Crump Cup Thread

[Jay Flemma]

In honor of the tournament starting in a few days, let's talk about the history of the Crump Cup, and a little bit about this year's field.

Who is going?  I'll be there Sunday...

[TEPaul]

Jay:

What do you want to know about the history of the Crump Cup?

I think it was started in like 1922 in honor of George A. Crump who pretty much owned the place and made the golf course his total life's work in the last 5-6 years of his life. Crump died at 46 in 1918.

It has never been all that clear to me but even though he had a big house in Merchantville, NJ, some say he basically vacated it, putting his mother in it around the beginning of 1913 (his young wife died suddenly a few years before and he had no children) and basically just moved to the woods of Clementon first in a tent and then in his bungalow by the lake near #5.

If that is true Crump with Pine Valley just may've been the most complete "Waldon Pond" type thing golf course architecture has ever known. It's quite amazing when one goes there to think what it must have been like for him in 1913 and early 1914 going to sleep every night and waking up every morning out there in the woods all alone except for his dogs. This was a very prominent man and golfer around here back then with apparently a ton of friends and acquaintances. Imagine what his friends must have thought of that. Maybe they thought of him as some sort of golf or golf architecture Thoreau!  

[JC Jones]

Is it only open to amateurs?  How is the invitee list determined? 

[TEPaul]

"How is the invitee list determined? "

By the Crump Cup Committee. It seems to get into the Crump Cup as a non-member the Crump Cup Committee has to think you did something significant in golf somehow. That can be pretty interesting. At the dinner which includes the whole field they ask various people to stand up and be recognized like if you won the US or British Amateur, or some USGA Championship or were on a Walker Cup team or a captain and such or played in the Masters or whatever. It's pretty impressive how many get up and who they all are. But it seems like the Crump Cup participants are all in the "Mid-Am" age category (25 or over) even though there has long been a Seniors Division too. I don't know of anyone who played in the Crump Cup who was under 25 but it's possible I guess as the Crump Cup Committee can obviously invite anyone they want to invite. It is for amateurs though or at least it always has been. But who knows, they do have a pretty impressive array of professional golfer members at Pine Valley and maybe some day they'll invite all of them and call it the Crump Cup Open! I mean come on, who wouldn't just love to tee it up in Crump Cup qualifying with Ben Crenshaw, for instance? Can you imagine at the Crump Cup dinner the MC saying; "Oh sorry, I forgot someone. Get up Ben; this man didn't just play in the Masters he won two of them!" Or maybe; "Get up Arnie; Oh Hell, just sit down Arnie, your accomplishments are too long to mention and we've got to eat here."

[Mark McKeever]

Thanks for the input Tom.

Joe Baush and I are planning on being there at about 12:30 on Sunday.  Looking forward to it!

Mark

[archie_struthers]

 


Bad enough you have to play Mike McCoy or the like in the first round, how about if you squeezed oinot the match play championship flight and got  Nick Price ....pretty heady stuff

The tournament is loads of fun to watch , as the course really lends itself to match play. Lots of shots are played that you wouldn't attempt in a qualifier there, for fear of double bogey or worse.  Some more aggressive angles are taken on #6 on the tee shot , and sucker pins become more inviting to these extremely talented amateurs.

I've felt that the home court advantage is huge here, as many members have been ultra competitive and even won against some high level amateur talent. The senior division is getting more and more competitive , and has become a big part of the tournament proper. Back in the early 80's it wasn't on the radar screen!  Remeber the public is invited Sunday afternoon to watch the action!!!

[TEPaul]

"Bad enough you have to play Mike McCoy or the like in the first round, how about if you squeezed oinot the match play championship flight and got  Nick Price ....pretty heady stuff"


Archie:

The way I look at something like that is you'll never have a chance unless you get into the ring first! Guess who I drew in my first match in my first Crump Cup?

Since it's coming right up and some guys on the site are going down there on Sunday I should mention something about the Crump Cup even though the guys going down there wouldn't really notice something like this. But in my opinion, qualifying for the flights in the Crump Cup was definitely the most pressure packed intensity I ever went through in golf. First of all, it's Pine Valley and anyone who knows that course knows that potential round destroying train wrecks are everywhere. Then being the Crump Cup the green speeds and the set up is additionally intense and then the realization of how cool and prestiguous the Crump Cup is for most of the field it's like on your mind all day long that you have to qualify for one of the flights and if you miss that two years in a row you're pretty much out of the tournament automatically. I think in my years in it I missed qualifying maybe 2-3 times but never two years in a row and you want to talk about pressure packed----if you miss one year the next year in qualifying you know if you don't make it that day there will be no more Crump Cup in your future. When I did it the qualifying was only 18 holes; now it's 36 holes. I would definitely rather go through a 36 hole qualifier on that course than an 18 hole qualifier.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

If I am not mistaken Mr Paul..it was one Jay Sigel n'est pas ?

[TEPaul]

Michael:

That's right and it was quite the all-around experience as not only did he beat the ever-living tar out of me he actually conceded the match to me right after he beat me. Technically under the Rules of Golf you can't do that. But he did and amazingly they let me play on the next day.

And then there was the year I had this sudden flash of prescience and clarity of future thought and I picked the winner and went right up and told him about it after his first round. After watching him hit his shot to #2---BOOM, it hit me! There was zero question about it in my mind; after Saturday's morning round and that shot to me he'd already won the tournament.

[archie_struthers]

 


TEP et al....having caddied in multiple Crumps ( and being the jockey on a few winners in same)  had a great time working that weekend , even when working other than the championship flight

Had Sigel a couple times when he methodically dismantled the opposiition. He just hit it so solid all the time and needed very little help from me . It was almost boring except that I appreciated how good he played.

My favorite qualifying day, which was an 18 holer , followed Bob Lewis shooting 64 the previous year to set the competitive course record< ( I apologive for recanting this story , but it is soooo good)  Leading up to the tournament , superintendent Dick Bator had told me privately that no one would be shooting any low scores this year, and don't you blab about it!  It sems that lots of players had thought that technology and time had made the "Valley " with it s wide fairways and huge greens , a dart board for the elite players. When a few of them were too vocal as to this after Lewis , and others low rounds , Bator seethed for a year ...lol  .....and appropriately got his "revenge"


When I arrived at the course early qualifying Friday and walked up the path to check in with the caddy master the sheen on the 18th green was obvious. So was the tee on #1 , set far back and in the right hand corner of the tee box. It was a little breezy , and the wind was right in your puss on #1 , which is probably the hardest wind at PV.  It makes you right to left on two , three and downwind on four , none of which are good when the grees are really firm and fast.  Little did I know at the time just how firm and fast Mr. Bator had cranked it up for the qualifier.

If memory serves I was the second group out , carrying double for a player from Florida and one from Chicago . Both were excellent amateurs , legitimate scratch players , but not in the elite ten or twelve that you knew were favored to make the finals . The good news for me was that unlike someone like Jay , I could really help these two guys and they would trust me . As you know in caddying , sometimes confidence in your looper often trumps inside information .  This actually worked out , as the goof course proved so hard that 85 made the championship flight ...the pins and greens were so diabolical that a long time member from Indiana waved the white flag after 11 putting the third green ....the superintendent , and Pine Valley won that day !!!

[TEPaul]

Archie:

I don't remember what year that was you just described but I think it was the year that Sigel 5 putted the 2nd green and then went on to shoot a 75 and become the medalist. I think that was the year some qualifier got so pissed he walked off the course, took a taxi to the airport and flew home.

[Dan Herrmann]

What I love about attending the Crump Cup is the real Walter Mitty feeling I had being out there.  I'm watching these fantastic golfers play the world's best golf course.  Every shot is fantastic - even the misses are pretty darn good.  And you're walking right with them, respecting the golfers, the golf course, and the Game.

I've been out there three times, and I've never played PV.  But I really don't care - my "memories" of PV are all perfect - untarnished by the nervous top shot or duck hook.  And it's all good

PS - If you've never been out there, Pine Valley, besides being the world's best golf course, is also the world's best smelling golf course.   The scent of the pines is intoxicating.

[Lester George]

I am pulling for former winner and friend Vinny Giles.

Lester

[Jay Flemma]

So who else is going to be there?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bator seethed for a year ...lol  .....and appropriately got his "revenge" the following year!

 Little did I know at the time just how firm and fast Mr. Bator had cranked it up for the qualifier.

the pins and greens were so diabolical that a long time member from Indiana waved the white flag after 11 putting the third green ....

the superintendent , and Pine Valley won that day !!!

Archie,

I feel just the opposite.

When a superior player has to be subjected to absurd conditions where outstanding competitors are 5 and 11 putting, the Superintendent and Pine Valley have lost.

They lose their dignity, their sense of fair play and their understanding about what the game and competition are all about.

It's a sad day when the Supreintendent and Pine Valley have to resort to such ridiculously drastic conditions, conditions that will only embarrass the competitors and Pine Valley.

A great course should yield to a great round and not have to resort to chicanery to defend par.

Jay, I will not be in attendance on Sunday

[archie_struthers]

Pat , we can respectfully disagree on this one as to this day it was one of the most enjoyable working days you could ever imagine as a caddy.  All you had learned about this great golf course was in play that day, and you could have a huge impact on the scores of world class amateurs by passing it on to them.  Very seldom does this occur!  

Pine Valley goes out of its way on a daily basis not to make the course too hard for the players to enjoy. I know this for a fact and thru my relationships there have learned to respect this wise decision . The powers that be never grow the rough up or narrow the fairways to toughen the golf course and typically put the pins in fairly benign positions that match the green speeds of the day.

However on this day with or without Mr Ransome and the committees approval , the beast was unchained and it was really amazing. What made it even more amazing is that your course IQ became paramount to scoring , even more so than usual . Intimate knowledge of the workings of the golf course was worth seven to ten shots that day.

 In spite of the difficulty there were no holes where you couldn 't figure out the play if you really got it!  Even the third hole , where the pin was front right , had a ledge that allowed you to leave the ball above the hole within three or four feet,, of course you had to make the subsequent downhiller , but it was doable. You had to understand that over the green on four and short of the green on five was the right play to make par, and anything but that probably resulted in bogey or worse,

the greens at PV are so sophisticated architecturally that you can always two putt if you have sufficient skill and imagination ,you definitely could two putt if you understood the angles and the need to lag into the slope...... that Crump somehow devised these greens  is pure genius and separates this course from many other great tests of golf....the angles and hills within the greens , the internal contours  themselves are the ultimate braking mechanism



As one who totally believes in playable golf for the masses this  extemely difficult day was special , as it tested the mettle of some fabulous players ....and showcased just what Crump had created ....it was a special day, and anyone who was there totally remembers it

[PGertner]

Mr. Bator must have done something right while there.  If you look at a google map of Pine Valley, there is a Bator Street somewhere near the 7th hole....

Twas a fun day, as I recall.

Patrick Gertner
Potowomut Golf Club
East Greenwich,  RI

[TEPaul]

Archie:

I love that Post #15 of yours. With something like that really engaging everything about the course, particularly the greens, becomes essential and saving strokes becomes premium. Somebody's still going to win and the smartest play tends to rise on the curve!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat , we can respectfully disagree on this one as to this day it was one of the most enjoyable working days you could ever imagine as a caddy.

We do disagree, tremendously.

As a caddy it might have been nice, but, as a player it's a nightmare.
And, the competitive game is about the player's ability to score in a competition, not be embarrassed by ridiculously absurd conditions

When one of the most talented amateurs the world of golf has ever known five (5) putts and another talented amateur eleven (11) putts, clearly, the course has been prepared improperly, to the point that the Superintendent responsible and the club should be embarrased  

All you had learned about this great golf course was in play that day, and you could have a huge impact on the scores of world class amateurs by passing it on to them.  Very seldom does this occur!  

What, like telling them how to take their stance over their 4th, 7th and 11th putt ?
Only one commandment must be followed, get below the hole on approach and recoveries

Pine Valley goes out of its way on a daily basis not to make the course too hard for the players to enjoy. I know this for a fact and thru my relationships there have learned to respect this wise decision . The powers that be never grow the rough up or narrow the fairways to toughen the golf course and typically put the pins in fairly benign positions that match the green speeds of the day.

That's not the issue and it has nothing to do with the issue.
Stop defending an irresponsible and spiteful act, one deliberately initiated to do but  one thing, embarrass INVITED GUESTS

However on this day with or without Mr Ransome and the committees approval , the beast was unchained and it was really amazing. What made it even more amazing is that your course IQ became paramount to scoring , even more so than usual . Intimate knowledge of the workings of the golf course was worth seven to ten shots that day.  In spite of the difficulty there were no holes where you couldn 't figure out the play if you really got it!  Even the third hole , where the pin was front right , had a ledge that allowed you to leave the ball above the hole within three or four feet,, of course you had to make the subsequent downhiller , but it was doable. You had to understand that over the green on four and short of the green on five was the right play to make par, and that was the play !!!!

Archie, being below the hole is a universal and nothing new.
If a golfer, especially a high caliber golfer doesn't know that, it's obvious why they would need a caddy.

the greens at PV are so sophisticated architecturally that you can always two putt if you have sufficient skill and imagination ,they were puttable that day if you understood........ how this ever occurred is the genius that separates this course from many other great tests of golf....the angles and hills within the greens , the internal contours  themselves are the ultimate braking mechanism

Jay Segal was as familiar with those greens as anyone, yet he five putted.
Another talented player 11 putted.
All of those competitors have sufficient skill and imagination.
Unfortunately, they were ambushed by someone bent on revenge, not fair play and healthy competition and conditions.



As one who totally believes in playable golf for the masses this  extemely difficult day was special , as it tested the mettle of some fabulous players ....and showcased just what Crump had created ....it was fabulous , and anyone who was there that day totally remembers it !

Just like Pearl Harbor

[DBE]

I heard for years while playing in Crump Cups about the infamous Bader set up that still is remembered by people for their own reasons.  I must say that I don't regret being elsewhere that Friday.  Sort of reminds me of the Friday hole setting at Olympic on #18 during the '98 US Open when most every player three or four putted (selfishly I three putted to miss the cut) or the Friday tee placement on the 10th hole at Bethpage during the '02 US Open. I understand that sometimes mistakes are made with course set up but obviously Bader's and in my mind Tom Meeks' actions at Olympic and Bethpage were just downright ignorance.  Fortunately, wiser people have prevailed at the Crump Cup and for the most part, at the US Open.

I think PV opening its course to spectators for the final match is one of the neatest things in all of golf.  I'll always remember seeing  spectators down on their hands and knees inspecting the grass on the tees, fairways and greens (I assume amazed that grass could be so good) after the match had gone through holes.

[archie_struthers]

 

 to Dave E who I think won a subsequent Crump and knows a little bit about course set-up ......just have to tell you that it was fun for a lot of guys that day , and memorable.  I caddied for two good ( not your level) players who both qualified for the championship flight shooting  83 and 85 ....and I'm sure it's a highlight of their golf career when they look back.  

The pin on three was just incredibly difficult, as stated you had to lag it three plus feet past and make the subsequent downhiller but other than that you would be hard pressed to describe a pin as unplayable.  Bator just got the greens up to warp speed and had them firm and fast , really firm for this day.   Believe it or not, he actually did it a week later to all of us in the caddy tournament , and laughed and cursed  ( in fun)  at us all later that day at our after tournament party.  It was a blast and one of the guys Leo Glutting actually shot 76 on a course at least as hard as the Crump set-up.   It was actually great fun for us and the supers crew watching all of us  "experts"  lOL  get twisted just like the visiotrs do  !!!

[Jay Flemma]

...any word how the matches are going?

[JESII]

They start tomorrow morning...Michael Muehr was medalist by 8 with 138!

[Kevin_Reilly]

Some reports, scores and pictures from Randy Haag:

http://randyhaag.com/

[Scott Warren]

Thanks for the link Kevin. Some great pics there.

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