[TEPaul]

"For some reason the club today does not acknowledge he worked there."


Tom MacWood:

How would you know that since you've never been to Myopia and you apparently know noone there? I doubt you even have any idea who all at that club is involved with its history.

Actually, the club does acknowledge that Campbell worked there for a year or so in the early years presumably as a golf teacher, greenkeeper and the club's playing professional and they have a few local newspaper articles about some work he may've done there in 1894. It appears he may've bracketed or over-lapped at Myopia with another favorite of yours, Robert White, who was also the pro/greenkeeper at Myopia for a year or so before longtime pro/greenkeeper John Jones.

The fact that Campbell is not mentioned in the 1975 Myopia history book by Edward Weeks does not mean the club does not acknowledge Campbell worked there even if it might be understandable a researcher/analyst with your limited ability and purview on Myopia might conclude something like that.

It's probably not much different with your limited ability and purview on Pine Valley and Merion that you would conclude Colt's contribution was minimized at the former and that HH Barker must have designed the latter.   
 
 

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I seem to be the only one providing evidence here, and I do agree with you that Ekwanock was in the top second tier of courses by 1910 and it should be a 6 or perhaps even 7 by then.  How much of that would you attribute to Travis' changes?

I'd ask you Tom to show us examples of courses on your list othr than the Big Three that were compared favorably with the best courses abroad, as I shared in the Myopia clippings?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

I seem to be the only one providing evidence here, and I do agree with you that Ekwanock was in the top second tier of courses by 1910 and it should be a 6 or perhaps even 7 by then.  How much of that would you attribute to Travis' changes?

I'd ask you Tom to show us examples of courses on your list othr than the Big Three that were compared favorably with the best courses abroad, as I shared in the Myopia clippings?

Providing evidence of what? That Myopia was one of the top courses in the country? No one is disputing that fact.

[Mac Plumart]

Hey Tom M...

It would be great if you would tell us/me what Vardon, Darwin, Hutchinson said about American golf course circa 1910.

I don't want to pester you, but it would be cool to read some of this stuff.

Thanks,
Mac

[Tom MacWood]

Mac
Before coming to America Vardon was told the two best courses in America were the National and Myopia. After touring the country he felt CC of Detroit, Mayfield and Toronto were the best in that order. He did not play the NGLA; he thought Myopia was very good placing it right behind the other three. After that he singled out Baltusrol - holes of great character; Brookline, good but not of real championship character (sour grapes?); Ravisloe & Chicago. In the west he felt the best two were Waverly and Seattle. Waverly because it was a very good golf course; Seattle more for its potential.

[Mac Plumart]

Thanks Tom.

[Peter Pallotta]

Find Vardon's words here, Mac. Tom's summary is correct.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1915/ag136e.pdf

[Mac Plumart]

Awesome...thanks Peter!

[Peter Pallotta]

You're welcome, Mac. (And in case you missed it, here's the link that I posted yesterday to thousands of such articles:
http://search.la84foundation.org/search?)

What I found most interesting is that Toronto at the point was only 2 or 3 years old. Vardon doesn't get into any details or even mention that Colt designed it (he doesn't seem to mention any architects) but I wonder if he wasn't a bit pre-disposed to liking it so much because it was by Colt. Not to say it didn't deserve it - in fact, I lived in Toronto my whole life and, while I never tried to get on any of the private courses, for years Toronto was the one I most wanted to see.

Peter

[Mac Plumart]

Peter...I did see the link and have used it before.  But there is so much to search and find that I get bogged down from time to time.  That is why I appreciate your find on Vardon.

I find his comments wildly interesting and again leads me to consider that "great" courses are a test of golf and that players who play on these types of courses will become better players.  I've mentioned this previously, but I don't recall many people agreeing with me.  Nevertheless, Mr. Vardon did say the following about American Golf Courses...

"great alterations and improvements need to be made at most of them if they are to be reckoned as first-class and if they are to improve the quality of the players."

"the best of all of them to my mind, and an easy first it is too, is the one at Detroit.  It is extremely well laid out, is very well bunkered, and any shot that is half a bad one has to suffer. The greens are well tucked in with bunkers, and it is in every way a first-class test of golf."

"Some of the courses that I saw when in Canada also impressed me greatly, especially the new one of the Toronto Club. There are
two holes that need altering, but with these exceptions the course is almost perfect, and is one of the finest that any player, however good and exacting he may be, need ever wish to play upon."

Certainly food for thought.

[TEPaul]

It is certainly well worth noting and considering what the GB contingent thought and said about some of the early American courses but it is probably just as much worth considering and noting what some of the best of the American contingent of architects and architectural writers of America thought about and wrote about what the GB contingent thought and wrote, particularly Travis and Tillinghast! 

There surely was a pretty strong national competitive dynamic going on at that time.

[Tom MacWood]

Vardon wrote two or three critiques of American golf, his general conclusion was American golf courses were not challenging enough (with a few exceptions), and as a result American golfers were not up to par with their British counterparts. He believed there was an attitude among American green committees that making golf courses difficult would not be viewed favorably by the membership.

In a couple of the articles he noted one exception - Ravisloe. Vardon wrote there was one man at Ravisloe who wanted to the strengthen the course, which resulted in split of the membership. The long handicap men opposed him and threatened to resign; so did others who feared the loss of membership. The man eventually got the support of the green committee, the work went ahead, and everyone was pleased with the results. The club gave this man a silver cup the day Vardon & Ray played their exhibition at Ravisloe.  

[Tom MacWood]

This list is based on a combination of American and British perspectives - prominent golfers from both sides of the Atlantic.

Atlanta Athletic Club - T.Bendelow (1908), H.Barker (1910)

Beverly - G.O'Neil (1908)

Chicago - CB.Macdonald/HJ.Whigham/J.Foulis (1895), D.Foulis (1910)

Homewood - HJ.Tweedie/J.Pearson (1901), W.Watson (1910)

Ravisloe - J.Foulis (1901), R.White (1903), W.Watson/A.Bauer (1910)

Belmont Springs - D.Ross (1908)

The Country Club - W.Campbell (1894), A.Campbell/H.Windeler (1899), H.Windeler (1910)

Essex County - W.Campbell (1894), D.Ross (1910)

Myopia Hunt - W.Campbell (1894), H.Leeds (1899-1907)

Minikahda - W.Watson/D.Foulis (1899), J.Jaffray/R.Taylor (1906)

Atlantic City - J.Reid (1897), H.Barker (1909)

Baltusrol - L.Keller (1895), T.Gourlay (1896), G.Low (1908-10)

Englewood - J.Hobens (1905)

Apawamis - T.Bendelow (1899), H.Strong (1906-10)

Fox Hills - P.King/D.Brown (1901)

Garden City - D.Emmet/G.Hubbell/A.Findlay (1899), W.Travis (1906-1910)

National - CB.Macdonald/D.Emmet/HJ.Whigham (1909)

Nassau - H.Murdock (1899)

Salisbury - D.Emmet (1908)

Pinehurst #2 - D.Ross/W.Travis (1907)

Mayfield - H.Barker (1909)

Waverly - H.Barker (1910)

Oakmont - H.Fownes (1903)

Ekwanok - JD.Dunn (1899), W.Travis (1905)

Columbia - H.Barker (1910)

[Dan Herrmann]

Quote from Hutchinson's  "Badminton Guide to Golf', 1911 edition:

"But of all places of interest, the most entrancing is far away on the other side of the Atlantic, whee the Quebec Golf Club plays beside the Plains of Abraham.  Here the delving niblick may disinter a musket ball, heavy with history; th devious deriver may find a grave in the St. Lawrence, far below him; he who is both fa and sure may carry at  drive, as by a forlorn hope, the "od Forts".....  Montreal is less grand, but on its lesser scale it is even better, the putting greens a real joy, and the turf of a quality which one rarely finds out of England.

This matter of the turf is the great trouble with all the very many golf greens lately laid out in the USA.  The subject of American golf is an immense one.  In a former edition of this book the Shnnecock Hills links were alluded to incidentally.  To-day it would be n impertinence to allude only incidentally to American golf, and equally an impertinence to attempt to tackle the subject adequately without giving it far more space than is left at our command...."

Seems like the Brits thought the North American courses were a poor cousin to what they had themselves.  I'm also very interested in the "quality of turf" note.

[Tom MacWood]

Seems like the Brits thought the North American courses were a poor cousin to what they had themselves.  I'm also very interested in the "quality of turf" note.

Dan
What in Hutchinson's excerpt would make you say that?

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom -  This quote: "This matter of the turf is the great trouble with all the very many golf greens lately laid out in the USA. "

To me, "Great Trouble" is quite a knock.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

What does Harry Vardon's 1915 comments, mostly criticizing the course at Brookline where he lost the championship to Ouimet, have to do with the state of US golf courses in 1910?

From what I read he thinks Myopia would be better if they placed the pins in the middle of the greens instead of behind bunkers, compliments Detroit which is outside the scope of discussion, compliments Mayfield although he says they need to add more bunkers, says US courses need much more fairway bunkering to punish drives that aren't straight, and then goes on to say that even "as American courses go", Brookline is not one of the best.

Faint praise, indeed.

[Tom MacWood]

Dan
He is discussing the difficulty of establishing turf with some of the newer courses, the NGLA being the most famous example. A course HGH absolutely loved. IMO it is impertinent to draw that conclusion based on the fact HGH did not go into any detail discussing American golf in his little blurb.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

What does Harry Vardon's 1915 comments, mostly criticizing the course at Brookline where he lost the championship to Ouimet, have to do with the state of US golf courses in 1910?

From what I read he thinks Myopia would be better if they placed the pins in the middle of the greens instead of behind bunkers, compliments Detroit which is outside the scope of discussion, compliments Mayfield although he says they need to add more bunkers, says US courses need much more fairway bunkering to punish drives that aren't straight, and then goes on to say that even "as American courses go", Brookline is not one of the best.

Faint praise, indeed.

Vardon visited America in 1913, not whole lot changed with the courses in question between in 1910 and 1913.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Now you're really stretching it.

The basic question of your thread is this;   what would a club looking to build a new course in early 1910 have out there as models of excellence in US golf?   Right??

Your list includes a ton of either start-ups, or major revisions that happened in 1910, and as they were brand-new certainly wouldn't have been considered by any club in question.   Furthermore, when Vardon saw them, they had another 3 years of development, which in these fledgling years, may as well been a lifetime.   

Atlanta Athletic Club - T.Bendelow (1908), H.Barker (1910)

Beverly - G.O'Neil (1908)

Chicago - CB.Macdonald/HJ.Whigham/J.Foulis (1895), D.Foulis (1910)

Homewood - HJ.Tweedie/J.Pearson (1901), W.Watson (1910)

Ravisloe - J.Foulis (1901), R.White (1903), W.Watson/A.Bauer (1910)

Belmont Springs - D.Ross (1908)

The Country Club - W.Campbell (1894), A.Campbell/H.Windeler (1899), H.Windeler (1910)

Essex County - W.Campbell (1894), D.Ross (1910)

Myopia Hunt - W.Campbell (1894), H.Leeds (1899-1907)

Minikahda - W.Watson/D.Foulis (1899), J.Jaffray/R.Taylor (1906)

Atlantic City - J.Reid (1897), H.Barker (1909)

Baltusrol - L.Keller (1895), T.Gourlay (1896), G.Low (1908-10)

Englewood - J.Hobens (1905)

Apawamis - T.Bendelow (1899), H.Strong (1906-10)

Fox Hills - P.King/D.Brown (1901)

Garden City - D.Emmet/G.Hubbell/A.Findlay (1899), W.Travis (1906-1910)

National - CB.Macdonald/D.Emmet/HJ.Whigham (1909)

Nassau - H.Murdock (1899)

Salisbury - D.Emmet (1908)

Pinehurst #2 - D.Ross/W.Travis (1907)

Mayfield - H.Barker (1909)

Waverly - H.Barker (1910)

Oakmont - H.Fownes (1903)

Ekwanok - JD.Dunn (1899), W.Travis (1905)

Columbia - H.Barker (1910)

For instance, would you argue that Garden City in 1905 was the same as Garden City in 1908?   Merion in 1912 the same as Merion in 1915??   And so on...

Later today I'll post some articles that will show that many of the course you mentioned were in transition from cross-bunkered, "Cop" bunkered affairs that were very rote and mindless to some degree of "scientific bunkering", which was at various stages of implementation by 1910.

The bottom line is still that in early 1910, the very best US courses were all designed by amateurs for their own clubs, and the second tier of Ekwanok, Pinehurst, and others all had heavy amateur influence and architecture in the form of Walter Travis.

Most of the rest were far below this, or so new as to be outside anything anyone would have considered as they made their architectural choices in 1910.

[Mike Cirba]

Speaking of which Tom, why are we even discussing Mayfield in this context?

It didn't open until 1911, and even then it was just being developed and raw as many members were still playing the Euclid course at that time.

Also, shouldn't former Euclid pro Bertie Way get some design credit there?

I thought there was something off....

Do the rest of your dates reflect the year the course was designed and/or revisions were made, or when they were actually in play and viewable by others and therefore germane to your larger question?   

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

I took another look at the TMac list of best courses in 1910.   Most of the courses are basically attributed to one designer for new creation and one for the major remodel by 1910.  So why is it that only MCC, Shawnee, Myopia and Garden City have fuzzy histories and the need to attribute to multiple designers?  I don't know for sure, but I think we have to consider the possibility that he wants to argue with anything TePaul, you, and now Phil Young have to say, and that colors his views on attribution in a few select cases.  

I am also interested in his addition of Travis to Pinehurst. I recall some site visits by Travis to Pinehurst, but don't recall them being enough to be called more than a courtesy call.  If I am wrong on that one, I would readily admit it, but again, it seems if the course is legendary, the attribution needs some tweaking in the mind of TMac.  For lesser courses, he seems fine with the traditional credit to the contracted and professional designer.

[Mac Plumart]

I think Mike makes a great point and one in which I think we all need to consider if, indeed, we want to get to the bottom of things.  And that is the article from Vardon was published in 1915 and most likely centered on his 1913 tour.  But we are talking golf courses in 1910.  

Tom Macwood says not much changed from 1910 to 1913.  Tom, what makes you say that?  I'd love to see how all the pieces of information lead you to that conclusion.  Not that I am questioning you, rather I am interested in learning about this stuff.  I find that given that I have so much to learn about this topic when someone posts information designed to educate on topic X, I also learn things about topics Y and Z.  Perhaps my previous point illustrates that.

Anyway, if you could post some items and/or educate us on how you conclude that not much changed from 1910 to 1913 I think that would be great.

[Mike Cirba]

I've contended that any number of courses on Tom's list were either still markedly flawed by 1910 as a result of having originally been conceived in the form of cross-bunkered, "copped", turn of the century designs that were still in the early process of evolving to something better, or those that were just opening around 1910 and still raw and developing.

Exhibit 1 is a 1910 list of courses in Long Island.   At the time, NGLA is not yet open, and amateur Dev Emmet's Salisbury seems according to Travis who wrote the article as a few years away from being really good, despite obvious potential.   

More to come...

[Mike Cirba]

First we have Fox Hills, on Long Island, as reviewed in 1909.   Others to follow over the weekend;
   

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