Definitive List of Fast and Firm Courses in the US

[Thomas Patterson]

I've had the great fortune of playing Yeamans Hall Club twice this year, once in May and once in July..both times the course played firm and fast, so I would add it to the list.

Any publics in the Charleston or surrounding area that anyone knows about playing F&F?

[Bill_McBride]

I have only played Long Shadow on back to back days during a drought in Georgia but I must say the course played brilliantly in firm and fast conditions. Don't know if that is the normal maintenance practice.

I played there in May and found the course to be ill kept and shaggy but still reasonably fast.  F&F no.  But it was still more fun to play than Great Waters!

[Jim Franklin]

Put Rock Creek at the top of your list.

Jim:

Not this summer.  They have softened the course a bit in response to grousing about the difficulty.  Better that, than rebuilding a couple of greens, if you ask me.

I haven't seen Common Ground this summer but it was pretty firm last year.

Tom -

Were you still able to play the contours? Especially #7 where you could hit the bank on the left and have the ball drift towards the hole as opposed to going right at the flag and have the ball bounce through. That hole was fun. Or are the greens now so soft you could go right at every flag? Hopefully the membership will realize what a gem they have and fun course to play when it is firm. I would think Mr Foley would appreciate that, but when you get some loud members, sometimes you make changes.

[Bill_McBride]

Steve,
I manage a bermuda golf course and I have a few comments for you.

1. Although a low height of cut helps with bermuda, the key to fast bermuda is dry soil and a thin mat. You can cut it as low as you like, and maybe that makes for better putting from off the green, but for a bermuda course to play fast through the green you have to keep the mat thinned out. It's not about cutting it low, it's all about keeping it dry as possible and kicking it in the teeth every time it comes close to even think about being happy.

2. I know some will argue this next point, but I do not believe a bermuda course can play fast and look good, at least by US standards. If your bermuda is glowing, its not going to be fast, at least not day in and day out. It needs to be dull and off color, usually due to drought stress.

3. Unlike other grasses, you do not get bermuda fast by withholding nutrients. When bermuda is hungry it gets leggy and loses density. You might be able to maintain fescue on 1 lb N a year, but try that on bermuda and you'll be sorry. It needs appropriate nitrogen and micro nutrients to fight off all the abuse you give it to make it play fast.

4. Lastly, I know my greens are right when there is no dent at all and you bend your ball repair tool if you think you see a make that needs repair. Lots of topdressing and vertical mowing, reasonable fertility, and stingy irrigation make for dry firm bermuda greens.

I guarantee you Pinehurst has the environment to produce F & F if that was their goal.

Love that first quote!  Our bermuda has gotten a little too happy the past couple of years.  Our 72" of rain a year contributes.

I can vouch for your firm greens policy.  Never saw a single ball mark last year.  Not that I hit a lot of greens, but David and Nuzzo did.......

[Sven Nilsen]

Should any of the following be considered:

Southern Dunes (AZ)
Erin Hills
Oakmont
NGLA
Montauk Downs
Crystal Downs
Lawsonia
Tobacco Road
Ballyhack
Black Mesa
Clear Creek
Cypress Point
Pebble Beach
Sebonack
Friar's Head
Pine Valley
Sutton Bay
We-Ko-Pa
Devil's Paintbrush

[Thomas Patterson]

Steve,
I manage a bermuda golf course and I have a few comments for you.

1. Although a low height of cut helps with bermuda, the key to fast bermuda is dry soil and a thin mat. You can cut it as low as you like, and maybe that makes for better putting from off the green, but for a bermuda course to play fast through the green you have to keep the mat thinned out. It's not about cutting it low, it's all about keeping it dry as possible and kicking it in the teeth every time it comes close to even think about being happy.

2. I know some will argue this next point, but I do not believe a bermuda course can play fast and look good, at least by US standards. If your bermuda is glowing, its not going to be fast, at least not day in and day out. It needs to be dull and off color, usually due to drought stress.

3. Unlike other grasses, you do not get bermuda fast by withholding nutrients. When bermuda is hungry it gets leggy and loses density. You might be able to maintain fescue on 1 lb N a year, but try that on bermuda and you'll be sorry. It needs appropriate nitrogen and micro nutrients to fight off all the abuse you give it to make it play fast.

4. Lastly, I know my greens are right when there is no dent at all and you bend your ball repair tool if you think you see a make that needs repair. Lots of topdressing and vertical mowing, reasonable fertility, and stingy irrigation make for dry firm bermuda greens.

I guarantee you Pinehurst has the environment to produce F & F if that was their goal.

Thanks for all this great information Don.  Moving from Denver > SC, I had never played on it and I must say, of the courses I have played with Bermuda in SC (Yeamans Hall Club excluded), I'm not a huge fan.  If it was maintained using your advice above, I think my opinion would change dramatically. 

Is it more costly to maintain bermuda F&F?

[Keith Phillips]

Bayonne plays very fast vs anything else I've played in NJ...requires regular syringing to keep turf alive in >90 degree days with high winds - Colorado Golf Club was sure running the one time I played it

[Joel Zuckerman]

One I haven't seen mentioned:  Desert Forest in Scottsdale...the old Red Lawrence design from the 1960s

[Richard Choi]

I think this list is getting a bit specious.

I only have one question for these so called firm and fast courses. Is putting from 100 yards a viable or even preferred play on most holes? If not, it really isn't firm and fast.

And if the green is running 12+, I don't know how that course can be firm and fast. If the green is running that fast, the speed between the green and fairway is too great and people are going to want to use SW around the green. Which means, the ground has to be soft enough so that you can pitch and chip with SW and its divots.

Bandon courses, Ballyneal, Chambers Bay are firm and fast. Wine Valley and Sagebrush are borderline. Common Grounds, not really.

[Jay Flemma]

Isn't there a USGA list which has courses that they list as f&f?  I know it's referenced by Ran and Lester in Ran's Ballyhack article.

[Steve Kline]

Steve,
I manage a bermuda golf course and I have a few comments for you.

1. Although a low height of cut helps with bermuda, the key to fast bermuda is dry soil and a thin mat. You can cut it as low as you like, and maybe that makes for better putting from off the green, but for a bermuda course to play fast through the green you have to keep the mat thinned out. It's not about cutting it low, it's all about keeping it dry as possible and kicking it in the teeth every time it comes close to even think about being happy.

2. I know some will argue this next point, but I do not believe a bermuda course can play fast and look good, at least by US standards. If your bermuda is glowing, its not going to be fast, at least not day in and day out. It needs to be dull and off color, usually due to drought stress.

3. Unlike other grasses, you do not get bermuda fast by withholding nutrients. When bermuda is hungry it gets leggy and loses density. You might be able to maintain fescue on 1 lb N a year, but try that on bermuda and you'll be sorry. It needs appropriate nitrogen and micro nutrients to fight off all the abuse you give it to make it play fast.

4. Lastly, I know my greens are right when there is no dent at all and you bend your ball repair tool if you think you see a make that needs repair. Lots of topdressing and vertical mowing, reasonable fertility, and stingy irrigation make for dry firm bermuda greens.

I guarantee you Pinehurst has the environment to produce F & F if that was their goal.

Thanks Don. I agree all of Pinehurst has the environment /climate to have ture F&F but at least at the resort that idoes not seem to be their desire. Just last week we asked about the possbility of going back to Bermuda greens and they said no way. Of course that means the greens will almost always be too soft for 4-5 months of the year.

[Ryan Farrow]

Lets start the China list,


and add the Weiskopf course.... The Dunes at Shenzhou Penninsula..... showing everyone how great Paspalum CAN BE.

National Golf Links  and Huntington Valley are off the charts, as is Oakmont for F&F..... And they are pretty green. I just have to say that I Prefer that to the fescue firm and fast a Bandon, where you catch a few shots that are just pure sand with no healthy turf underneath. Is this a new thing...? my first experience with the grass, but its kind of frustrating some times.

[Sven Nilsen]

Isn't there a USGA list which has courses that they list as f&f?  I know it's referenced by Ran and Lester in Ran's Ballyhack article.

From the USGA site:

Ballyhack Golf Club in Roanoke, Va.
Bandan Dunes in Bandan, Ore.
Calusa Pines Golf Club in Naples, Fla.
Lahontan Golf Club in Truckee, Calif.
Sagebrush Golf and Sporting Club in Quilchena, B.C.
Southern Dunes in Maricopa, Ariz.
The Club at Clear Creek in Minden, NV

Interesting that the USGA does not know how to spell Bandon.

This is certainly a representative list, and should not be confused with the "definitive" list in the first post.

The article (found here:  http://www.usga.org/news/2010/June/Firm-And-Fast,-At-Last!/) takes a stab at defining F&F.  From their definition, it seems to be more about the maintenance than the land or location. 

[Tim Pitner]

I think this list is getting a bit specious.

I only have one question for these so called firm and fast courses. Is putting from 100 yards a viable or even preferred play on most holes? If not, it really isn't firm and fast.

Bandon courses, Ballyneal, Chambers Bay are firm and fast. Wine Valley and Sagebrush are borderline. Common Grounds, not really.

At CommonGround (singular), the fairway grass height is too high for truly fast conditions, but the course is firm. 

[jonathan_becker]

Sven,

Looking at your two Michigan courses, put me down for a soaked Dunes Club when I played it.  Also, Lost Dunes was pretty fast at The Mashie as you can attest.  I think it poured the few days beforehand and LD was still rolling out.  I was impressed.

[David Camponi]

Don't know if you can truly acheive firm and fast just based on conditioning; the course must some underlying factors that allow it to acheive true f&f conditions.

Saw someone mentioned Cuscowilla; played it 10+ times and never has it been firm and fast; clay soil, unbelievable humidity, bent greens that are toss up ball marks the size of silver dollars with any shot, ball marks the size of quarters on chips.

Prairie Dunes was very F&F the few times I played it; sandy soil and constant wind allow it to get that way. 

ANGC firm and fast as well although I have only played it in March. 

I agree w/ Bob in regards to courses on the Monterrey Pennisula, just look at Pebble this year; was the definition of F&F.

I enjoy courses that play firm and fast w/o fescue turf; for me the lack of healthy turf under your ball limits options instead of increasing them; you must putt or use a straight faced club from off the greens at Bandon as where at Sand Hills you have the option to do whichever. Impossible to use a lob wedge when chipping off of basically hard dirt.

[David Kelly]

David,

Prairie Dunes was definitely not F&F this summer (9 inches of rain on the July 4th weekend will do that) as they have taken measures to make sure the turf stayed healthy in a hot and wet summer.  September and October are usually the best times to catch PD in a firm condition.

[Patrick Kiser]

The Rawls from 8-05 was damn fast.  

I don't think Black Mesa would fit into the F&F when I played it back in 4-09.  

Same goes for Clear Creek at the recent KP.  Certainly not slow, but I wouldn't call it F&F.  Probably too early in the season.  Jonathan might be able to update us on that.

All this talk of Rustic Canyon and no mention of ... Soule Park?  What gives?  That place is definitely F&F.

Camp Pendleton was F&F when I played it earlier this year.  

Did not think We-Ko-Pa was F&F.  If anything too soft when I played it around 8-05.  

Up here in the immediate Bay Area, I'd give Metropolitan a semi F&F.  Played it Sunday and it was rolling pretty decently.

Looking forward to Common Ground in a couple of weeks.

[Pete Lavallee]

Camp Pendleton was F&F when I played it earlier this year.  

There must be 2 Camp Pendeltons; because the one I know is always shaggy and wet?

[Chris Tritabaugh]

I wanted to weigh in from the perspective of a northern superintendent who maintains fast and firm but cannot do it all of the time.

The site we are on is harsh. Heavy clay with underlying ledge rock; sometimes only a few inches from the surface. In the spring and fall when we get a lot of rain (2-3 inches in a one week period) the course is not very fast and not very firm. However, I think it is unfair to judge that we are not a fast and firm course because of these conditions. A northern course or any course not on linksland or sandy soil should be judged to be fast and firm by what the conditions are when irrigation is necessary. Not to say that someone should think a clay soiled course in a wet spring is fast and firm but don't discount the fact that it can be fast and firm.

Its also worth noting that even on our heavy soils we return to fast and firm much quicker when it is wet because of the fact that we do not keep the soils wet during dry periods. I would love to put in drainage such that we could always be fast and firm but dollars and cents prevent it. We will just have to settle for being fast and firm when we can be.

[Patrick Kiser]

Camp Pendleton was F&F when I played it earlier this year.  

There must be 2 Camp Pendeltons; because the one I know is always shaggy and wet?

Pete,

Normally maybe you're right, but when I played it (my first time) I was pleasantly surprised.  Quite dry as I recall.  The only thing I didn't quite like were the softish greens. 

I know David S. and Jon S. played it not too long ago either and maybe they can give their take from their experience.

Regardless, a fun little track and the price was perfect for what it offers.

[Sven Nilsen]

I wanted to weigh in from the perspective of a northern superintendent who maintains fast and firm but cannot do it all of the time.

The site we are on is harsh. Heavy clay with underlying ledge rock; sometimes only a few inches from the surface. In the spring and fall when we get a lot of rain (2-3 inches in a one week period) the course is not very fast and not very firm. However, I think it is unfair to judge that we are not a fast and firm course because of these conditions. A northern course or any course not on linksland or sandy soil should be judged to be fast and firm by what the conditions are when irrigation is necessary. Not to say that someone should think a clay soiled course in a wet spring is fast and firm but don't discount the fact that it can be fast and firm.

Its also worth noting that even on our heavy soils we return to fast and firm much quicker when it is wet because of the fact that we do not keep the soils wet during dry periods. I would love to put in drainage such that we could always be fast and firm but dollars and cents prevent it. We will just have to settle for being fast and firm when we can be.

Chris:

Thanks for adding to the discussion.  Its refreshing to hear about courses where the maintenance meld is designed to promote F&F, even if natural conditions won't permit all of the time.

[Mark_Fine]

Someone must have stated this by now in this thread, but play almost any muni course in the country in dry hot weather and you will get firm and fast. 

While many of the courses listed so far "can play firm and fast", many do not on a regular basis.  Soooooo many factors determine conditions of play.  Also what defines firm and fast?   For example, some courses have firm fairways and soft greens    However, with the weather we've had this year (at least on the East coast), you see that on many courses right now. 

[Adam Clayman]

A definitive list should only include courses that are designed for that ideal meld.

There's nothing worse than playing a course that is rock hard, but the design was thoughtless in not allowing the shots to utilize the f and f

[Mac Plumart]

Lookout Mountain in GA seems to be pretty darn fast and firm.