[George Pazin]

The mags - Golf and GD - reported that Pavin had not consulted Zinger, but had read his book. (Anyone on here read it? Just curious.)

As for Hoffman, he had one hot weekend - does that mean he'll be hot at the end of the month? Not if the past history of golf is any kind of indicator.

Imho, Ryder Cup Captain is the single most overrated job on the face of the earth. In every sense of the word. Overrated in difficulty, overrated in impact, overrated overrated overrated. Did I mention overrated?

Some guys win events and miss cuts the next week. Other guys miss cuts and win majors the next week. Some guys come into the RC inexperienced and end up thriving on the event. Other guys come in ranked #1 and #2 and end up losing as a fourball.

Any predictions that come true - or don't come true - regarding the RC are largely luck. That's the nature of golf.

Everything about the RC is overrated - except the actual event, which is a lot of fun. As it should be.

[Phil McDade]

I'm not necessarily saying Pavin consulted Zinger on the four actual picks; I wouldn't be surprised at all if he didn't. But I would be surprised if Pavin hadn't at least had a conversation sometime in the past months about the RCup captaincy, what it all entails, and what worked for Zinger and what he might have done differently.

George -- I actually think there is alot of difficulty and choices in being captain of a RCup team; it's an under-rated job. The head coach of the Indy Colts (a Wisconsin native ) doesn't stay up nights wondering who he's starting at quarterback on Sundays. The captain of a RCup team, meanwhile, has two days of eight matches in which he has to bench, for every match, a third of a squad that is roughly comparable in terms of abilities, and streaky to boot.

For as good as each of them are at their sports, Payton Manning is a whole lot more consistent than Tiger Woods (or any golfer, for that matter). That makes putting out Manning on Sundays an easier call than putting out Tiger next month (esp. in foursomes ).

Picking Hoffman would've been dumb; one good round does make for a solid RCup resume.

I would also note that, for the record, I was one of the few on this board who (correctly ) argued the US would have a very good shot at winning at Valhalla in '08.

[Sean Leary]

So if you are Pavin, how many times do you play Tiger? In which format?

I guess I run him out 1st morning and see how he plays. What format is Friday AM?

[Tim Martin]

The mags - Golf and GD - reported that Pavin had not consulted Zinger, but had read his book. (Anyone on here read it? Just curious.)

As for Hoffman, he had one hot weekend - does that mean he'll be hot at the end of the month? Not if the past history of golf is any kind of indicator.

Imho, Ryder Cup Captain is the single most overrated job on the face of the earth. In every sense of the word. Overrated in difficulty, overrated in impact, overrated overrated overrated. Did I mention overrated?

Some guys win events and miss cuts the next week. Other guys miss cuts and win majors the next week. Some guys come into the RC inexperienced and end up thriving on the event. Other guys come in ranked #1 and #2 and end up losing as a fourball.

Any predictions that come true - or don't come true - regarding the RC are largely luck. That's the nature of golf.

Everything about the RC is overrated - except the actual event, which is a lot of fun. As it should be.

George-I agree. These guys act like picking out the outfits is akin to rocket science. You got a pile of the best players in the world on both sides. The winning captain is always anointed a genius and the loser a dummy. You could probably pick the partners out of a hat and have a similar degree of success. The last really boneheaded pick was Curtis Strange by captain Lanny Wadkins. The rest is about who is hot on those three days and who is not. My two cents.

[Phil McDade]

So if you are Pavin, how many times do you play Tiger? In which format?

I guess I run him out 1st morning and see how he plays. What format is Friday AM?

Sean:

Not sure if they've agreed on the line-up; it's been switched between foursomes and fourballs for morning play over the years. My guess is that most players would prefer fourballs, because you get a chance in the morning to hit more shots. Alternate shot at 7 a.m., or whatever time they start this thing, seems like a tough introduction to the Cup.

I wouldn't let Tiger anywhere near a foursomes match; I'd sit him for both. Tiger's play of late is the kind suited perfectly for fourballs and ill-suited for foursomes -- consistent in his inconsistency. Obviously, he's a guy capable of running off some birdies, but I wouldn't want him standing over an 8-footer for par on the 15th hole if his team is 2 down, or on the tee of a tight fairway on the back nine 2 down. His game is just not dependable these days in the foursomes format.

I'd send him out early in singles. If he's on and wins, it gives the team a big boost. If he's off, you still have plenty of time to recover. And Tiger's an early-morning guy -- send him out first or second.

[Phil McDade]

The mags - Golf and GD - reported that Pavin had not consulted Zinger, but had read his book. (Anyone on here read it? Just curious.)

As for Hoffman, he had one hot weekend - does that mean he'll be hot at the end of the month? Not if the past history of golf is any kind of indicator.

Imho, Ryder Cup Captain is the single most overrated job on the face of the earth. In every sense of the word. Overrated in difficulty, overrated in impact, overrated overrated overrated. Did I mention overrated?

Some guys win events and miss cuts the next week. Other guys miss cuts and win majors the next week. Some guys come into the RC inexperienced and end up thriving on the event. Other guys come in ranked #1 and #2 and end up losing as a fourball.

Any predictions that come true - or don't come true - regarding the RC are largely luck. That's the nature of golf.

Everything about the RC is overrated - except the actual event, which is a lot of fun. As it should be.

George-I agree. These guys act like picking out the outfits is akin to rocket science. You got a pile of the best players in the world on both sides. The winning captain is always anointed a genius and the loser a dummy. You could probably pick the partners out of a hat and have a similar degree of success. The last really boneheaded pick was Curtis Strange by captain Lanny Wadkins. The rest is about who is hot on those three days and who is not. My two cents.

Tim:

James stupidly sat three players until singles play at Brookline in '99, virtually assuring the US could easily make up three of its four-point overnight deficit because those three players -- Vande Velde, Coltart, and Sandelin -- would be intimidated by the rowdy crowds and unfamiliar with the course. And he sent them out among his first six players, assuring the US of building momentum.

Strange stupidly sat his four best players on singles play until the very end in 2002, giving Euro a chance to build momentum early in front of a home crowd when the overnight score was tied. US loss.

Sutton stupidly paired two guys who can't stand each other (Woods and Mickelson) -- twice! in the same day! -- in 2004, giving Euro two victories and a huge psychological boost on its way to a 6-1/2-1-1/2 first-day lead, which essentially ended the Cup.

[Sean Leary]

So if you are Pavin, how many times do you play Tiger? In which format?

I guess I run him out 1st morning and see how he plays. What format is Friday AM?

Sean:

Not sure if they've agreed on the line-up; it's been switched between foursomes and fourballs for morning play over the years. My guess is that most players would prefer fourballs, because you get a chance in the morning to hit more shots. Alternate shot at 7 a.m., or whatever time they start this thing, seems like a tough introduction to the Cup.

I wouldn't let Tiger anywhere near a foursomes match; I'd sit him for both. Tiger's play of late is the kind suited perfectly for fourballs and ill-suited for foursomes -- consistent in his inconsistency. Obviously, he's a guy capable of running off some birdies, but I wouldn't want him standing over an 8-footer for par on the 15th hole if his team is 2 down, or on the tee of a tight fairway on the back nine 2 down. His game is just not dependable these days in the foursomes format.

I'd send him out early in singles. If he's on and wins, it gives the team a big boost. If he's off, you still have plenty of time to recover. And Tiger's an early-morning guy -- send him out first or second.

Phil,

Just checked and they are playing fourballs in the morning. I agree with you in theory on Tiger and foursomes. But if he goes out and plays well in fourbalsl, do you still sit him? Man, that is hard to do, me thinks...

[Tim Martin]

Imho, Ryder Cup Captain is the single most overrated job on the face of the earth. In every sense of the word. Overrated in difficulty, overrated in impact, overrated overrated overrated. Did I mention overrated?

Sweet Jesus Christ. And now, about to enter the fray, is the "Captainess", as she has been dubbed by our "gritty, little bulldog" of a captain. Why do I have the feeling that this woman is going to make Fred Couples' first wife look Stepfordlike?

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/golf/meet-lisa-pavin-the-us-secret-weapon-2074307.html

*Note* Do not read the above link on a full stomach.

David-Although I have not eaten dinner yet the referenced article did cause me to dry heave. She scares me.

[Phil McDade]

Sean:

As I recall, the first foursomes matches are sent out before the last of the fourball matches are completed. So I think Pavin has to have a sense of whether or not Tiger is playing both matches on the first day before it begins. I wouldn't play him in both matches on the first day, but might on the second day if he does well on the first day.

The US squad to me seems to have a good mix of solid fourball (D. Johnson, Bubba, Mickelson, Tiger, Mahan) and foursomes (Stricker, Furyk, Kuchar, Z. Johnson) guys. I think Tiger's playing partners are pretty limited -- I'd be shocked if he plays with anyone else other than Furyk or Stricker. Both are solid foursomes players, and they're the kind of guys who Tiger actually respects and would listen to in a foursomes match, as opposed to the freewheeling nature of fourballs.

[Tim Martin]

I'm not necessarily saying Pavin consulted Zinger on the four actual picks; I wouldn't be surprised at all if he didn't. But I would be surprised if Pavin hadn't at least had a conversation sometime in the past months about the RCup captaincy, what it all entails, and what worked for Zinger and what he might have done differently.

George -- I actually think there is alot of difficulty and choices in being captain of a RCup team; it's an under-rated job. The head coach of the Indy Colts (a Wisconsin native ) doesn't stay up nights wondering who he's starting at quarterback on Sundays. The captain of a RCup team, meanwhile, has two days of eight matches in which he has to bench, for every match, a third of a squad that is roughly comparable in terms of abilities, and streaky to boot.

For as good as each of them are at their sports, Payton Manning is a whole lot more consistent than Tiger Woods (or any golfer, for that matter). That makes putting out Manning on Sundays an easier call than putting out Tiger next month (esp. in foursomes ).

Picking Hoffman would've been dumb; one good round does make for a solid RCup resume.

I would also note that, for the record, I was one of the few on this board who (correctly ) argued the US would have a very good shot at winning at Valhalla in '08.

Phil- To compare the Ryder Cup Captain`s duties to that of a NFL coach is a poor analogy. All Pavin can do is get his guys to #1 tee box and cross his fingers. An NFL offensive and defensive coordinator orchestrate the entire game.

[Bill Brightly]

I'm not necessarily saying Pavin consulted Zinger on the four actual picks; I wouldn't be surprised at all if he didn't. But I would be surprised if Pavin hadn't at least had a conversation sometime in the past months about the RCup captaincy, what it all entails, and what worked for Zinger and what he might have done differently.

George -- I actually think there is alot of difficulty and choices in being captain of a RCup team; it's an under-rated job. The head coach of the Indy Colts (a Wisconsin native ) doesn't stay up nights wondering who he's starting at quarterback on Sundays. The captain of a RCup team, meanwhile, has two days of eight matches in which he has to bench, for every match, a third of a squad that is roughly comparable in terms of abilities, and streaky to boot.

For as good as each of them are at their sports, Payton Manning is a whole lot more consistent than Tiger Woods (or any golfer, for that matter). That makes putting out Manning on Sundays an easier call than putting out Tiger next month (esp. in foursomes ).

Picking Hoffman would've been dumb; one good round does make for a solid RCup resume.

I would also note that, for the record, I was one of the few on this board who (correctly ) argued the US would have a very good shot at winning at Valhalla in '08.

Phil- To compare the Ryder Cup Captain`s duties to that of a NFL coach is a poor analogy. All Pavin can do is get his guys to #1 tee box and cross his fingers. An NFL offensive and defensive coordinator orchestrate the entire game.

A better analogy might be selecting and coaching the US Olympic basketball team, assuming you would be playing against an equally talented team of European players who could easily win. Selecting the right guys out of a league full of talented players is the toughest task, selecting "playing time" and line-ups is nearly as important.

[Tim Martin]

Perhaps a better analogy of the Ryder Cup captain would be that of a thoroughbred horse trainer, who replaces a trainer a week before the KY Derby or Breeders Cup....

1. Does the horse/golfer look good?
2. Is the horse/golfer healthy?
3. Is the horse/golfer eating well?
4. Is the horse/golfer playing well with his stablemates?
5. Finally, the captain/trainer gets to lead the horse/golfer to the track and then retreat to his happy place and pray like hell that today is his day.

David-Spot on. Riding around in a golf cart is inherently different than being on the sideline of a basketball or football game making substitutions, calling plays and employing strategy. Even if you are lucky enough to have the "Captainess" close by.

[Bill_McBride]

The mags - Golf and GD - reported that Pavin had not consulted Zinger, but had read his book. (Anyone on here read it? Just curious.)

As for Hoffman, he had one hot weekend - does that mean he'll be hot at the end of the month? Not if the past history of golf is any kind of indicator.

Imho, Ryder Cup Captain is the single most overrated job on the face of the earth. In every sense of the word. Overrated in difficulty, overrated in impact, overrated overrated overrated. Did I mention overrated?

Some guys win events and miss cuts the next week. Other guys miss cuts and win majors the next week. Some guys come into the RC inexperienced and end up thriving on the event. Other guys come in ranked #1 and #2 and end up losing as a fourball.

Any predictions that come true - or don't come true - regarding the RC are largely luck. That's the nature of golf.

Everything about the RC is overrated - except the actual event, which is a lot of fun. As it should be.

George-I agree. These guys act like picking out the outfits is akin to rocket science. You got a pile of the best players in the world on both sides. The winning captain is always anointed a genius and the loser a dummy. You could probably pick the partners out of a hat and have a similar degree of success. The last really boneheaded pick was Curtis Strange by captain Lanny Wadkins. The rest is about who is hot on those three days and who is not. My two cents.

Sutton stupidly paired two guys who can't stand each other (Woods and Mickelson) -- twice! in the same day! -- in 2004, giving Euro two victories and a huge psychological boost on its way to a 6-1/2-1-1/2 first-day lead, which essentially ended the Cup.

Not to mention the cowboy hat!  That made me cringe.......

[Phil McDade]

Good golly -- did I say that being captain of the RCup was more difficult than being coach of a professional football team?

I'd argue some parts of coaching football are easier -- with Peyton Manning, you know what you're going to get. With Tiger these days, not so much. Sure, there's play-calling, and end-of-game time management, but the substitution issue is pretty much the same, and each largely depends on events outside their control that determine the outcome. I mean, you can call the most brilliant play in the world, but that won't stop Brett Favre from throwing yet another ill-conceived interception during the playoffs.

Tim -- this:

"An NFL offensive and defensive coordinator orchestrate the entire game...."

is actually one of the worst things about professional sports these days. That's why I think the Ryder Cup, and post-season hockey, make for some of the most compelling sports to watch -- lack of coaches constantly mucking about, stopping the game, and thinking what they do on the sidelines is more important than what happens on the playing field.

[Phil McDade]

Chris:

I'd agree with Woods/Stricker as an early four-ball match. Tiger likes playing with Strick.

Mahan is about the last guy I'd sit for four-balls; he can be a real birdie machine, and he's now used to the RCup atmosphere. He paired with both Leonard and Mickelson in four-balls two years ago and had a win and a halve; certainly another go with Mickelson would make sense.

I might give the D. Johnson/Watson pairing a go at it -- the course is said to play long, and those two are maybe just the right pair to bomb away all day long in the fourball format. I'd put them out as the last pairing, as I'd be reluctant to send either of the two out in foursomes.

Cink and Overton might be a good pairing; Cink is 1-0-3 in fourballs in the RCup, so he's at a minimum not a drag on the team, and the kind of veteran RCupper who can help Overton out. Overton's not real accurate off the tee, which is less of a problem in fourballs than foursomes, and he's ranked 16th on Tour in birdies per round -- the kind of player well-suited for fourballs.

I'd sit Furyk; he's 1-7-1 in fourballs in the RCup. Maybe pair him with Fowler in foursomes in the afternoon.

[Phil McDade]

I would not disagree with a Mickelson/Mahan pairing but I have heard alot of people mention Mickelson and Dustin Johnson together.  Also I think Fowler and Bubba Watson is a natural pairing even if both are rookies.  Fowler may be able to play well in either fourball or foresomes as he is second in GIR this year to only Kuchar.  I agree sitting Kuchar over Mahan probably makes sense in the opening session.

I would feel much better about pairing Woods with Stricker in foursomes than putting Mickelson in foursomes with anybody right now based upon how he is playing and not knowing how much of an impact playing 36 holes a day could have on his medical condition.

Overton is fidgitty (sp?) anyways it will be interesting to see how he responds in the Ryder Cup.

One of the more interesting strategies is whether you pair a rookie with a vet, or just send off two rookies together. Euro has had some success with the latter strategy, but Zinger was willing to put out Holmes and Weekley twice in fourballs, and they came away with 1-1/2 points. I agree Fowler would be an asset in either format -- he reminds me a lot of Sergio circa 1999, when he surprised everyone with his solid play at the RC in Brookline, at the age of 19. I think Overton of all the rookies is the one I'd pair with a veteran.

[Dan_Callahan]

As an aside, is it possible for anyone to be paired with Furyk and not be driven to the brink of insanity by his asinine pre-shot routine?

[Phil McDade]

As an aside, is it possible for anyone to be paired with Furyk and not be driven to the brink of insanity by his asinine pre-shot routine?

Good point! He's 4-12-2 all-time in team matches, one of the lousier records of anyone who's played in the RC. But he's 4-1-1 in singles --maybe it works against his Euro opponents.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Fowler's pick is a gut choice by Pavin. No other way to explain it.

No wins on tour yet and the last top ten was some time ago.

Held against the likes of Sean O'Hair or Nick Watney I am dumbfounded with the choice.

It would be one thing if Fowler had won on tour or been a prime factor in any of the majors.

Beyond the fanfare he creates -- more tied to his clothers then anything else -- I see the choice as particularly baffling.

[George Pazin]

Tim:

James stupidly sat three players until singles play at Brookline in '99, virtually assuring the US could easily make up three of its four-point overnight deficit because those three players -- Vande Velde, Coltart, and Sandelin -- would be intimidated by the rowdy crowds and unfamiliar with the course. And he sent them out among his first six players, assuring the US of building momentum.

Strange stupidly sat his four best players on singles play until the very end in 2002, giving Euro a chance to build momentum early in front of a home crowd when the overnight score was tied. US loss.

Sutton stupidly paired two guys who can't stand each other (Woods and Mickelson) -- twice! in the same day! -- in 2004, giving Euro two victories and a huge psychological boost on its way to a 6-1/2-1-1/2 first-day lead, which essentially ended the Cup.

But don't you think you are evaluating simply based on what happened?

I agree 100% with Tim Martin - the winner is always called a genius, the loser a dummy, when in reality, team match play at the pro level is such a crap shoot that the Captain really his very little to do with the outcome. Sure, he can make questionable calls, but it is not even remotely comparable to the head coach of Indy trying to figure out how to keep Peyton alive when Coach Lebeau's guys are comin'.

Zinger's strategy of putting similar personality types together is mildly interesting, but does anyone think Seve and Ollie are similar in almost any way other than nationality? Well, they're both great putters, but that doesn't have anything to do with personality.

Sergio wins with just about anyone - yet struggles in singles. How would a Captain affect that?

[Phil McDade]

Tim:

James stupidly sat three players until singles play at Brookline in '99, virtually assuring the US could easily make up three of its four-point overnight deficit because those three players -- Vande Velde, Coltart, and Sandelin -- would be intimidated by the rowdy crowds and unfamiliar with the course. And he sent them out among his first six players, assuring the US of building momentum.

Strange stupidly sat his four best players on singles play until the very end in 2002, giving Euro a chance to build momentum early in front of a home crowd when the overnight score was tied. US loss.

Sutton stupidly paired two guys who can't stand each other (Woods and Mickelson) -- twice! in the same day! -- in 2004, giving Euro two victories and a huge psychological boost on its way to a 6-1/2-1-1/2 first-day lead, which essentially ended the Cup.

But don't you think you are evaluating simply based on what happened?

I agree 100% with Tim Martin - the winner is always called a genius, the loser a dummy, when in reality, team match play at the pro level is such a crap shoot that the Captain really his very little to do with the outcome. Sure, he can make questionable calls, but it is not even remotely comparable to the head coach of Indy trying to figure out how to keep Peyton alive when Coach Lebeau's guys are comin'.

Zinger's strategy of putting similar personality types together is mildly interesting, but does anyone think Seve and Ollie are similar in almost any way other than nationality? Well, they're both great putters, but that doesn't have anything to do with personality.

Sergio wins with just about anyone - yet struggles in singles. How would a Captain affect that?

George:

Well, at least Indy's coach knows what he's going to get out his quarterback the first four games of the season, as opposed to a certain western Pa. football coach.

Without going too far off the path, I think in the past 25 years or so, we've seen the emergence of the cult of coaches, where sports fans attribute the success of teams to the "genius" of all-knowing coaches who pull just the right strings at just the right moment. Phil Jackson has coached 11 teams to NBA titles; is he a coaching genius, or did he have the good fortune of having two of the best players -- ever -- on those teams? I think the latter. Is Bill Belichick that much smarter than other coaches, or did New England win those Super Bowls because it had the best defense in the league and someone in the organization had the good sense to draft Tom Brady?

I don't think a captain's strategy in the Ryder Cup is the be-all and end-all of the competition; he never hits a shot, of course. But line-ups and pairings matter, no less in the Ryder Cup than they do in football or basketball. All three of the decisions I cited were criticized at the time, prior to play, by a number of golf writers and commentators.

[Tim Martin]

Well, at least Indy's coach knows what he's going to get out his quarterback the first four games of the season, as opposed to a certain western Pa. football coach.

Without going too far off the path, I think in the past 25 years or so, we've seen the emergence of the cult of coaches, where sports fans attribute the success of teams to the "genius" of all-knowing coaches who pull just the right strings at just the right moment. Phil Jackson has coached 11 teams to NBA titles; is he a coaching genius, or did he have the good fortune of having two of the best players -- ever -- on those teams? I think the latter. Is Bill Belichick that much smarter than other coaches, or did New England win those Super Bowls because it had the best defense in the league and someone in the organization had the good sense to draft Tom Brady?

I don't think a captain's strategy in the Ryder Cup is the be-all and end-all of the competition; he never hits a shot, of course. But line-ups and pairings matter, no less in the Ryder Cup than they do in football or basketball. All three of the decisions I cited were criticized at the time, prior to play, by a number of golf writers and commentators.

Phil-Football has designated positions on both offense and defense with different roles depending on the other team`s formations, personnel and time left. Basketball has the same issues with fewer players and positions. Ryder Cup captains decide only line-ups and pairings and have zero effect once the match begins. As a long time NY Giant fan I think most people including Bill Parcels will give Bill Belichick a little credit for the the success of the defense in the organization`s first two Super Bowl winning seasons. You can write it all off to luck but Phil Jackson and Bill Belichick have 16 Championships between them. Your cited examples of "bad captaining" seem to imply that they should have known better. These guys are searching for a winning formula. On paper who doesn`t think that Woods and Mickelson as partners should have run the table?

[JNC Lyon]

Gents, Kuchar is the best player on the US team right now, without a question.  You could pair him with just about anyone in any format and he would dominate.  Pavin would be nuts to sit him in any match.  I like the Woods/Stricker pairing as well.

[George Pazin]

... But line-ups and pairings matter, no less in the Ryder Cup than they do in football or basketball.

I think we've reached agree to disagree status.

Everybody now:

O ver RATE ted - duh duh duh duh duh! O ver RATE ted - duh duh duh duh duh!

 

In some seriousness, I will say that the difference in lineups is that there is a gigantic dropoff from Manning to whoever his backup is (similar to Ben to Leftwich Dixon). Anyone who sees a tremendous dropoff from one to another in this format is seeing things I don't see. And that's only lineups, not even allowing for the fact that you have defense in football!

There may well be a cult of coaches in other sports, but that doesn't mean it isn't deserved...

[Phil McDade]

"In some seriousness, I will say that the difference in lineups is that there is a gigantic dropoff from Manning to whoever his backup is (similar to Ben to Leftwich Dixon). Anyone who sees a tremendous dropoff from one to another in this format is seeing things I don't see."

George:

This proves my point! The ease in which coaches make out line-ups in football makes such decisions a minor part of their responsibilities. Yes, they have other major responsibilities, although every play they call ends up in the hands of the players they choose to put out there -- in football, a relatively easy decision.

In RCup, who'd you put out first -- Tiger, the alleged #1 player in the world, or Kuchar, who's playing as consistently well as anyone in golf these days? Tiger has lots of RCup experience, much of it bad. Kuchar -- none. Are you suggesting that's a decision as easy to make as whether to put out Manning or his backup? It's much harder....

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