What constitutes F&F in the USA?

[Scott Warren]

(decided to start a new thread rather than threadjack the one listing F&F US courses)

I'm interested how you measure F&F in the US. What playing characteristics does a course need to be considered F&F?

I ask because a US visitor to these shores last winter playing Deal said with some enthusiasm that he loved how fast and firm it was. Now it was dry and firm enough that you didn't have any mud in your spikes after a round, but compared to what we call F&F in the UK, it was soft and slow.

As with many terms, the definition seems to be somewhat different either side of the Atlantic. How would you define it for US golf?

[Jud_T]

Scott,

The definition should be the same IMHO.  It's just that there are such a small percentage of courses/climates that qualify that many have expanded the definition to include courses that are mainained toward f/f when conditions allow.

[PCCraig]

In my opinion the "F&F" in Ireland / Scotland is an extreme and just because only few courses in the States can match that level of firmness doesn't mean courses here don't play F&F.

My definition is that a course is F&F when a driver rolls out at least 20% of it's total distance, you can actually play the fairway countours, and the greens show little sign of ball marks. 

[Scott Warren]

But are hard greens the same as F&F? I would think not, particularly if they are surrounded by soft approaches as Steve Kline outlined in the other thread.

The drive carry/roll ratio idea has some merit, I think. I'm not sure if 20% is a bit much though. 50 yards of a 250-yard poke?

At how many golf courses in the US could you - or would you - deliberately play an iron with the intention of landing it short of the putting surface by 5-20 yards and allowing it to bounce and roll onto the green?

I guess maintenanxce style comes into it as well - doesn't matter how firm the ground is if the area is maintained as rough or semi.

[Sean_A]

To me, no matter where the course is, f&f is about marrying the design and turf/conditions and maintaining those conditions regardless of the season.  An f&f course can't be fast one week than slow the next.  Within reason, consistency of conditions is very important for f&f courses.  Sure, balls will roll more in hot and dry conditions and sure, the amount of roll a ball gets is important as well, but only in the context of the design.  An example of f&f may be when playing from rough (and even sometimes from the fairway in fairly extreme conditions) and bad angle, ONLY the VERY BEST of shots will hold a green after carrying a bunker or whatever.  When I say very best I mean most pros would fail most of the time.  There isn't much point in f&f if angles don't matter OR if a course is designed primarily for aerial approaches.  In fact, one could argue that f&f is terrible for these sorts of courses and this may well why the marriage of slow and aerial golf developed - it makes sense - only folks have a hard time divorcing the concept of slow golf when on a course that can and should be maintained in a more lean and mean style.  Another example may being forced to pay attention to hazards, fairway cut lines or whatever at a distance one wouldn't usually hit that on normal courses it wouldn't be an issue.  I would also say that f&f conditions allow for a player who flights his ball best to suit the conditions can make up a lot of ground who can carry the ball further.  What percentage of roll these sorts of examples need is a question I can't answer and I don't think is relevant.  

Ciao

[john_stiles]

No need to have F&F in US and UK and China and upstate NY for heavens sake.

My thought is that a course is F&F whenever you are allowed to bounce and roll an approach shot onto the green.

Keep it simple.

[TEPaul]

Scott:

To me what constitutes F&F in the USA is when the ball bounces and rolls out a minimum of about 25 yards and hopefully 50+ "Through the Green" and when the ball basically does not check much and definitely does not suck back coming into green surfaces.

I think when you have that combo you have players really needing to engage with the architecture and think things through far more. On the older style courses I've come to call the above combination "The Ideal Maintenance Meld" (IMM).

The "meld" part of that was carefully thought out as I intended it to mean a combination of carefully considered maintenance practices that in COMBINATION serve to meld together with the numerous and important architectural features of a golf course and really HIGHLIGHT their function and effectiveness.

[Lester George]

Check out the USGA's Definition and list here:

http://www.usga.org/news/2010/June/Firm-And-Fast,-At-Last!/

Lester

[Mark_F]

Heidi Montag.

[Don_Mahaffey]

If the golfers aren't complaining, it isn't firm and fast.

[Ian Larson]

If the golfers aren't complaining, it isn't firm and fast.

BINGO!!!!!!!

[Pete Lavallee]

I played the golf course I grew up on in New England this past week. When I started playing there, there was no fairway irrigation. The course was routinely baked hard as a rock in summertime. We actually used to hit layup clubs to keep short of several water hazards which were 250 yards out from the tee. Now, with complete irrigation I have to bust a driver on these holes and have absolutely no fear of reaching the water. To me the course is less interesting now. Of course we would routinely bump the ball back in the old days; getting a decent lie was hit or miss. The point is, that we relied completely on natural rainfall, which kept the course very lean. There was a high percentage of fescue which enjoyed those conditions and bounced back beautifully whe the rains came. The irrigation system has driven this grass type out now. In a day and age when sprinklers come daily due to timers it would seem impossible to achieve these results. I suspect Don doesn't irrigate with the same amount of water every day; but 99%of the other Supers do. There in lies the problem.

[Steve Kline]

As Scott mentioned that I said on another thread if I can't land the ball 5-20 yards short of the green and have it run on then it's not F&F. I'm a good player and put a fair amount of spin on the ball. In my travels to UK and Ireland even my wedges will run out a little from perfect lie and a well struck shot but I can land them on the green and the ball would hold pretty well - except down wind. Longer clubs I need to plan for some roll. The only courses in the U.S. I have played like that are Bandon and Ballyneal. I have played other courses here that are quite firm and would fit TE Paul's IMM (I like his definition too) but I'm not sure that can be considered F&F. Pinehurst #2's greens used to be maintained this way but the problem was the approaches were never as firm and fast as the greens. There was never an option for me to land the ball short of one of the false fronts and bounce it on from 170 yards. You had better hit it really high or kill it by landing into the false front.