Definitive List of Fast and Firm Courses in the US

[Sven Nilsen]

After a 4-day weekend at Kingsley, I've truly got the jones for courses that play true to links style (under normal conditions as the heat and humidity in 2010 have probably softened quite a few on the list).  I'll start with a short list of courses on this side of the pond that play this way and would love to hear others chime in with their suggestions (I'll update the list as courses are mentioned in the thread):

Consistently F&F:

Pacific Dunes (Doak)
Bandon Dunes (Kidd)
Bandon Trails (C&C)
Old MacDonald (Doak/Urbina)
Ballyneal (Doak)
Kingsley (DeVries)
Greywalls (DeVries)

High Potential for F&F:

Arizona
Desert Mountain (Outlaw) (JN)
Desert Forest (Lawrence)
Vista Verde (Kavanaugh)

California
San Francisco* (Tillinghast)
MPCC Shore (Strantz)
Cal Club (Macan, Philips)
Rustic Canyon* (Hanse)
Barona Creek (Baird, Eckenrode)

Colorado
Common Ground (Doak)
Colorado GC (C&C)

Florida
The Concession (JN)

Georgia
ANGC* (MacKenzie, Jones)
Sea Island (Seaside)
Cuscowilla (C&C)
Long Shadow* (Young)

Kansas
Prairie Dunes* (Maxwell)

Idaho
Huntsman Springs (Kidd)

Illinois
Shepherds Crook (Foster)

Maine
Cape Arundel (Travis)

Maryland
Beechtree (NLE) (Doak)

Massachusetts
Sankaty Head (Armstrong)
The Country Club (Hunnewell, Curtis, Bacon, Campbell, Flynn)
Old Sandwich (C&C)
Boston GC (Hanse)

Michigan
Lost Dunes (Doak)
Dunes Club* (Nugent)

Montana
Rock Creek (Doak)

Nebraska
Wild Horse (Axland & Proctor)
Sand Hills (C&C)
Bayside (Axland & Proctor)

New Jersey
Hidden Creek (C&C)
Mountain Ridge (Ross)
Bayonne (Bergstol)

New York
Garden City (Emmet)
Shinnecock (Dunn, Wilson)
Fishers Island (Raynor)
NGLA (CBM, Raynor)

North Carolina
Pinehurst* (Ross et al.)
Diamond Creek (Fazio)
Carolina GC (Ross)
Mountaintop (Fazio)

Oregon
Pronghorn* (JN)(Fazio)
Tetherow (Kidd)
Juniper (Harbottle)

Pennsylvania
Huntingdon Valley (Flynn)
Merion (depends who you ask)
Stonewall (Old) (Doak)
Oakmont (Fownes)

Rhode Island
Newport CC (Tillinghast, Davis)

South Carolina
The Ocean Course (Dye)
Yeamans Hall (Raynor)
Palmetto (Hitchcock, Leeds, MacKenzie)

Texas
Wolf Point (Nuzzo)
Rawls Course (Doak)

Washington
Chambers Bay (RTJ Jr.)
Wine Valley (Hixson)

Wisconsin
Spring Valley (Langford & Moreau)

Wyoming
Rochelle Ranch (Kavanaugh)

Canada
Sagebrush (Zokol, Whitman, Suny)

*denotes courses where the F&F nature has been questioned

[JLahrman]

Are there any requirements for quality of the course?

I could give you a bunch of unwatered Midwestern courses that play like blacktop in the summer.  I wouldn't send people on this site off to play them though.

[Sven Nilsen]

Are there any requirements for quality of the course?

I could give you a bunch of unwatered Midwestern courses that play like blacktop in the summer.  I wouldn't send people on this site off to play them though.

Use your own judgment.  But with the way the weather has been this summer I think it would be hard to find many courses that play like a parking lot.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Huntingdon Valley and Merion.


http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/huntingdon-valley

[PCCraig]

Sankaty Head in MA is consistently F&F. As are nearby TCC, Old Sandwich, and Boston GC (weather permitting).

Many of the courses I've played in the Pinehurst area are F&F because the sandy soil drains so well. In Michigan you could add Lost Dunes and Dunes Club as courses built on sand as well that drain well.

Tough to find too many courses in the Chicago area that are consistently F&F because during certain times of the year it's impossible not to have a slow golf course.

[Jim Franklin]

Put Rock Creek at the top of your list.

[Will MacEwen]

Sagebrush if the committee is accepting Canadian entries

[Phil_the_Author]

San Francisco Golf Club.. They also expect the PLAYER to play FAST...

[Kenny Baer]

Sand Hills definately plays firm and fast; played it after a torrential downpour and the fairways and greens still ran out very well.

Prairie Dunes plays firm and fast as well; as firm and fast as a fescue covered course...no... but still plenty firm; I saw a ball hit off the tee that landed 20 yards behind my tee ball end up 40 yards ahead of it.

Augusta National is firm and fast; the greens are rock hard and the fairways have plenty of run.

Other than that I can not think of one course in GA that is consistently f&f.

It really depends on what you consider firm and fast; if your definition is the Old Course then outside of Bandon you just aren't going to find true F&F conditions in the US.

I think Diamond Creek plays very firm for a mountain course; the sand capped fways really help in that regard.  

[Nick_Christopher]

I have only been to Prairie Dunes once, but it didn't play firm and fast.  I was there in July perhaps two years ago, and have subsequently been told that watering is a must in the hot Kansas summer.  I think in September / October, it could be very different.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Wolf Point, and it's not even fescue.

[hick]

Newport  CC when we have a hot dry summer.

[Matt_Cohn]

What's the one course that's put fast and firm in the news and on TV a couple weeks ago? 

[Tom_Doak]

Put Rock Creek at the top of your list.

Jim:

Not this summer.  They have softened the course a bit in response to grousing about the difficulty.  Better that, than rebuilding a couple of greens, if you ask me.

I haven't seen Common Ground this summer but it was pretty firm last year.

[Tim Pitner]

I have only been to Prairie Dunes once, but it didn't play firm and fast.  I was there in July perhaps two years ago, and have subsequently been told that watering is a must in the hot Kansas summer.  I think in September / October, it could be very different.

I had a similar experience with Wild Horse--not F&F in July.  

Tom,

I can confirm CommonGround remains firm this year. 

[Sean_A]

Folks keep going on about dependency on the weather.  By definition, a f&f course is one which is so (relative to other courses, but never considered wet) all year round.  THIS IS THE HUGE BENEFIT OF SUCH A COURSE - a consistency of turf that can still be made quicker if need be.  A course which is wet, than dry than this than that is not f&f.  It may happen to be so on a given day, but that isn't how it would be defined. 

Ciao

[Sven Nilsen]

Folks keep going on about dependency on the weather.  By definition, a f&f course is one which is so (relative to other courses, but never considered wet) all year round.  THIS IS THE HUGE BENEFIT OF SUCH A COURSE - a consistency of turf that can still be made quicker if need be.  A course which is wet, than dry than this than that is not f&f.  It may happen to be so on a given day, but that isn't how it would be defined. 

Ciao

Sean:

I understand your point, but there are quite a few inland courses in the US where the design intent was F&F, but climate makes the maintenance of such conditions a little trickier than it would be at its seaside brethren.  I'd like to include courses on this list where the architecture reflects an intent to have the ball move with the land in the fairways and on and around the greens, even if it may not play to its ideal for all 12 months of the year.

[jonathan_becker]

Hidden Creek

I just missed playing it two weeks ago due to lack of daylight, but every single person I've talked to about the place says it's fast.

I'm sure there are many on here that can provide update accounts.

[Sean_A]

Folks keep going on about dependency on the weather.  By definition, a f&f course is one which is so (relative to other courses, but never considered wet) all year round.  THIS IS THE HUGE BENEFIT OF SUCH A COURSE - a consistency of turf that can still be made quicker if need be.  A course which is wet, than dry than this than that is not f&f.  It may happen to be so on a given day, but that isn't how it would be defined. 

Ciao

Sean:

I understand your point, but there are quite a few inland courses in the US where the design intent was F&F, but climate makes the maintenance of such conditions a little trickier than it would be at its seaside brethren.  I'd like to include courses on this list where the architecture reflects an intent to have the ball move with the land in the fairways and on and around the greens, even if it may not play to its ideal for all 12 months of the year.

Sven

Yes, I see where you are coming from, but f&f is a two fold deal; design and turf.  Most, perhaps all of the courses I know east of the Mississippi can only be f&f in the summer if the club allows it.  This usually means clay - like based courses and we all know how they perform in spring and in times of heavy rain - which is why I say f&f cannot truly be based on the season.  Where I live right now in England is essentially the same thing but there isn't enough snow to actually close down courses long term.  

Ciao  

[Carl Johnson]

. . . A course which is wet, than dry than this than that is not f&f.  It may happen to be so on a given day, but that isn't how it would be defined.  

Ciao

Sean:

I understand your point, but there are quite a few inland courses in the US where the design intent was F&F, but climate makes the maintenance of such conditions a little trickier than it would be at its seaside brethren.  I'd like to include courses on this list where the architecture reflects an intent to have the ball move with the land in the fairways and on and around the greens, even if it may not play to its ideal for all 12 months of the year.

Sean, I believe I understand what you are saying, but I agree with Sven.  (Since Sven's set this discussion up, I'd defer to him even if I did not agree.)  I've never played a links-like course in the US, athough some purport to be, and I hope to be able to play them some day.  For most of us here in the US, the best we can do is aspire to f&f conditions "all of the time."  Many courses do not.  Many aspire to s&s all of the time.  Some do the best they can to be f&f.  My course (Carolina GC in Charlotte) is on southeastern US clay.  Right now we're trying to keep it as f&f as possible.  Today it really was f&f.  I understand that our club waters fairways as little as possible.  After heavy rains, the course will not absorb water like the links in Scotland.  That's a fact.  Still, I think there is some value in indentifying those courses that do the best they can to play f&f under the circumstances.

[Joel Zuckerman]

MPCC--Shore.

Played it a week ago and it was like lightning.

[PCCraig]

The Ocean Course at Kiawah

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

I understand your point, but there are quite a few inland courses in the US where the design intent was F&F, but climate makes the maintenance of such conditions a little trickier than it would be at its seaside brethren.  I'd like to include courses on this list where the architecture reflects an intent to have the ball move with the land in the fairways and on and around the greens, even if it may not play to its ideal for all 12 months of the year.

Sven:

That's a loophole we could drive a truck through.  Every single one of my courses is INTENDED to play firm and fast.  The coursesin Bandon and Ballyneal really DO, and that's more significant.

[Mike Benham]

California
San Francisco
MPCC Shore

I don't think any San Francisco city course can be labeled firm and fast, not with the weather ... I have heard that SFGC has not been firm and fast for many years.

I would Cal Club as a course that has been renovated with the intention of being maintained and played firm and fast.

Rustic Canyon was designed with the F&F mantra, not sure if the maintenance is keeping it that way of late ...

[Pete_Pittock]

Add in Oregon
Pronghorn (Fazio) and Pronghorn (Nicklaus)
Tetherow
Add in Washington
Wine Valley