[Ran Morrissett]

This course was BIG TIME 30 years ago - why don't people still passionately talk about it?

I say that having only played the front nine and seen the back while  it was being "refurbished" in 1997. Despite its opening hole being moved from the glorious present 15th tee high above the river to its location in the valley by the new clubhouse   , the course remains a grand adventure.

I wonder why Banff is lagging beyond Cape Breton Highland in a return to prominence? Hard to believe Thompson did any finer work than the 4th and 14th at Banff  

Clearly, people see weaknesses that I missed - what are they? At that altitude, there are harder courses than this 6,800 yarder but ... so what?

I can't imagine there many courses that 99.99% of us would rather play.

Cheers,

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

First, the course now plays to 7,083 yards for what it is worth and that adds to some of the challenge that those feel the course lacks at altitude.

The changes to the routing perhaps take away some of the drama, but I do not think they change the greatness.

The par threes are great as a set, with eight being the weakest.  However, with a small green and good bunkering this hole is not a dog.

I think 5 is a great par four and really like the ninth as a par five.  Short as it is, the right side is still threatening.

10-15 (10-14 the old closing stretch) is one of the great stretches I have played.  With the wind playing into you, the altitude no longer seems so helpful..  10 and 13 are great long par threes and 11, 12, 14 and 15 all play as long par fours.  14 is outstanding (as Ran mentions) and with the new higher tee on 15 the hole plays both long and gorgeous.

Overall the course is so solid that its place on the Canada top 100 (somewhere around 40th) is a bit of a joke.  I prefer Jasper from a fun standpoint, but I would be hard pressed to imagine Jasper would win hands down (I will do the match play later).

Jeff Mingay and I were discussing how long they have left the fescue around the bunkers, causing both beautiful contrast and tough playing conditions.  I cannot believe that the pace of play is as fast as it is with people hacking out of the long grass all day.

This course is a really easy trip for everyone (Calgary is only 1 hour and 30 minutes away).  For scenery, I would imagine few can match and the course is so wonderful I would like to see it at least in the top 15 in Canada.

I will add more to this later, I just did an article on Banff recently and have plenty of photos to add to this thread.

[Ran Morrissett]

Please add all the photos that you can!

Is that one from the 15th tee (the original 1st) ?

40th in Canada??? There might - and there might not - be a few Thompson courses better but he didn't design 39 better courses  

99% of the modern Canadian efforts built since his death are LACKING - they are grossly overshaped and have little strategic interest.

[Tyler Kearns]

Ben,
       Thompson's Banff Springs GC replaced a nine-hole course designed by Donald Ross. In Brad Klein's new book, he mentions that Thompson left a few of Ross' holes intact, including a par-3. Don't have the book beside me, is this the par-3 that stands out as the weaker of the four?

[Jeff Mingay]

Starting at what was Thompson's 5th hole and ending on his original 4th really does detract from the golfing experience Banff once was.

I think Thompson's original sequence of holes was a very important factor in developing Banff's reputation as one of the world's best -- the 1st is an awesome start, and the last four (particularly the 18th) provided an amazing climax to the round. This is all gone now. The start nor the finish are as exciting today.  

More later...

[Doug Wright]

I'd agree with Jeff that the rerouting of the course has adversely affected it. The last 2 or 3 holes (after the former first) are lackluster finishing holes, but of course before they were holes 2-4. Also, the couple of times I've played it the conditions were spotty, including not very good green conditions. There are some world class holes there for sure, including the unique Devil's Cauldron and I really liked the steep faced bunkering on several holes. The course just seemed inconsistent to me. Some great scenery and elk running around everywhere make for a great round regardless.  

All The Best,

[Jeff Mingay]

Doug (and all),

Keep in mind, the summer's are (very) short in Banff... and at Jasper, and at Highlands Links. These are some of the most difficult environments in which to cultivate turf grass for golf. The conditions are very extreme in each case. Very extreme. I was just talking to Tom Forsythe, the superintendent/manager at Highlands Links, about his situation Friday night past.

Modern maintenance expectations have really put places like Banff, Jasper and Highlands Links at a big-time disadvantage. Kevin Pattinson (Banff), Perry Cooper (Jasper) and Tom Forsythe (Highlands Links) deserve a lot of credit for what they deal with on an annual basis. These guys are very qualified and could probably seek out a job at a Toronto club, for example, where the conditions aren't as extreme. But in each case, these guys love the course's they care for. They have great respect for the original designs, and intent to preserve Thompson's work... for that, we should all be greatful.

Sorry for the tirade. And I certainly didn't mean to insinuate you were complaining, Doug. Your comments above simply trigger my brain... which can be very dangerous  

[SL_Solow]

Played it for the first time last summer.  I'm with Ran on this one although I sure would have liked to play the old routing.  Given the location I thought the conditioning was fine.  Travel is truly very easy and the overall experience in touring the area was outstanding.  I thought the bunkering was particularly memorable rivalling the scenery.

[Doug Wright]

Jeff,

I know how tough it is to maintain a golf course in the mountains. I live in Colorado, and though the mountains here aren't as spectacular as the Canadian Rockies, the season's just as short and the conditions just as tough.

All The Best,

[ian]

Excellent course, the bunkering is probably the best of any of the courses. The 16th is one of the best fours in the country, Devil's Cauldren is an oustanding par three. It should be in Canada's top 10 in my opinion. MacWood will kill me for this again, but choosing between Highlands and Banff; I'll take Banff.

Why is it falling; the new nine hurt the routring and the feel; add in some awful renovation and the course has been weakened. Canadian rankings are traditional bad, 10 years ago Hamilton G&CC didn't make the list. This is one of the great layouts in North America.

[Yancey_Beamer]

I played the course in 1995 before the "refurbishing". Three times in three days.This course is on my list of personal favorites.I'm upset that it was changed in any way.In regard to ranking -top ten in Canada.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Ran,
I will post a few more pictures..
The actual ranking is 45!!

Bizarre, I will not list some of the "greats" ahead of it, because you would not know them.

I agree with Jeff to some extent that the rerouting changes the course, but not so significantly that it would fall more than a few spots in the ranking.
That picture was from the new "super" back tee playing 480 yards (as opposed to the old 432, I believe)

TKearns,
The hole Brad Klein mentions in his book is the second hole

Not the one I was refering to as weak.  I really like this hole.  It is a 179 yard par three that if the pin is all the way back it is tough.  Hard to tell whether all the Ross remains, I doubt it as the bunkering seems pretty consistent.

While I love the golf course, I would not choose Banff over Highlands.

A few more pics:
The ninth

The tenth

[Ran Morrissett]

Ben/Jeff,

How would you compare CBH's all galaxy stretch from 2-7 vs. Banff's run of 10-15?

How about CBH underbelly of (I'm guessing) 8-12 vs Banff's weakest run?

Ben, what makes CBH better? Its greens/short game interest?

Cheers,

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Much anticipated?  I think not, but here is my first matchplay of BS vs. JP.

1: Halve
2: JP 1 up, despite solid Ross par three at BS
3: JP 2 up
4: JP 1 up, The Devil's Cauldron beats another strong par 3
5: All Square
6: AS
7: Banff 1 up
8: AS
9: JP 1 up, despite a good par five at Banff
10: AS, despite some of the most beautiful bunkering at JP
11: AS: Two good fours
12: Banff 1 up
13: Banff 2 up
14: Banff 3 up, this despite the great hole at Jasper, which is featured here in the GCA.
15: Banff 3 up.  Perhaps the biggest tie, Banff's former opener the 480 yard beaut, or Jaspers Bad Baby, contrasting and wonderful.
16: BS 2 up.
17: BS 1 up
18: All Square, on one of the truly great par fours that Thompson designed.

I would rather play Jasper for fun quotient, but these are two great courses.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Fabulous pictures. I wouldn't begrudge anyone for placing this courses ahead of Cape Breton. I'm wondering if there are 40 courses in the world better than it, much less Canada. I know ther aren't forty courses I'd rather play. I've got to believe the new configuration really hurts the courses presentation. I reckon the old first may have been the best opener in all of golf. I'm thinking Thompson was one of the few architects who could have designed a golf course that would not be overpowered by this majestic site.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Tom,
Thanks for the compliment on the photos, pretty easy job when that is your backdrop.  I am in complete agreement about Banff, there are certainly a tonne of courses in the 44 spots ahead that are undeserving.  I am sure that does not come as a surprise to you.

Ran,
I guess I miss what Ian Andrew likes about the 16th at Banff, for me that is where the weak spell begins.  16, 17, 18, 1 and 3 are not the strongest at Banff.  I really do not care for 3, the others are fine, but nothing stands out and 18 is disrupted by the road and its traffic.  
I think I have talked enough about 10-15, they are sublime.
Jeff should really answer the CBH questions, he is more of an expert than I, but he is away for a few more days, so I will stand in.
Cape Breton's "galaxy" stretch as you put it is a pretty great stretch.  First of all 2 and 6 really are better than 14 and 15 (Banff's strongest).  Subtract the drama of the hotel and I think that it would not be as close.  That said 3 is a good par three, four a good short par four, not necessarily Stanley's strong suit, and another three at five that is solid.  Six is great and I am a big fan of seven, that hole always gets me.
Compare that to the Banff's best and I think you have a greater variety of holes; 2 threes (similar yardage, true of Banff too), 2 fours (one long, one short) and two fives, which are very different.  So in that sense I give the edge to HL there.

As for the weak holes, you are right with 8 and 9, 10 is not bad, 11 and I sort of like 12, despite many protests.  Overall not as weak as the stretch at Banff and it has the luxury of not ending the course and being sandwiched between some really good golf holes.

What makes it better?  Hmm..  I cannot answer that off the top of my head.  Better variety and better use of undulation.  Greens are probably a touch better and the short game plays more of a role, but I want to give a better answer, so I will think about it more.

[ian]

Ben, I'm talking about 16, as the original routing goes, not the current routing. 16 is a really stong long four with the green hard up against the (Bow?) River.

I think Cape Breton has much more intresting land than Banff. The bunkers at Banff are spectacular, the fairway contours are average. Cape Breton has some of the best fairway contours I've ever seen, but the bunkering is not as strong as Banff or Jaspar.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Ian,
My mistake, I thought you were talking of the new routing and thus the old number two.  My mistake.

16 (new 12) is great, but how about 18 and 1 (15 and 16)?  Those are three great par fours to choose from.

[ian]

Ben, I think that the original opening and closing fours at Banff are fantastic. You are right the current opener might be the weakest on the course and the current closer is a long tough par five (with a Bill Robinson 4 tiered green-or did the eliminate it with the resurfacing program).

Of note on number two (orig.), the horeshoe bunker in front of the green is one of the most unique in golf (its so small, that I don't think you could stand in it-and with the old sand a ball wouldn't stay in it either).

[Ian Andrew]

To all,


I'm looking for any comments or quotes about Banff Springs GC when it first opened for play.
Famous players, architects, writers of note.

[Ben Malach]

Ian,

I know on opening day that they had a local delegation featuring local first nations groups open the course. There are some great photos of this day in the Whyte archives in Banff. There is also a nice set of early photos in the Glenbow archive. But from my basic research on the subject there was no real notable play until the 1950's and 60's when Bing Crosby and Marylin Monroe played the course. It was also during this period that it gained a lot of fame being one of the first courses to be featured on the Shell's Wonderful World of Golf. As a native Calgarian and forth generation Albertan this makes a lot of sense as Alberta was not really an accessible place to holiday till air travel became more common. Let me know if you find anything more.

[Ian Andrew]

I have a picture of Crosby at Jasper Park in the early 1930's for the Silver Totem.
But I've never seen a quote about the course from him.


It was an idea I had for the end of chapter ... just no quote to work with.


And yes, I have seen the pictures you're referring to, they make me very uncomfortable.

[Ben Malach]

Ian,


Good to know, yeah its a pretty uncomfortable situation. There are a lot of really uncomfortable images from southern Alberta made from 1880's-1980's, but that is life on the edges of an empire

[Wayne_Kozun]

Which opening are you referring to Ian, the one of the Thompson course.  It seems like the course has had at least three openings, according to this story from the Banff Springs Golf Club Website:

Opened in 1911 as a nine-hole course laid out by Bill Thomson, a Scottish expatriate who apprenticed under Old Tom Morris at St. Andrews, the Banff Springs Golf Course was expanded to an 18-hole course by Donald Ross in 1924. But it was Stanley Thompson, Canada’s most significant and successful golf architect, who created the layout as it plays today. The course demonstrates his appreciation of traditional links golf courses while emphasizing the subtleties of the mountain landscape. Money was no barrier for the Canadian Pacific Railway (CPR), and when unveiled in 1928, the Banff Springs Golf Course was the most expensive ever built. Thompson’s layout incorporated some of Ross’s holes but also included some stunning new ones—none more iconic than Devil’s Cauldron, a short par 3 over a glacial lake nestled below the impossibly steep face of Mount Rundle. Devil’s Cauldron is one of the most famously scenic holes in the world of golf.

[Ted Sturges]

So...I'm planning a trip to Banff this summer.  I was looking through old threads and found this one.  Any thread that is more than 20 years old, has posts from Ran, Ben Cowan-Dewar and Tom MacWood is worthy of a bump.  Please provide any suggestions for visiting this area.  Of course, my plan is to play the Stanley Thompson golf course, but I would be interested in guidance on any and all things Banff.


TS

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