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Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #300 on: September 20, 2010, 10:55:36 PM »

Here's the first and last page of the Apawamis review...the mid pages include more of the same recommending improvements to most every hole...


Mike
Have your heard the phrase, with friends like you who needs enemies? In this case the opposite is true. This 1909 article begins: "Apawamis easily ranks today as the fourth best Metropolitan course..." And this before the course was readied for the 1911 US Amateur. In 1910 the Metropolitan district was the pinnacle of golf architecture in America.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 11:08:45 PM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #301 on: September 20, 2010, 11:05:54 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Totally redesigned means exactly that.   I know you're going to try and tweak Phil with some nonsense about Tilly not COMPLETELY redesigning Baltusrol, and using some work that was done before then by Low and others simply because some hole corridors are the same, but that's a bunch of hooey, as the Baltusrol 100 year anniversary book illustrates.   Do you have it?



I know what totally redesigned means, but completely re-designed from scratch was new to me. I don't have the Baltusrol book, but I am familiar with the project incorporating the old course into the new 36-hole course and total redesign is not accurate. Further more it is a complete distortion to assert the original course was not among the best courses in the country at the time because it was redesigned, there were good reasons why they had to redesign the course to create 36-holes. This is the kind BS that reflects very poorly on you.

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #302 on: September 20, 2010, 11:16:33 PM »
Mike & TEP
There is a photograph of Huntingdon Valley in Geo Thomas's book on page 155. It looks quite a bit better than your photo. The credit for the hole is given to Green Committee, Smith chairman; with advice from Low and Colt. My guess is Low is George Low who was partnered with Tillinghast at the time, and Colt is HS Colt.

Do you guys actually believe the stuff that you spew forth on this site or is this some kind of game you like to play?

Mike Cirba

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #303 on: September 21, 2010, 07:00:23 AM »


Mike
Have your heard the phrase, with friends like you who needs enemies? In this case the opposite is true. This 1909 article begins: "Apawamis easily ranks today as the fourth best Metropolitan course..." And this before the course was readied for the 1911 US Amateur. In 1910 the Metropolitan district was the pinnacle of golf architecture in America.



Tom,


Have you heard the phrase, "in the land of blind men, the one-eyed man is king."?    

Yes, probably if one were to name the best 25 courses in the US in 1910 then Apawamis would be among them.   So what?   There were so few courses of any quality at all that a course that would be a Doak Scale 3 today would probably make that list!

That's the point I think you're not getting here, Tom.   The record of the foreign professionals in the US up to 1910 is one of dreck and sludge.   Of the over 1000 courses already in the ground most ranged from horrid to putrid to simply crude.

Compared to the very best courses in the US at the time...Myopia, Garden City, NGLA...as well as compared to most good courses abroad, courses like Baltusrol and Apawamis and Fox Hills paled in comparison.

THAT is why courses like Garden City and NGLA made such a splash when they were being developed and opened.

As this thread indicates, there was a second tier of courses that probably included Ekwanok, Pinehurst #2, and Oakmont, and possibly one or two others that all were probably equivalent to Doak 4 to 6 at the time, but after that things fell precipitously.

David Moriarty, who seems to be much more realistic than you as regards the work of the old professionals, made an excellent point on a recent post when he described the different states of evolution various courses of the time were in.  He wrote, quite perceptively and historically accurately;

"I'd like to explore it as well, but it is tough to understand what was going on right then.  Everything was changing.   What was considered to be state of the art in the middle of the first decade was outdated five years later.  So very likely some of the courses that were the considered the best in the late aughts might have been considered antiquated shortly thereafter.  So even courses that had been considered good went through significant changes either in the latter part of the first decade or in the beginning of the second."

As to your broader question as to the evolution of the discipline, I think what you have is NGLA which despite its rough conditions was considered above and beyond all the others in terms of quality design, and then two groups of golf courses somewhere below this:

1) The old established courses that may have started out to be very much in the dark ages, but that were making changes to try and keep with the evolving expectations for the courses; and,
2) The new courses, which were being built from scratch.  These were generally based upon what most could consider to be closer to better, more enduring principles of quality design, but were generally young and immature and works-in-project in their own way.

"Over time some of the old established courses did adapt through significant modifications, while others had to start over from scratch.  And of course many of the new courses eventually matured and were considered quite good.   By in 1910 this next wave had begun, but it is perhaps a bit early to see the full impact."


The Fox Hills, Baltusrol, and Apawamis courses all can be seen in this light as they "started out...in the dark ages, but were making changes to try and keep with the evolving expectations."   Over time, the Fox Hills course and early Baltusrol course perished, and Apawamis continued to make any number of changes over time, and today is still a bit of a relic.

I'm looking at a map right now of the 1910 Baltusrol course and one can see exactly the point, which is also described quite well in the article on Baltusrol I posted earlier.   The course is a mix of old and new, with most holes still containing cross-bunkers, and most holes run stick-straight with no turning, no use of angles  or diagnonals, but yet a smattering of more sophisticated bunkering is also in evidence.

I'm not sure what you're talking about when you contend that some of this course made it to the present Baltusrol because that is clearly not true.   Perhaps the corridor of the first and second hole is the same, but after that the course veers along and across today's courses, and bears not a scant resemblance to what Tilly built.

I do hope this makes my point a bit clearer, Tom.

I'm not saying that some of those courses you listed weren't among the best courses in the US at the time.   It's just that 1) compared to the Top three in the US, all designed by amateurs for their own clubs, they fell far short of that standard, and 2) compared to the best courses abroad, they were similarly lacking.  
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 07:02:22 AM by MCirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #304 on: September 21, 2010, 07:10:19 AM »

Mike & TEP
There is a photograph of Huntingdon Valley in Geo Thomas's book on page 155. It looks quite a bit better than your photo. The credit for the hole is given to Green Committee, Smith chairman; with advice from Low and Colt. My guess is Low is George Low who was partnered with Tillinghast at the time, and Colt is HS Colt.

Do you guys actually believe the stuff that you spew forth on this site or is this some kind of game you like to play?


Tom,

That's very interesting.    The photos I re-posted were those David posted of HVGC as it existed after professionals John Reid and Jim Laing got through with it.  

Ab Smith began his work there as head of Green Chairman after 1910, and the fact that 1) The course was obviously horrid before his work, and 2) by 1915 it was considered by Oswald Kirkby to be among the best courses in the country says an enormous amount about the quality of Smith's work there.

You do recognize that Thomas wrote his book over a decade later, in the late 20s, right?  

By that time evidently the firm of Colt and Alison had evidently done something at HVGC, because Daniel Wexler gives credit to the course at Baederwood to them, although it's difficult for me to tell exactly what they did, as we discussed on a previous thread.   For instance, the routing seems identical to what it was in Smith's time, and much of the bunkering in evidence seems to have preceded the time Alison was documented to have been there.  

But no matter...even Thomas's late 1920s caption for the course shows the sure architectural hand of Ab Smith was still firmly at the helm of Huntingdon Valley at that time, and gives due credit, evidently.

By 1915, however, I can post a slew of articles by Tillinghast and others that shows indeed that amateur Ab Smith was the man responsible for all of the wonderful positive changes that happened to the course during that time, such that it elevated it to a position along side other eastern courses like Garden City and NGLA as the best in the east according to Mr. Kirkby.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 07:13:19 AM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #305 on: September 21, 2010, 07:14:23 AM »

Belmont Springs was not open in 1908...not in 1909 either...and in 1910 had a nine-hole course designed by the land owner Willard Robinson, not Donald Ross.   Do I have to cross check all of your work??


Belmont Springs was laid out in 1908 by Donald Ross. The first nine was ready in the fall of 1909, and the second in the fall of 1910. Williard Robinson did not design the golf course. Fred Pickering built it.

"Donald J. Ross, the Oakley professional, his brother Alex, and Alex Findlay have all gone thoroughly over the 212 acres embraced in the property and have expressed their admiration for the natural lay of the land for an ideal golf course and the immense possibilities with small change. To the first named has been awarded the commission of laying out the holes and this week will begin active work towards locating and staking out a 6000-yard links."

~~Boston Globe 7/12/1908

Donald Ross listed Belmont Springs as a golf course he designed on his master list.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 07:37:40 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #306 on: September 21, 2010, 07:24:03 AM »
Tom,

You may be correct, although the pictures associated with this 7 page article from April 1909 show undeveloped land still.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1909/ag16n.pdf

Beyond that, however, I'm still not sure the course was all that highly-regarded, even at that time.   Certainly, even when it held the Massachusetts State Open a few years after opening the praise for the course seemed rather faint.

Here's what the club's website says about their history;

"An 1853 map of the Town of Belmont shows a dwelling on BCC’s site owned by an E. Green. The property was purchased by George H. Cotton about 1872 and named Cotton Place. After Mr. Cotton’s death, Willard E. Robinson purchased the almost 90-acre site and old Colonial house in 1908. The following year he proceeded to layout a nine-hole golf course. Next, Mr. Robinson bought land across Winter Street giving him a total of 211 acres, with enough area to enlarge the course to 18 holes, which was designed by Donald Ross (1872-1948), a new course designer from Dornoch, Scotland and renamed The Belmont Springs Country Club."
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 08:02:05 AM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #307 on: September 21, 2010, 08:34:47 AM »
Tom...interesting list...thank you for punctuating my point.

In 1915 Oswald Kirby ranked the following courses as the best in the East.

National - Designed by a committee of experienced amateurs members in 1907.
Baltusrol - Redesigned George Low, pro in 1910
Garden City - Designed by Emmet and Travis in 1899, amateur members; redesigned by experienced amateur Travis in 1906-10 (assisted by Barker)
Brookline - Largely redesigned by experienced amateur Herbert Windeler in 1910
Myopia - Designed by pro Willie Campbell in 1894; HC Leeds, an amateur member of the club in 1899; he continued to tweek the course over the next decade
Oakmont - Designed by Mr. Fownes in 1903, an amateur member of the club. He continued to tweek the golf course over the years
Ekwanok - Laid out first by John Duncan Dunn, pro, with minor changes by experienced amateur Walter Travis in 1905
Pinehurst #2 - Designed by pro Donald Ross in 1907 with amateur Walter Travis, who claimed credit for the rebunkering strategy
Pinehurst #3 - Designed by pro Donald Ross in 1908
Piping Rock - Designed by experienced Amateur CB Macdonald


In 1910 if you desired anything good you either hired an experienced amateur or a professional.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 09:06:36 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #308 on: September 21, 2010, 08:39:53 AM »
Tom,

Out of arrows, huh?  ;)

Just keep repeating that historically disproven notion and perhaps you may even come to believe it yourself,  ;D

TEPaul

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #309 on: September 21, 2010, 08:40:16 AM »
"Do you guys actually believe the stuff that you spew forth on this site or is this some kind of game you like to play?"



What is it exactly, MacWood, that you think I am spewing forth?

Are you back ten years ago with your ridiculous claim that Pine Valley or Philadelphia or whatever was out to minimize or disrespect the likes of Harry Colt?

What a ridiculous and meaningfully inaccurate suggestion that was on your part!!  ;)

For your information, in the minds of apparently Hugh Wilson and definitely Alan Wilson (and I can document this) as late as the early 1920s Alan Wilson still felt that there probably wasn't an architect in America as good as Harry Colt and the correspondence is pretty plentiful with what the Wilson brothers felt about Hugh Alison too.

Your remarks on here surely are laughable because it appears you can't even competently read or understand contemporaneous material and you also admit you don't even read some of the posts of others on here. I really do wonder what even you thinks your purpose on here is or should be with all that!

In my opinion, you're nothing more than a myopic, fixated, pontificator with little to no crediblity left. Thankfully it seems most everyone else on this website realizes that now.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #310 on: September 21, 2010, 08:57:08 AM »

Yes, probably if one were to name the best 25 courses in the US in 1910 then Apawamis would be among them.   So what?   There were so few courses of any quality at all that a course that would be a Doak Scale 3 today would probably make that list!


Quality is a relative term. You cannot judge the golf courses of 1910 against the standard of 1925, 1970 or 2005. The purpose of this exercise is to better understand the state of golf architecture in 1910, and the attitude of those in charge of developing new and existing golf courses. Clearly, as shown by this list of the top 25 courses in 1910, the attitude was, if you desired a qualify golf course, to engage an experienced amateur or professional. This exercise also shows that there was a different attitude in the late 1890s and early 1900s. During that period it was not unusual for a realtively inexprienced amateur to take charge of a design.

Tom MacWood

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #311 on: September 21, 2010, 09:10:04 AM »
I have highlighted the experienced amateurs to better illustrate my point.

Atlanta Athletic Club - T.Bendelow (1908), H.Barker (1910)

Beverly - G.O'Neil (1908)

Chicago - CB.Macdonald/HJ.Whigham/J.Foulis (1895), D.Foulis (1910)

Homewood - HJ.Tweedie/J.Pearson (1901), W.Watson (1910)

Ravisloe - J.Foulis (1901), R.White (1903), W.Watson/A.Bauer (1910)

Belmont Springs - D.Ross (1908)

The Country Club - W.Campbell (1894), A.Campbell/H.Windeler (1899), H.Windeler (1910)

Essex County - W.Campbell (1894), D.Ross (1910)

Myopia Hunt - W.Campbell (1894), H.Leeds (1899-1907)

Minikahda - W.Watson/D.Foulis (1899), J.Jaffray/R.Taylor (1906)

Atlantic City - J.Reid (1897), H.Barker (1909)

Baltusrol - G.Hunter (1895), T.Gourlay (1896), G.Low (1908-10)

Englewood - J.Hobens (1905)

Apawamis - T.Bendelow (1899), H.Strong (1906-10)

Fox Hills - P.King/D.Brown (1901), I.Mackie (1910)

Garden City - D.Emmet/G.Hubbell/A.Findlay (1899), W.Travis (1906-1910)

National - CB.Macdonald/D.Emmet/HJ.Whigham (1909)

Nassau - H.Murdock (1899)

Salisbury - D.Emmet (1908)

Pinehurst #2 - D.Ross/W.Travis (1907)

Mayfield - H.Barker/B.Way (1909)

Waverly - H.Barker (1910)

Oakmont - H.Fownes (1903)

Ekwanok - JD.Dunn (1899), W.Travis (1905)

Columbia - H.Barker (1910)

TEPaul

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #312 on: September 21, 2010, 10:32:39 AM »
That list above is so riddled with meaningful inaccuracies, factual mistakes and omissions as to be virtually worthless for any point of reference, comparatively or otherwise. Unfortunately, it is also worthless to continue pointing them all out to Tom MacWood as he seems completely incapable of acknowledging or even understanding any of them.

An example of that is Brookline. The first to lay out holes there was not just Windelar but also Hunnewell and Robert Bacon.

Another excellent example of MacWood's incredibly poor analysis is his take on A.P. Appleton being involved in laying out the orginal nine at Myopia in the early spring of 1894. MacWood found out that Appleton was the Master of the Fox Hounds at Myopia Hunt Club and concluded that it is ridiculous to suggest the Master of the Fox Hounds could understand how to lay out golf holes. But MacWood did not realize and will now not admit that Appleton actually laid out up to six holes on his nearby 1,000 acre farm nearby (Appleton Farm) the year before in 1893!  ;)

It was one of the first few golf courses in Massachusetts.

Today there is something very historic in America about Appleton Farm.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #313 on: September 21, 2010, 12:31:12 PM »
Regarding Myopia, it seems a bit much to suggest that changes to do away with blindness were not related to Hutchinson's criticisms.  In the beginning of 1910 Myopia thought their course was finally finished, but shortly after Hutchinson's visit they were changing the course to rid it of some of the blindness. "Bunker Hill," whose unabashed enthusiasm about (and defense of) the course against all criticism might make Mike Cirba blush, noted that Myopia corrected what Hutchinson had complained about.    And while Bunker Hill and others complained profusely about the unfairness of Hutchinson's comments, the changes were nonetheless made.

Regarding Leeds, isn't it strange how all the really good information is always lost in a fire or flood or some such thing?   For a long time we heard about how all of the records of Merion had apparently been lost in a flood . . . maybe the Leeds' scrapbook was with them?   

I don't base my arguments on documents which may or may not exist, so I'll focus my comments on the available facts.   Same goes for speculation about how Leeds was "apparently" too shy to go on record about anything related to golf design.   How on earth would we determine whether he was too shy, or whether it never occurred to him to go on record, or whether he just didn't think he had anything to say?    Whatever the circumstance, I won't speculate about what someone who didn't say anything might have said. 

No doubt Myopia was a highly respected course, but it was also a work in progress, and ultimately the product of a couple of decades of hard work by Leeds and others.   As far as the "Leeds architecture" that is left, given that changes were taking place well into the teens, we can hardly call it circa 1900.
______________________________________________________

Mike Cirba,

This is a thread about courses circa 1910.  Laing did his work at Huntington Valley in 1909.   I don't know why you are so hard on the guy.  AWT sure approved of the work.   Are you saying AWT didn't know good architecture when he saw it?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #314 on: September 21, 2010, 01:07:24 PM »
From AG, here is what Ted Ray reportedly said about American courses in 1913 while at Oakmont:

I have seen quite a number of golf courses in this country since I have been here and if you ask which I think the best in America I would place the one at Detroit first, Cleveland, second (meaning Mayfield), Myopia third, and Brookline fourth. The links here (meaning Oakmont) are very interesting, keen and fast.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #315 on: September 21, 2010, 01:44:18 PM »
David,

Your misinformed attempt to ridicule the architecture of Ab Smith at Huntingdon Valley failed on a grand scale.   YOU are the one who picked the wrong guy and the wrong date.   Tom MacWood is the guy who listed Kirkby's listing from 1915 that included HVGC, not me.

Get over it.   Grow some and have the cuyones to just admit when you're wrong.


By the way...if we are to pick Vardon and Ray as our golf course raters, perhaps today we should just rate courses based on Nicklaus and Palmer's assessments?

Mayfield wasn't open until 1911, Detroit after that...what's your point?   Had they played NGLA and/or Garden City on that visit?   What does any of THAT have to do with courses in 1910??
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 01:49:47 PM by MCirba »

Mac Plumart

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Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #316 on: September 21, 2010, 02:17:45 PM »
I offered some of the first responses to this thread with lists of courses played for US Opens and US Amateurs.  I am thinking I was in error.  I am re-reading Golf Architecture by MacKenzie and he says the following:

"...many of the very best clubs do not offer up their courses for competitions." 

Take it for what it is worth.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #317 on: September 21, 2010, 02:56:20 PM »
Mike Cirba,

Only you could read what I wrote as misinformed or an attempt to discredit AB Smith. here is what wrote:  "You credit AB Smith with the changes at Huntingdon Valley.   Tillinghast reported that it was professional Jim Laing who was responsible for the work completed in 1909, and that it greatly improved the course.  Laing also designed the nine hole course at Old York Road."

As for the Ray quote, I merely put it out there to pass on information.  Unlike you, not everything I post is in service of some overriding agenda.

You should really take it down a notch.
___________________________________________

Mac Plumart,   That is a good point, especially with early instances of the  US Open which wasn't all that prestigious.  (At one point there was a debate about actually doing away with it.)   For instance, while Myopia was certainly a top course, I am not sure that holding the US Open tells us much about the quality.  In 1898 Myopia was the only applicant for the tournament.

The one thing that the tournaments did accomplish is that the course got some press coverage, so we now can get some idea, however faint, of what the course was like.   But given that there reportedly were 1400 courses in the United States at 1910, we are surely overlooking some.





Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #318 on: September 21, 2010, 10:34:14 PM »
David,

Your misinformed attempt to ridicule the architecture of Ab Smith at Huntingdon Valley failed on a grand scale.   YOU are the one who picked the wrong guy and the wrong date.   Tom MacWood is the guy who listed Kirkby's listing from 1915 that included HVGC, not me.

Get over it.   Grow some and have the cuyones to just admit when you're wrong.


By the way...if we are to pick Vardon and Ray as our golf course raters, perhaps today we should just rate courses based on Nicklaus and Palmer's assessments?

Mayfield wasn't open until 1911, Detroit after that...what's your point?   Had they played NGLA and/or Garden City on that visit?   What does any of THAT have to do with courses in 1910??

What about Vardon & Ray's assessment don't you like and would make you attempt to discredit?

They were playing golf at Mayfield in the fall of 1910 (though it officially opened in 1911). It was laid out in 1909, so my basic premise holds true. Had V & R played NGLA & GCGC no doubt they would have placed them somewhere near the top of their lists (although Darwin & Kirby were not great fans of GCGC) and both courses are on my list as well, what is your point?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 10:38:15 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #319 on: September 22, 2010, 08:24:10 AM »
David Moriarty:

The FACT is you are in no position to say much of anything about Leeds or the architectural history of Myopia. You've never seen the golf course and you are in no position to critique it at any time. Like a number of others you've never been there, and you have seen nothing of their records. Either has Tom MacWood. Like Merion some random newspaper article is of little value to their history but their contemporaneous meeting minutes (Run Book) most certainly is and it explains who laid out and did everything they had for golf courses.

You can ramble on with your uninformed speculations but they are of no value to anyone.


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #320 on: September 22, 2010, 09:08:29 AM »
Tommy Mac

Is the Detroit course Vardon praises as the best of his second tour (1913) of the US, the same as his first tour (1900) - CC of Detroit? 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #321 on: September 22, 2010, 12:37:34 PM »
TEPaul, instead of extending your it is not what you know it is WHO you knowrhetoric to yet another thread, why dont you educate us about Myopia.  With all your access you must have something you can teach us.  But with FACTS instead of romantic notions about the ever-shy Mr. Leeds and his lost secret  diary.

Tom MacWood.  I can't find the article right now, but I think Columbia was opened in fall of 1910, but then had agronomy problems, but if we are going by the quality of design, it most likely belongs on the list.

It is impossible to determine too much about these places so long after, but Ekwanok looks like it had great movement in the  land, and a terrific scale.  But then Ekwanok was another of those courses, like Garden City and Myopia, that seems to have been constantly evolving, so it is tough to put a finger on when it was at it's best?

Does anyone know when Travis first took money for designing or consulting services?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #322 on: September 22, 2010, 01:33:08 PM »
Tommy Mac

Is the Detroit course Vardon praises as the best of his second tour (1913) of the US, the same as his first tour (1900) - CC of Detroit? 

Ciao

It was the Colt course designed in 1911.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #323 on: September 22, 2010, 01:40:13 PM »
TEPaul, instead of extending your it is not what you know it is WHO you knowrhetoric to yet another thread, why dont you educate us about Myopia.  With all your access you must have something you can teach us.  But with FACTS instead of romantic notions about the ever-shy Mr. Leeds and his lost secret  diary.

Tom MacWood.  I can't find the article right now, but I think Columbia was opened in fall of 1910, but then had agronomy problems, but if we are going by the quality of design, it most likely belongs on the list.

It is impossible to determine too much about these places so long after, but Ekwanok looks like it had great movement in the  land, and a terrific scale.  But then Ekwanok was another of those courses, like Garden City and Myopia, that seems to have been constantly evolving, so it is tough to put a finger on when it was at it's best?

Does anyone know when Travis first took money for designing or consulting services?

I don't think Ekwanok has changed all that much over the years. The changes Travis made in 1905 were relatively minor. I believe Cornish made some more drastic changes in the 70s. He may created a new hole or two.

I don't know when Travis first excepted a fee, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were early on. He got into trouble in the 1900s for getting free room and board at a resort in Florida. I get the impression he collected a lot of extras over the years.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Top Courses 1910
« Reply #324 on: September 22, 2010, 06:16:25 PM »
Tommy Mac

Is the Detroit course Vardon praises as the best of his second tour (1913) of the US, the same as his first tour (1900) - CC of Detroit? 

Ciao

It was the Colt course designed in 1911.

Tommy Mac

Bizarre.  So both the courses Vardon praised were NLE not all that long after he visted each!  Do you have any clue why CC of Detroit didn't hire Khan for their current house? 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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