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Mike Cirba

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #400 on: February 04, 2011, 01:09:25 PM »
David,

I have the Whigham article on paper...didn't see the need to scan it for the NGLA thread since it had already appeared here previously and it's a pain in the butt.    I had forgotten that the Whigham article spoke about Leeds and Ekwanok and I think the important point to note that you seem to have missed or else purposefully ignored is that he agrees with my assessment that the few really good courses in 1910 in the US were all either designed or greatly enhanced by amateur architects, which if you go back to the first post on this thread you'll see that my statement evidently caused Tom to start this thread quoting me, evidently to then try and somehow prove my statement wrong.

I'm glad Mr. Whigham concurred with me.

And yes, although he still said they were far from perfect, it was in the spirit of fluffing up NGLA, which of course was the best of them right out of the gate.   Still, as I mentioned previously Garden City, Myopia, and perhaps Ekwanok and Chicago were head and shoulders above everything else in the US in 1910, which makes it stranger still that Tom would try to create a Top 25 here and then pretend there was some equanimity between them.   There certainly was not.

And for what it's worth, I also welcomed others, including Tom, to post any articles on the NGLA thread they felt added to the story.   He could have just emailed me as he did with the Brookline routings and I would have put them up here for him.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 01:13:54 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #401 on: February 04, 2011, 02:33:33 PM »
If you were familiar with the Whigham article, then I am disappointed that you would post the quotes from those advertisements as if Whigham really did think those courses were equal to those overseas.    

I don't understand your methodology or purposes when posting articles.  Again and again post those repetitious and extremely misleading newspaper articles parroting the 1904 CBM letter, yet it is overly burdensome to post a timely article written by one of the those who was actually there and involved?    And you didn't bother to post even the Outing article by CBM, or any of the comprehensive accounts of what happened there.   As I said above, that thread was unfortunately not about NGLA at all.

As for your point, I did miss it and still miss it.  Given that at least three courses (and maybe all four) all had significant involvement from paid architects, I don't take your point at all.  And it wasn't just the Scottish Pros.  Travis was not an amateur architect. He designed courses for a living.  Before the rule change, he was considered an amateur golfer but even this was often questioned as a consequences of his paid travels, his associations with resort courses, and his alleged equipment dealings.   When the USGA decided that professional architects were considered professionals under the rules, they might as well have named it the Travis Rule.  

But it is no use rehashing this debate.  We each know where the other stands.

Your dismissal of Whigham's comments as merely "fluffing" NGLA are questionable, and might speak as much to your objectivity as his.  It wasn't a stretch to say NGLA was well above the rest even before it officially opened, and it wasn't just CBM and HJW who thought so.  In May 1909 Travis mentioned a few new fine American courses (Salisbury Links and Pinehurst) but called NGLA "the finest of all" [American courses,] and said that the terrain and contours at NGLA were the nearest thing approaching the great links abroad.  (Before you claim this too was fluffing, consider that Travis designed and was quite proud of Salisbury Links and he seemed to think he designed Pinehurst as well.)  Also, some of the most notable and knowledgeable golfers and writers in the World (Hutchinson, Darwin, Ben Sayers, Leech, John Anderson, Lees, etc.) put NGLA as far and away the best, and some of these even compared it favorably to the best in the world.

As just one reminder, here is what the famous Ben Sayers of North Berwick had to say about Merion (where his son was the professional and) and NGLA in the August 1914 Golf Illustrated:

 I spent five weeks in your country, and, I must say, I enjoyed my stay immensely. I was made welcome wherever I went, and am only sorry my visit was so short, although I hope to return soon again. My son George is in America, to whom I paid a visit at the Merion Golf Club He likes his position very much, and is quite at home there.  I was very much impressed with the two courses which they have made at Merion. They are very well constructed and the golf is very good indeed.
  I had three days golf over the National course, and I was very highly impressed indeed. I came to the conclusion that the National course is the best course I have ever seen, in fact, I was sorry that I went to see it, because I always thought that St. Andrews was the very best test of golf in the world. But after seeing the National my opinion was altered: I cannot now say that Scotland possesses the best course. Not only is every hole on the National course perfect, but every shot is perfect, and has to be played with great judgment. The architecture of the course is so good and the formation of the greens so natural that the whole place looks as if it was a hundred years old. The course is full of what I call Scotch golf: thinking golf is required for every shot, even more so than at St. Andrews, and I have not played a course where I had to use so many different kinds of clubs, which of course only goes to show what a grand test of golf it must be. I was very much surprised to see such good turf.
  The Redan hole of the National is a wonderful copy of the North Berwick Redan.  It gives one the same feeling when standing on the tee to play the tee-shot.   I think also the Eden hole at St. Andrews is reproduced to a nicety, Straths bunker being very well placed. The last hole is a very good one, and puts me in mind of the first hole at North Berwick, called Point Garry, only the last hole at the National is a little longer. The National course is the last word in golf courses.


Was Mr. Sayers fluffing? One might wonder whether Mr. Sayers comments about Merion were influenced by his son's position there.  I tend to think not.  From the rest of the article (where he was critical of American courses) he seems like he was a straight shooter, and Merion was very good and well constructed.  And surely you don't think he was fluffing NGLA up, do you?  To what purpose?

« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 02:39:56 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #402 on: February 04, 2011, 02:44:01 PM »
David,

I think you just like to argue.

I agreed with you that NGLA was the best course in the US at the time it opened, no question, and thought I said that.

My reference to fluffing meant simply that any negative comments about the other best courses in the US at the time need to be viewed in context of him being directly involved at NGLA and hardly making an unbiased comparison, even if he was correct.

Also, I would say that Sayers was correct...the 1915 version of Merion was not in the same class as the 1915 version of National, nor in the same class as the Merion of 1916, 1924, or 1930 either.

Mike Cirba

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #403 on: February 04, 2011, 02:48:00 PM »
And David...your fingers aren't broken, are they?

If there are articles related to NGLA that you believe bring important facts about the creation of NGLA to light, please feel free to add them to that thread as I asked everyone to do.   

Thanks.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #404 on: February 04, 2011, 02:59:09 PM »
I understand why you made that "fluffing" comment but I think it is inaccurate and misleading. Whigham's comment reflected an honest, commonly held, and seemingly accurate belief that American courses were generally inferior to the better courses abroad, and that NGLA would close that quality gap.

As for the other thread, your motives were apparent from before you even started it, and I didn't want to waste my time muddying up your agenda-driven thread with actual relevant information.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

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