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Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Course Review of Ballyhack
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2010, 07:45:17 PM »
Basically, they only moved 250,000 cy of earth, and most of that was to build the irrigation pond and a couple of landing areas on 9 and 12.  Everything else was as they found it.  The key was in the routing.  Lester told me that he did only one routing plan for Kinloch, but he did 20 for Ballyhack.  They routed right into the teeth of the most interesting natural features, and that's why its so dramatic.

By the way, your Ballyneal flyover was cool!

« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 07:57:59 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Course Review of Ballyhack
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2010, 12:07:01 AM »
It's interesting that Mr. Flemma states that #11 is the only hole he doesn't like, as I reacted similarly when I drove it (by that I mean, we arrived on a Sunday evening and my two companions played the back nine while I took a cart and photographed the entire 18.)  When I played it the next day, I parred it from the way-backs but still wondered what the proper play was off the tee.  There exists an optimal landing area up the right side, but it's not the ideal angle into the green, as a shot hit in will run with the slope and skid to the back at best.  The ideal, against-the-slope approach is more obscured and comes in from the left.  Ultimately, it's a major risk with a driver when played from the proper tees, but a manageable green for access when played with a fairway club and a mid-iron in.  What you do with your putter is another story.

I stated in a prior thread that I found the right sliver of fairway on #4 to be marginal or accidental at best.  When I read that they wanted to fill in the fronting portion of Saul's Run, I thought, my that would ruin the hole.  I still think that the splitting fairway bunker could be a bit more to the left, but that's just opinion.  Since #3 is not a museum piece on a replica course, it makes complete sense that Ricky Bobby Lester George would stamp the hole with his thumbprint; it's not nearly as treacherous to putt from as it appears visually.

I will add to the #6 discussion the following:  the fairway bunker up toward the green on the right is detrimental.  With the marsh on the left, the only space for a miss with the driver is high right, just where the bunker is.  The hole is the ultimate seductress; you might pull off the driver play one time in ten, so don't even bother.  Here's the kicker, though...make sure you take ENOUGH club to get to the fairway.  You have to carry it well enough to get over the trees that front the short fairway.  It's wide enough and soft enough, so don't get cute with your lay up off the tee.

On #15, the short porch is not visible from the tee and there are no road signs to direct you to it.  It played very firm the days we were there, so one needs the most finely judged shot from the back-yonders to reach the porch.  Truth be told, it benefits the shorter hitter, playing from the up tees, more than the player.  The player will bash driver left of the bunker, then hit toward the green on #2.  The shorter driver hits hybrid from the up tees to the porch, then hits another hybrid over the gunge, onto the fairway.  Lester George has essentially designed two holes in one on this unique parcel.

Last and least important, but necessary to mention, I take no umbrage nor claim any calumny with Mr. Flemma's mention of his professional articles.  If Jaime Diaz or Geoff Shackleford participated regularly, would you begrudge them the occasional turn signal toward their work?  It may or not be public knowledge that Mr. Flemma and I have locked antlers in this lifetime, perhaps offering me some justification in joining others in criticizing his tactic.  Simply, I cannot.  I'm glad that he alerts us to his work and I enjoyed his piece on Ballyhack.  No doubt, he and I will clash in the future, but that's the nature of this beast.  Ultimately, while some words may be hastily and unwisely chosen, the passion of the members of this clique are what drive the discussion group toward greatness (someone let me know when we arrive at that station!)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 12:11:57 AM by Ronald Tricks O'Hooligan Montesano »
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Course Review of Ballyhack
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2010, 12:34:13 AM »
     
Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Ballyhack Golf Club   Roanoke   VA

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
BALLYHACK   74.0   153   36.6   37.4   102.9   M
BIG LICK           76.6   155   37.9   38.7   107.1   M
RIDGE           71.2   146   35.3   35.9   98.2     M
STAR                   69.0   139   34.1   34.9   94.8     M
VALLEY           72.3   134   35.8   36.5   103.9   W
STAR                   74.9   147   37.0   37.9   109.5   W
RIDGE           77.5   153   38.1   39.4   113.5   W

So why would I want to play there if they are practically guaranteeing I'll shoot over 100?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Course Review of Ballyhack
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2010, 12:36:58 AM »
Garland,

You can't walk it so you wouldn't want to play there anyways :)

Amused with your GHIN discovery - it is providing much interest this evening.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Course Review of Ballyhack
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2010, 12:38:41 AM »
Clearly Moran is a better architect, because he has me thinking I might break 80.

Course Rating Search Results

Club/Course Name   City   State
Lederach Golf Club   Harleysville   PA

Tee Name   USGA Course Rating (18)   Slope Rating (18)   Front   Back   Bogey Rating (18)   Gender
Black           73.9   137   36.3   37.7   99.3   M
Blue           71.8   134   35.2   36.5   96.7   M
Green   69.8   131   33.9   35.9   94.1   M
White   64.3   110   30.9   33.5   84.8   M
Gold           59.1   100   28.8   30.4   77.6   M
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Course Review of Ballyhack
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2010, 12:42:39 AM »
Basically, they only moved 250,000 cy of earth, and most of that was to build the irrigation pond and a couple of landing areas on 9 and 12.  Everything else was as they found it.  

Jay,

Didn't they also do quite a bit of cut/fill work on 18?  I recall reading on here that the land there at 18, the corridor, was originally much more severe down the center.

It's a good piece, Jay - I enjoyed reading it.  I also think it's time I take a golf trip over to my neighboring state, based on how much you seemed to enjoy your stay there.  Must be a nice change from dreary old Manhattan.

Will Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Course Review of Ballyhack
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2010, 09:24:39 AM »
Jay,

Maybe Lester can answer this better than you, but it seems to me that there was a lot more dirt moved than that. They may have picked up 250,000 cy, but they certainly pushed a lot more to make landing areas, tee, greens (the front half of the seventeenth is all fill).

And of course, there is nothing wrong with that. The important thing is the end result. I am sure that doing many iterations of the routing was essential in creating the best course possible, but it doesn't make it minimalist. I don't think the site lent itself too much to that type of design.

- Will

Jimmy Chandler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Course Review of Ballyhack
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2010, 04:35:51 PM »
So why would I want to play there if they are practically guaranteeing I'll shoot over 100?

Garland --

I was lucky enough to play Ballyhack in April, and I didn't break 100, with the caveat that the greens had been aerated recently and the wind howled. I still had a blast -- it's a wonderful golf course. Easily the most fun I've ever had playing a difficult course.

It's definitely nest played as match play. The greens are so much fun, and the options are many. The only reason it's not the best golf course I've played this year is because I also got to visit Ballyneal.

Jimmy

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Course Review of Ballyhack
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2010, 07:31:54 PM »
Cybergolf ran my review here:

http://www.cybergolf.com/golf_news/simple_twist_of_fate_brings_ballyhack_golf_club_to_life

Remember - this is not just for architecture junkies!  It's for everyone, from architecture experts to "looky-loos," from sharp minds to people who still think it's "George Lester," so please keep that in mind.

Also, I'll have discussion on my website with a lot more pix and discussion:

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=3118

Enjoy.

It's laughable that on a website dedicated to "frank discussion of GCA" that someone would be criticized for posting a review/article involving a golf course architect, or architects-especially if it was their own.

But now that Wie has another win, I guess we're stuck talking architecture.....

By the way, what's a minimalist?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Course Review of Ballyhack
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2010, 08:42:51 PM »
Garland, give it a try for one round.  You will at least want to see it once.  Some of the holes are that unique and that outstanding.  You really won't want to have missed this one.  It doesn't have to be your favorite course, and no one will ask you to completely rethink your opinions on GCA...if you hate it, and don't ever want to come back, fine.  But I think you'd be excited to see some really great old school golf holes there.

If you miss out on the chance to play Ballyhack, it's - as we say in the concert business - "you snooze, you lose." ;D

Will, Jonathan Ireland confirmed the 250K figure for me.  I'll have to defer to LG about whether they did any work in the 18th fairway.

Ron raises an interesting point about the right half of the 4th fairway.  it LOOKS as though it might be a bit small and that balls may only end up there "accidentally," but I think that Les and team carefully worked out the containment and shaping of the hole that it holds better than it looks for its size.  but your eye did catch that subtle point, which is good, I just think we need more data about drives down that side before we can say it might not be too big.  For the record, my drive hit that slot just fine, and I'm only a marginal player, but maybe I got lucky too:)

I do have to disagree with Ron about 15...I have pic from the middle tee that shows that you can see a little of the short porch.  Also, apparently, the good players do go for the short porch.  LG told me a story about how he and Vinny G and Head Pro Jonathan Ireland all battle it out with each other when they get to 15.  It definitely adds interest!
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 08:52:21 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Jay Kirkpatrick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Course Review of Ballyhack
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2010, 10:54:31 PM »
i guess i'll add to the discussion here since i played the course about 8 weeks ago.  first and foremost, i consider it probably the best modern golf course i've played.

while i understand garland's reservations about playing it due to its assumed difficulty, i have to agree with the person that said it was the most fun "hard" golf course they'd ever played.  i'm a +1 and i didnt' break 80 in each of my two rounds from the tips.  it wasn't b/c the course was overly difficult, penal, or unfair.  i just didn't execute the shots that the course called for.  i hit over 2/3rds of the greens, but couldn't make a putt.  simple as that.  my playing companion, a siimilar talent (or lack), shot 74 -- hitting 75% of the greeens.

there is more than enough room to hit it, and plenty of options on most holes.  i even hit it off the reservation several times and still had the ability to get back in the game.

i agree with the consensus here on #11.  it is by far the worst hole on the course in my opinion.  its a connector hole that doesn't fit the character of the rest of the holes. nobody's perfect though.

i disagree with jay's judgment of #6.  i thought it was an excellent short par 4... not another version of a common hole.

finally, i don't understand how some of you can give jay a hard time for linking the article.  isn't that what this site is here for?

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