[Sven Nilsen]

Sean:

I understand your point, but there are quite a few inland courses in the US where the design intent was F&F, but climate makes the maintenance of such conditions a little trickier than it would be at its seaside brethren.  I'd like to include courses on this list where the architecture reflects an intent to have the ball move with the land in the fairways and on and around the greens, even if it may not play to its ideal for all 12 months of the year.

Sven:

That's a loophole we could drive a truck through.  Every single one of my courses is INTENDED to play firm and fast.  The coursesin Bandon and Ballyneal really DO, and that's more significant.

Tom:

What if we said courses that do or come pretty close to playing to the ideal.  I'd rather be inclusive than narrow the list to the dozen or so courses that are truly links courses.  There are several threads on the site discussing what it takes to be classified as a links.  I'd rather avoid that debate here and focus on courses where a drive will bounce and roll out, where an approach hit on a line away from the pin has the chance to feed to the hole and where the best way to play the hole is not a series of straight lines between the tee, the landing area(s) and the flag.

[Steve Salmen]

Sven,

Good topic.  Sorry but my definition of firm and fast changed after a few rounds at Dornoch after heavy downpours.  If the ball runs and does not plug after heavy rain, then it is f&f.  The only course I've played that's firm and fast in the US is Pacific Dunes because I played it in the rain and the only puddle on the course was on the left side of the 12th fairway.  It's really all about the drainage.

That is not to say that courses can't play firm and fast at certain times of year.  Chambers looked gorgeous.  I really want to get up there, but only in the summertime so I can bump the ball around.  I can see Kingsley draining very well and playing fast despite water.  I have played Dunes Club in the rain and it is not particularly firm and fast, quite the opposite despite the base.  The sand base there has not been compacted by the sea for ages.

There are probably only a handful of courses that one can play a bump and (true)run after the rain.  Courses here just don't drain as well.  My two cents.

[Bob_Huntley]

[quote author=Kenny Baer link=topic=45806.msg1007708#msg1007708 date=1283892713


It really depends on what you consider firm and fast; if your definition is the Old Course then outside of Bandon you just aren't going to find true F&F conditions in the US.

 
[/quote]

Kenny,

At MPCC Shore course, golf carts are instructed to drive only on the fairways, never in the second cut or rough.  With two feet of sand under the turf the course plays firm and fast, even during our rainy season. As a member of the R&A and MPCC I can assure there is one course that answers the call.

Bob

[Kris Shreiner]

I agree with many posters that some courses that can play F&F, often do not. SF certainly doesn't play that way quite often, and it drains beautifully. I've played Royal Dornoch many times, and while it is links all day, seldom do I see it in a firey presentation.

It becomes a matter of the regularity of F&F presentation doesn't it? Without getting too subjective, if the course doesn't play F&F at least 50% of the time, can it be labeled as that?

Clearly, certain courses risk dire consequences(witness the Swelter of '10) if they have to manipulate the variables to achieve it and push the edge too much maintain that presentation. While some facilities' golfers place a lot of pressure on the staff in this regard, I believe some compassion and understanding for the supers task has emerged from the lessons learned when pushing the edge for extended periods.

[David Lott]

Interesting concept: a definitive list of something that's subjective, variable and ill defined.

[Sven Nilsen]

Interesting concept: a definitive list of something that's subjective, variable and ill defined.

Value added.  Thanks.

[Jud_T]

Sven,

Unfortunately I have to agree that f&f equals a sand base.  Kingsley was a good test case this weekend.  It rained on and off for 5 out of 6 days and you could still easily bump and run the ball.  That would never happen on clay, regardless of the design intent.

[Andrew Lewis]

Interesting thread, and I'd agree with Steve's comment on drainage and expectations.  At courses like the Bandons, Ballyneal and Kingsley I have never seen a ball come even close to plugging, despite some rounds in pretty nasty and damp conditions.  Sandy soil, fescue surfaces and decent rolling land can apparently do wonders.

I disagree with the Dunes Club based on (i) my round there and (ii) my host's comment to the effect that he has never gotten much bounce or roll off the tee.  That's not to say that running approaches aren't possible because I think they are.  But I consider firm and fast as a concept that applies from tee through the green.

I would suggest adding Spring Valley, the Langford/Moreau course that is a pet favorite of some on this board.  My round there included an hour "intermission" due to very heavy rain.  It was amazing how bouncy the turf was and how well the greens had drained upon resuming our game...perhaps a testament to the architects' abilities.

And although it regrettably is NLE, Mr Doak's Beechtree generally kept things firm and fast, with fairways leaning towards brown during the summer months.

Finally, although I have not experienced MPCC, I'd say that Mr Huntley's are spot on.  If the fairways drive like concrete for carts...

[Tim Bert]

I have only played Long Shadow on back to back days during a drought in Georgia but I must say the course played brilliantly in firm and fast conditions. Don't know if that is the normal maintenance practice.

[Rob Rigg]

Pronghorn firm and fast? Based on only two plays I would disagree - not even close to Tetherow which is fescue based and designed to play like a links. I thought Pronghorn was much more on the target side. JMO - Pete has probably played them more often than I have.

If Pronghorn is firm and fast then so is Juniper - the playing conditions between the two courses are very similar (as are their locations).

CommonGround was playing pretty firm this year - impressive.

Huntsman Springs in Idaho - although it is bluegrass - plays very firm because of the sand cap - not sure if it would be up to GBI standards but it was a lot easier to run a ball onto the greens there than Pronghorn . . .

[Matthew Sander]

Outlaw at Desert Mountain played very firm and fast when I was there. It was winter and they don't overseed this particular course. Praise for this course should probably be in the Nicklaus thread, but the combination of the firm/fast conditions and the design really worked. The course has relatively small bunkers, but the surrounds gather balls and the firm turf allows the bunkers to play much larger. There are many countours and sideboards that encourage the ground game, and the f/f conditioning (at least when I was there) let the course play as it was intended.

[David Kelly]

I haven't been there in a few years but Barona Creek in CA was always pretty firm and fast. Because of having the wrong turf to begin with and the maintenance practices of late, Rustic Canyon struggles to retain f&f conditions.

[Michael Underwood]

Add the following:
Texas - The Rawls Course at Texas Tech University
Georgia - Sea Island Golf Club (Seaside Course)
Nebraska - Bayside - Lake McConaughy

Bob - There are many more fast and firm courses in the U.S. than just those offerings at Bandon. I agree with you about Bandon, but there are several more that play as fast or faster than the Bandon courses.

[Kevin_Reilly]

I don't think any San Francisco city course can be labeled firm and fast, not with the weather

Correct, in my experience.  Too much thatch and the weather is typical SF at all the courses.  Olympic is the firmest with all the fairway sanding over the past several years but I still wouldn't call it F&F, except for the greens which are hard as rocks because they are new.

Gleneagles by the way is rebuilding all nine greens as I type this.  Bent, push up.  They are doing it on a fairly low budget basis...no GPS measurements, etc.  Those greens will be firm but like the others the fairways can never get firm enough without constant verticutting and other measures to reduce thatch.  They don't have the funds to do that kind of maintenance..

[Tom_Doak]

Add the following:
Texas - The Rawls Course at Texas Tech University
Georgia - Sea Island Golf Club (Seaside Course)
Nebraska - Bayside - Lake McConaughy

Bob - There are many more fast and firm courses in the U.S. than just those offerings at Bandon. I agree with you about Bandon, but there are several more that play as fast or faster than the Bandon courses.

Michael:

The Rawls Course was so firm they let the superintendent go because of it, sadly.

My other course which hasn't been mentioned here is Stonewall.  They do a pretty good job of keeping the Old course there firm and fast, because they don't have an unlimited water source to draw from.  And there are lots of holes where you aim to the high side of the approach to feed it onto the green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

We've had a very difficult summer in the Metro NY area, but Mountain Ridge has played F&F for most of the year.

GCGC also plays F&F when Mother Nature permits.

Can a course with narrow fairways play F&F without raising the ire of the members, especially if the rough is penal  ?

[Pete Lavallee]

I haven't been there in a few years but Barona Creek in CA was always pretty firm and fast. Because of having the wrong turf to begin with and the maintenance practices of late, Rustic Canyon struggles to retain f&f conditions.

David,

You're quite right about Barona Creek; Sandy Clark and the Tribe have done a great job keeping this place a lean as possible.

Just a little curious about your RC comment: what turf should they have selected?

[Kevin Pallier]

Sven,

We've had a very difficult summer in the Metro NY area, but Mountain Ridge has played F&F for most of the year.

GCGC also plays F&F when Mother Nature permits.

Patrick

Would Fishers Island be a contender ?

[David_Madison]

Cuscowilla in Georgia - the course just sheds water, and shortly after a heavy downpour shots were running

Mountaintop in Cashiers, NC - the course was built with a huge budget, and is sand capped and has a fantastic drainage system, so even though it is located in an area where other courses tend to be soft (Wade Hampton, for example) the course always stays dry and firm

The Concession in Sarasota, Florida - the course plays very fast, especially around the greens

[Steve Lang]

Add the following:
Texas - The Rawls Course at Texas Tech University

Michael:

The Rawls Course was so firm they let the superintendent go because of it, sadly.

The Rawls course conditioning was definitely hurting last spring when we saw it..  its got to be a real challenge in Lubbock with those soils

[Steve Kline]

I have played very few, what I would consider, F&F courses in the states. It's impossible to compare most U.S. courses to the conditions found in Ireland and the U.K., especially links courses. The only courses I have played in the U.S. that play like that are Bandon Dunes, Bandon Trails, (haven't played Pacific) and Ballyneal. I would say other courses are maintained firm (only small pitchmarks on the greens) but not F&F.

I've been going to Pinehurst for 20 years, have played just about every course there, and have never played any course in the area that I would consider F&F. Sometimes the greens are firm but the surrounds and fairways are never firm enough to qualify in my opinion. I have never once intentionally played a shot at any course there to land 20 yards, even 10 yards, short of a green and run it on or use slopes to kick it to the hole. Plus, the bermuda must be maintained ultra-tight consistently in order to truly be able to putt and chip-and-run from off the greens.

In regards to ANGC, I played with an individual that won the U.S. Mid-Am in a practice round a few years ago. Because he won the Mid-Am he got to play in the Masters. After receiving the invite in December he was allowed to play as much golf as he wanted at ANGC until the tournament ended. He said he took four long weekend trips and the course always played very soft...until he showed up for the tournament. Then, he said it was so firm that he didn't even recognize the golf course any more. Taking this course at his word, I don't see ANGC could qualify as fast and firm. Can it be? Yes, of course. But it doesn't sound like it always is unless those four months were a total abberation for the guy I played with.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Steve,
I manage a bermuda golf course and I have a few comments for you.

1. Although a low height of cut helps with bermuda, the key to fast bermuda is dry soil and a thin mat. You can cut it as low as you like, and maybe that makes for better putting from off the green, but for a bermuda course to play fast through the green you have to keep the mat thinned out. It's not about cutting it low, it's all about keeping it dry as possible and kicking it in the teeth every time it comes close to even think about being happy.

2. I know some will argue this next point, but I do not believe a bermuda course can play fast and look good, at least by US standards. If your bermuda is glowing, its not going to be fast, at least not day in and day out. It needs to be dull and off color, usually due to drought stress.

3. Unlike other grasses, you do not get bermuda fast by withholding nutrients. When bermuda is hungry it gets leggy and loses density. You might be able to maintain fescue on 1 lb N a year, but try that on bermuda and you'll be sorry. It needs appropriate nitrogen and micro nutrients to fight off all the abuse you give it to make it play fast.

4. Lastly, I know my greens are right when there is no dent at all and you bend your ball repair tool if you think you see a make that needs repair. Lots of topdressing and vertical mowing, reasonable fertility, and stingy irrigation make for dry firm bermuda greens.

I guarantee you Pinehurst has the environment to produce F & F if that was their goal.

[Michael Underwood]

Tom - I played the Rawls Course in early July and then again in early August.  The course is being maintained a little different under the the current leadership, but still very fast and firm.  The fairways were running fast and the approaches were plenty firm enough that the ground game was in play.

Steve - I agree with you that the Rawls Course was in poor condition in the spring, but they have had good early summer rainfall in the Lubbock area and the course is in really great condition now.

[Roger Wolfe]

Carolina Golf Club - Charlotte, NC

"Firm and fast" is written verbatim in our strategic plan.

[John Shimp]

Add Palmetto in SC.  Not overseeding this year.  Mini Verde greens are in much better.  It is playing beatifully.

Cape Arundel in Maine.  Ball bounces around there like scotland.

Carolina GC in Charlotte is playing beautifully firm vs the other quality Charlotte courses.  Played there last Friday and thought the conditions were near perfect with the exception of some remaining green stress and softness from the summer.

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