[Tom MacWood]

"Why do you see that as unusual, considering that in 1910, ALL OF THE courses in the United States that were deemed to be of top-quality were done by club amateurs themselves?"

~~Mike Cirba

[Mac Plumart]

Tom...I am sure you know better than I do, but I would imagine that the courses the US Open were played on would have to be considered first class.  Here is a list of the courses the US Open was played on from 1895 to 1910.

Philadelphia Cricket Club
Englewood Golf Club
Myopia Hunt Club
Onwentsia Club
Glen View Club
Baltusrol Golf Club
Garden City Golf Club  
Chicago Golf Club
Baltimore Country Club
Shinnecock Hills Golf Club
Newport Country Club

[Bill_McBride]

National Golf Links was open by 1910.

[Ronald Montesano]

Yo, Macarther...you forgot Country Club of Buffalo on yo' list.  1912.  'course, it's not the same course anymore, although elements of the Open course still exist.

[TEPaul]

Mac:

You mentioned the US Open between 1895 and 1910. According to its history there is something of an interesting aspect with Myopia and the US Open in those years. Myopia held four US Opens between 1898 and 1908 but the amateur/sportsman member/architect of the course, Herbert C. Leeds, essentially declined to hold a US Amateur during that time believing that the club (not necessarily the course) was not ready for that tournament yet. His primary concern was that the accommodations and the locker-room were not yet suitable enough. It is no secret he was something of a self-admitted martinet.

How times have changed!

[Mac Plumart]

Well Tom P. that is very interesting.  With that in mind, here is a list of the courses the Am was played on during that time frame.

1910 The Country Club William C. Fownes Jr.  United States 4 & 3  Warren Wood
1909 Chicago Golf Club Robert A. Gardner  United States 4 & 3  Chandler Egan
1908 Garden City Golf Club Jerome Travers  United States 8 & 7  Max H. Behr
1907 Euclid Club Jerome Travers  United States 6 & 5  Archibald Graham
1906 Englewood Golf Club Eben Byers  United States 2 up  George Lyon
1905 Chicago Golf Club Chandler Egan  United States 6 & 5  Daniel Sawyer
1904 Baltusrol Golf Club Chandler Egan  United States 8 & 6  Fred Herreshoff
1903 Nassau Country Club Walter Travis  United States 5 & 4  Eben Byers
1902 Glen View Club Louis N. James  United States 4 & 2  Eben Byers
1901 Atlantic City Country Club Walter Travis  United States 5 & 4  Walter Egan
1900 Garden City Golf Club Walter Travis  United States 2 up  Findlay S. Douglas
1899 Onwentsia Club H. M. Harriman  United States 3 & 2  Findlay S. Douglas
1898 Morris County Golf Club Findlay S. Douglas  Scotland 5 & 3  Walter B. Smith
1897 Chicago Golf Club H. J. Whigham  Scotland 8 & 6  W. Rossiter Betts
1896 Shinnecock Hills Golf Club H. J. Whigham  Scotland 8 & 7  Joseph G. Thorp
1895 Newport Country Club Charles B. Macdonald  United States 12 & 11  Charles Sands

I left the year and participants in the finals as I thought that was interesting as well.

[TEPaul]

Mac:

Some of those final matches look like blowouts but I should remind you I believe throughout those years the finals of the US Amateur were all over 36 holes.

Also, I'm not sure if the point of this thread was to indicate that the top courses in America by 1910 were not all designed by that amateur/sportsman contingent.

However, I think it was generally considered that before NGLA the top three courses in the USA were designed by those amateur/sportsmen. That would be Chicago GC, GCGC and Myopia. A lot of people seemed to say that back then including Charles B. Macdonald.

[Tom MacWood]

The US Amateur was just as important as the US Open, and the Western Am and Open were not far behind, as were the Metropolitan Am and Open. A couple of problems with just looking at courses that hosted those events from the 1890s to 1910, there were significant advancements in architecture around 1910, a course that hosted the event in the 1890s may not be of the same quality as one who hosted in 1910. The other problem a number of golf courses built circa 1910 hosted event in 1911, 1912, etc.

[Mac Plumart]

Tom M...

I find this comment extremely interesting...

"there were significant advancements in architecture around 1910, a course that hosted the event in the 1890s may not be of the same quality as one who hosted in 1910."

Perhaps you will dig into it on this thread, but my interest at this time in that comment is due to research I am doing regarding courses that were ranked highly in the past but have fallen in their ranking/regard over time. 

You talk about advancements in archcitecture, I'd love to hear about that.  I've also found "rennovations" seem to hurt courses from time to time.  Tastes certainly change as artificial hazards were in vogue in the late 1800's (stone walls for instance), but they are not acceptable now. 

Anyway, I am interested to see where you are going with this thread.

 

[Tom MacWood]

There were major architectural advancements in Britain from 1900 to 1910, and the US was about a decade behind. Their were a number of major designs and redesigns in the US from 1908 to 1910.

[Mike Cirba]

Pinehurst #2 should be considered here.

[Phil_the_Author]

What I think is quite interesting is how many of the courses one considers great in 1910 still remain so today. And how many of these were either entirely redesigned or partly in a major way within the next 20 years and in ALMOST every case the work was done by a professional architect...

[JC Jones]

Yo, Macarther...you forgot Country Club of Buffalo on yo' list.  1912.  'course, it's not the same course anymore, although elements of the Open course still exist.

Thread asked for courses in 1910.  1912 came after 1910.

[David Whitmer]

I believe Oakmont opened in 1903. I would add that to the list.

[TEPaul]

David Whitmer:

I think I would too. Some on here, however, don't think Oakmont was very good in the beginning or perhaps until the late teens or early 1920s. I'm not sure I would say that since the 1903 drawing of the course (apparently preconstruction) shows a remarkable similarity to the way the course still is without of course the present length and without the massive amounts of bunkers that we know were added gradually through the years by the Fownes family.

[Mike Cirba]

Does anyone know if Oakmont's grrens were ever redesigned/reconfigured or have they been similar since inception?

It does seem many were perhaps square early on from the schematic Joe recently found, but I'm talking more internal contours,

[john_stiles]

Pinehurst ?  Dunno.  Didn't Pinehurst, Pinehurst #2, have sand greens in 1910.   If so, I think Pinehurst is out.

Tom, you have been active in the period of 1910-1911 quite a bit.  Maybe you should be advanced to 2010.

Hence as Tom MacMetal or someone mentioned,  seems like tournament courses in WGA rota should be put in the hopper for sorting.

[john_stiles]

WGA events were 'probably' at courses considered to be 'top.'

Western Amateur

1899 Glen View Club
1900 Onwentsia Golf Club
1901 Midlothian CC
1902 Chicago GC
1903 Euclid Club
1904 Exmoor CC
1905 Glen View Club
1906 Glen Echo CC
1907 Chicago GC
1908 Arsenal GC
1909 Homewood CC
1910 Minikahda Club
   
   
Western Open

1899 Glen View Club
1900 No tournament
1901 Midlothian Country Club
1902 Euclid Club
1903 Milwaukee Country Club
1904 Kent Country Club
1905 Cincinnati Golf Club
1906 Homewood Country Club
1907 Hinsdale Golf Club
1908 Normandie Golf Club
1909 Skokie Country Club
1910 Beverly Country Club

[Bill_McBride]

Chandler Egan was a real stud too, with victories in 1904 and 1905.

Here's some bio:  http://www.oga.org/docs/HoganCup/Egan_Frame.htm

Apparently he grew up in Chicago, where he was a member of Exmoor Golf Club, and attended Harvard.

All of his course design work was done in Monterey and the Pacific Northwest.  For whatever reason, this web page does not give him credit for any work at Pebble Beach.   http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/h-chandler-egan.html

He reached the semifinals of the 1929 U.S. Amateur at Pebble Beach, where Bobby Jones was knocked out in the first round.

[Tom MacWood]

I think both Oakmont and Pinehurst would be considered among the top courses in 1910.

[DMoriarty]

Early on I think it is fair to say that the US Amateur was considered the much bigger event than the US Open.  I am not sure exactly when this perception began to change.  For the first three years the US Open was only 36 holes, and was played the day after the US Amateur finished, on the same course.  I don't remember the exact source, but I recall reading one period paper which stated that the Western Amateur was second in importance only to the USOpen.

. . . here is a list of the courses the Am was played on during that time frame.

1910 The Country Club William C. Fownes Jr. (Oakmont)  United States 4 & 3  Warren Wood (Homewood,
1909 Chicago Golf Club Robert A. Gardner  United States 4 & 3  Chandler Egan
1908 Garden City Golf Club Jerome Travers  United States 8 & 7  Max H. Behr
1907 Euclid Club Jerome Travers  United States 6 & 5  Archibald Graham
1906 Englewood Golf Club Eben Byers  United States 2 up  George Lyon
1905 Chicago Golf Club Chandler Egan  United States 6 & 5  Daniel Sawyer
1904 Baltusrol Golf Club Chandler Egan  United States 8 & 6  Fred Herreshoff
1903 Nassau Country Club Walter Travis  United States 5 & 4  Eben Byers
1902 Glen View Club Louis N. James  United States 4 & 2  Eben Byers
1901 Atlantic City Country Club Walter Travis  United States 5 & 4  Walter Egan
1900 Garden City Golf Club Walter Travis  United States 2 up  Findlay S. Douglas
1899 Onwentsia Club H. M. Harriman  United States 3 & 2  Findlay S. Douglas
1898 Morris County Golf Club Findlay S. Douglas  Scotland 5 & 3  Walter B. Smith
1897 Chicago Golf Club H. J. Whigham  Scotland 8 & 6  W. Rossiter Betts
1896 Shinnecock Hills Golf Club H. J. Whigham  Scotland 8 & 7  Joseph G. Thorp
1895 Newport Country Club Charles B. Macdonald  United States 12 & 11  Charles Sands

. . . Now, I presume that by 1895, CBM played his golf out of Chicago Golf.  And I know where the Egans played their golf (Exmoor) and I know that Whigham played at Onwentsia before moving back east.  Obviously, Travis played out of Garden City and Behr played out of Lakeside.  and Fownes is obvious, too. Findlay S. Douglas was a a big deal and a founding member of NGLA, but I have no idea where he played at the turn of the century when he appears to have been a stud.    But that's pretty much all I know.

Who here can fill in the blanks.  Who here knows where the rest of these guys played their golf ?

I was curious about Shivas' question so I looked it up their reported clubs for the time period in which they made the finals . . .

W. C. Fownes  - Oakmont, Pittsburg, PA
Warren K. Wood - Homewood, IL
Robert A. Gardner - Hinsdale, IL
H. Chandler Egan - Exmoor, IL
Jerome Travers - Montclair, NJ
Max Behr - Morris County, NJ
Archibald Graham -  New Jersey CC, NJ
Eben M. Byers - Allegheny CC, Pittsburg, PA
George Lyon - Lambton GC, Toronto, Canada
D.E. Sawyer - Wheaton GC, IL
Fred Herreshoff - Ekwonak, VT*
L.N. James - Glen View, IL
Walter Travis -  Garden City, NY
Walter Egan - Exmoor, IL
Herbert Harriman - Meadow Brook, NY
Findlay Douglas - Fairfield, CT
W.B. Smith - Onwentsia, IL
H.J. Whigham - Onwentsia, IL
W. Rossiter Betts - Shinnecock Hills, NY
H. G. Thorp - Cambridge GC, MA
Macdonald - Chicago GC, IL
Charles Sands - St. Andrews GC, NY

*Herreshoff also played out of Garden City (and later NGLA) but was listed as playing out of Ekwonak at the 1904 Am.
[Both H.J. Whigham and Findlay Douglas were Scottish.   CBM was born in Ontario, raised in Chicago, but learned the game in Scotland in his teens.  Travis was Australian but learned the game in the US.]

So, in the first 16 US Amateurs through 1910, there were 22 winners and runners-up through 1910, nine (9) played out of the Chicago area, four (4) out out of New York, three (3) out of New Jersey, two (2) out of the Pittsburg area, and one (1) each out of Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, and Toronto, Canada.

It may be overly generous, but if we credit Herreshoff to Garden City, and consider New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut all to me the New York City area, then it is Chicago and New York with nine (9) each, Pittsburg with two (2).

Not sure what it says about golf architecture, but the Chicago area courses were certainly producing more than their fair share of top Amateurs.   

[Mike Cirba]

Re: Pinehurst during this time period...

Jim Kennedy turned me onto this awesome 1920 article by Walter Travis that speaks to his role in the 1906 "scientific bunkering" of Pinehurst #2.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1920/ag2333f.pdf

Also,

A March 11th, 1911 Philadelphia Press article titled "30 Quakers Tramp Pinehurst Links - Philadelphians Help Swell Army of Golf Enthusiasts at Southern Resort to 800" was but a sample of the type of ongoing enthusiasm and consistent support for Pinehurst among golfers in Philadelphia, as well as nationwide.

From the article;

"The number of Philadelphians who come here yearly is increasing steadily as there is no place in the South which compares to Pinehurst when it comes to golf.  At one of the hotels there are more than 400 golfers quartered and it is safe to say that oever the three courses more than 800 golfers may be found any bright day."

"The Spring tournament, which ended today, was responsible for the second largest entry list in the history of golf.   The entries numbered 241 and this was beaten in only one tournament - the Transmississippi at Denver a few years ago.   Here, 228 actually played, which is a new record.  This is remarkable in view of the fact that the weather was down to freezing and a stiff gale blew across the course."

"There are three distinct, great eighteen-hole courses here, which is true of no other place in the world except the R&A Golf Club of St. Andrews, Scotland.   A fourth has been staked out and will be in readiness next Spring.   The most famous of these courses is the No. 2 course, laid out by Donald Ross and Walter J. Travis.  They did not plan it together, but each coincided with the other's suggestions.   The only change suggested by Travis and which was adopted was the omissions of cross bunkers.   The ground is rolling and the grass on the fairway is Bermuda grass, the only kind that is possible in most golf resorts in the South."

"The putting greens are of clay foundation and covered with sand.   The greens are flat and as there are no worm casts, perfect putting is always possible.   The greens are watered for a radius of a few feet from the hole and men are employed to do nothing else but water the greens and drag a roll of carpet over them to remove all traces of heel marks."

While this article and architectural attributions are noteworthy to point out the popularity of Pinehurst during these early years, it doesnt speak necessarily to the architectural sophistication that was found there.

However, the following article from the May 1912 American Golfer does;

"After one of the most unprofitable—from a golfer's point of view—winter, Philadelphia extended a warm greeting to spring. It has been years since the links of the Quaker City have been so unplayable as the period from Christmas until the latter part of March.  An occasional day was the only respite from weeks of the worst possible sort of weather."

"One thing will be noted by visitors from other cities whether they play over such excellent eighteen hole courses as Huntingdon Valley and the Philadelphia Cricket Clubs as representing the larger organizations or the two dozen or more courses of nine holes and that is the growing tendency to improve in a more scientific manner the courses around Philadelphia. "

"Time was when changes were made in a sort of a hit or miss manner. Today every trap or pit that is constructed means something definite and with it all has come the scientific construction of bunkers and hazards.  Time was when the green committee built courses on a broad principle of the greatest good to the greatest number and as the greatest number in every golfing organization is the dub or indifferent player, the really good player suffered.  As the chairman of the green committee of one of the largest courses recently expressed himself: "A few years ago we used to post the changes proposed. This met with so much opposition that we were forced to take a couple of days in the week when we were sure that the bulk of the players would not be on the course and then we started to construct a course that would help the good player and do no great injury to the poor player.  Nowadays, fortunately, we are able to make changes without feeling that we would be subjected to the severest sort of criticism.""

"There is no doubt that the Southern courses have done wonders for golfing conditions around Philadelphia.  It is not so many years ago that very few players took two weeks off in mid winter to play golf in the south.   Where one player went South five years ago, twenty go now.  Pinehurst, in particular has worked wonders. Hundreds of men who have always played a rather indifferent game have gone to Pinehurst and have been confronted with golf courses constructed on scientific principles where traps and pits have been placed in spots because good golf demanded their presence there."

"The result has been that the indifferent, careless player found that every shot he made demanded study and care and the golf there brought out the best in him. When he got back to the home heath he began to realize that one of the reasons he had not been playing better golf was because his own course was constructed on rather slip shod lines, on the one hand, or built on lines to suit him and scores of other players who insisted that the course should not be made any harder than it was. He realized for the first time that his wild shots were not penalized, that many of his approaches should have been punished but were not. The realizing sense finally came to him that he had not been playing golf but had simply used the paraphernalia of the game in a very bungling fashion."

"As a direct result scores of the indifferent players who have received their real golf education in the south have gone to the green committees and frankly and freely confessed that their theories were all wrong and asked them to stiffen the course. They now realize that it is impossible to play good golf over an inferior course and that a good course does not hamper their game but actually helps it."

"At any event, the golfing renaissance in Philadelphia has actually begun and before many years we shall have courses which are a credit to us and not a mark of good natured chaffing of others who  know what constitutes a good course."  - "Far and Sure" - May 1912

[Tom MacWood]

This would be my top 25 courses circa 1910:

Atlanta Athletic Club - T.Bendelow (1908), H.Barker (1910)

Beverly - G.O'Neil (1908)

Chicago - CB.Macdonald/HJ.Whigham/J.Foulis (1895), D.Foulis (1910)

Homewood - HJ.Tweedie/J.Pearson (1901), W.Watson (1910)

Ravisloe - J.Foulis (1901), R.White (1903), W.Watson/A.Bauer (1910)

Belmont Springs - D.Ross (1908)

The Country Club - W.Campbell (1894), A.Campbell/H.Windeler (1899), H.Windeler (1910)

Essex County - W.Campbell (1894), D.Ross (1910)

Myopia Hunt - W.Campbell (1894), H.Leeds (1899-1907)

Minikahda - W.Watson/D.Foulis (1899), J.Jaffray/R.Taylor (1906)

Atlantic City - J.Reid (1897), H.Barker (1909)

Baltusrol - L.Keller (1895), T.Gourlay (1896), G.Low (1908-10)

Englewood - J.Hobens (1905)

Apawamis - T.Bendelow (1899), H.Strong (1906-10)

Fox Hills - P.King/D.Brown (1901)

Garden City - D.Emmet/G.Hubbell/A.Findlay (1899), W.Travis (1906-1910)

National - CB.Macdonald/D.Emmet/HJ.Whigham (1909)

Nassau - H.Murdock (1899)

Salisbury - D.Emmet (1908)

Pinehurst #2 - D.Ross (1907)

Mayfield - H.Barker (1909)

Waverly - H.Barker (1910)

Oakmont - H.Fownes (1903)

Ekwanok - JD.Dunn (1899), W.Travis (1905)

Columbia - H.Barker (1910)

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Without getting into particulars of any of the others right now, any consideration of Woodlands in MA?

Most accounts I've read seem to indicate it was fairly well-regarded at that time.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Another good source might be the reviews and criticisms of American courses that a number of visiting foreign golf luminaries during that period.   

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