The real question, which I have asked, now for the third time, is why DON'T you think they deserve consideration and what do you base your decisions for the other courses on?

"Are you familiar with their reputations circa 1910?"

Yes.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom the Mac,

You asked, "Other than the fact those courses hosted the Open why should I consider any of those golf courses?"

That is reason enough as I said previously. The real question, which I have asked, now for the third time, is why DON'T you think they deserve consideration and what do you base your decisions for the other courses on?

"Are you familiar with their reputations circa 1910?"

Yes.

What did Darwin write about Onwentsia and Glen View? And what was the result of his critique?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

I'll be more than happy to answer your questions AFTER you answer mine. I am not on here to argue, but to discuss. If you don't want to discuss the aspect of the subject I raised than simply say so and I won't post again on it...

[Tom MacWood]

Because they were considered outdated, too short and too easy by people like Darwin.

[Mike Cirba]

I just gave Travis credit, and Windeler deserves major credit at Brookline. What do you think this exercise says about professional and amateur architects in 1910?


Tom,

I do appreciate your efforts to bring some of the early, largely unknown pros to our attention, and in the case of Barker, I'd agree that most weren't aware that he did some good work in this time period.

But, to answer your question, I'd clearly stick to my contention that not only were the best three courses of the time...NGLA, Myopia, and Garden City...designed by amateurs, but would also state that most of the second tier courses of the time...Pinehurst, Ekwanok, Brookline, and Oakmont were also largely the work of amateurs like Windber, Travis, and Fownes.

Didn't Travis also re-do much of Columbia shortly after 1910, as well?

[Tom MacWood]

Travis did redesign Columbia in preparation of the 1921 US Open. Travis was Barker's partner and mentor; Barker left the country in 1915. The routing remained the same.

Since you are unable to answer my question I'll tell you what I see regarding architecture circa 1910: professional architects and amateur architects with major experience dominated. Golf architecture advanced to the point where there were no inexperienced, untested architects operating in 1910.  

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

"Because they were considered outdated, too short and too easy by people like Darwin."

Well, the USGA certainly disagreed with Mr. Darwin, at least in the case of the Philadelphia Cricket Club which hosted TWO U.S. Opens, in 1907 and in your pivotal year of 1910.

You also stated, "Golf architecture advanced to the point where there were no inexperienced, untested architects operating in 1910." 

Nonsense! A.W. Tillinghast was both inexperienced and untested and yet had designed Shawnee by late 1909 and was overseeing its construction throughout 1910 and had done neither before those years.

Again, you have no problem taking others to task for citing absolutes and yet expect that your own use of them is unimpeachable. I would agree that MOST of the better to great courses in the U.S. that opened between 1911-1920 were done by professional architects and that after 1920 it was very rare to find anything substantial done by an amateur architect.

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