What does Crenshaw do on the C&C courses?

[Jim Nugent]

I've been leading the charge, trying to learn what Jack does on the Nicklaus courses.  Now I have a similar question about Ben Crenshaw. 

I've read that Coore does the routings.  Coore spends months on site, poring over endless details.   

So what does Crenshaw do?  I'm pretty sure he's more than a figurehead, whose name helps bring in the business.  Interested to learn exactly what his role is, at the courses C&C design.  For example, what is he doing at the new C&C course at Barnbougle?         

[Andy Gray]

Jim,

I read somewhere that Ben will only work on courses inside the US (because of his family?), so I'm quite sure he had little to do with Lost Farm. Apart from that I'm not sure what his capacity is when the team is designing a new course.

Cheers,

Andy

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

I hear what you are asking but I find that partnerships likely split up different tasks anyway.

No doubt Bill Coore is the on-scene guy and I was told when I played Clear Creek recently what he was doing when there. It's quite laborious the time he provided but the details for such work are needed.

Does Ben do much of that? Frankly, how much do many of the PGA Tour stars provide when courses are being designed? It's a question that when answered will likely vary from player to player.

[Tom_Doak]

From what I've heard, Ben generally goes out and visits their sites 4-5 days at a time ... about the same length as my own site visits these days.

Throughout the process, he is Bill's sounding board for different ideas, i.e., do you think these two holes would be better or those two?  What about a bunker there?  And of course he sometimes suggests stuff of his own ... but it's suggesting, not commanding.  He respects Bill beyond words and he respects their crew a great deal, too, and he doesn't ever want to "pull rank" on them.  But he does have a lot of input, especially around the greens.

My impression is that Austin Golf Club is mostly Ben's design.  Bill told me since it was a place Ben would be spending so much time, he thought Ben ought to make most of the decisions there.  And when Ben showed me and my son around the course a couple of years ago, he did ask me more questions about specific holes and what I might have done than he usually does.

[Bill_McBride]

From what I've heard, Ben generally goes out and visits their sites 4-5 days at a time ... about the same length as my own site visits these days.

Throughout the process, he is Bill's sounding board for different ideas, i.e., do you think these two holes would be better or those two?  What about a bunker there?  And of course he sometimes suggests stuff of his own ... but it's suggesting, not commanding.  He respects Bill beyond words and he respects their crew a great deal, too, and he doesn't ever want to "pull rank" on them.  But he does have a lot of input, especially around the greens.

My impression is that Austin Golf Club is mostly Ben's design.  Bill told me since it was a place Ben would be spending so much time, he thought Ben ought to make most of the decisions there.  And when Ben showed me and my son around the course a couple of years ago, he did ask me more questions about specific holes and what I might have done than he usually does.

I played Austin Golf Club last year, in October I think, and Ben was out there beating balls on the range.  We rode by on the way to a look at the short course; he was gone when we came back and walked down to the first tee.  My member host says he pretty much lives out there during the day.  Nice place for that!

[Tom_Doak]

Bill:

When we were driving out to Austin GC, I asked Ben how often he goes out there when he's home [it's a sold half hour from his house].  He responded enthusiastically, "Every day."  I wish I had a place like that for myself.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:

When we were driving out to Austin GC, I asked Ben how often he goes out there when he's home [it's a sold half hour from his house].  He responded enthusiastically, "Every day."  I wish I had a place like that for myself.

Everything there is very low key, clubhouse, course, staff, members.  It would be idyllic.

Of course Crystal Downs ain't bad either!

[RJ_Daley]

Bill:

When we were driving out to Austin GC, I asked Ben how often he goes out there when he's home [it's a sold half hour from his house].  He responded enthusiastically, "Every day."  I wish I had a place like that for myself.

Wow TD, it must take you more than a half hour to trek on out to CD, albeit, it isn't your design... But, then again, didn't you have one of your own mere minutes from your home in High Pointe?  Not that you are home all that much to go out there and practice 'everyday'.   

[Tom_Doak]

RJ, Crystal Downs is nearly an hour from my house.  It's tough to get over there too often.

I moved a bit closer to High Pointe just before it closed.  At one time I went there often, but it got hard to watch after a while.  If I could get it back open I wouldngo a lot more.

[RJ_Daley]

Tom it continues to be a mystery to me why you haven't moved your operations, home and biz to a location near one of your most acclaimed courses.  But, then one begins to realize that none of your courses (that I can think of) are near any major airports and urban centers.  Yikes!!!  But, then I think we'd not hear from you as often, as I am thinking you spend a lot of time in connection wi-fied airport lounges killing time posting with the likes of us! 

But, back to the thread question, is there "any" current pro (not that you'd have to name them to answer the question) but one that you'd envision yourself collaboratiing with, like Ben does with Bill?

[Mike_Young]

I can tell you one thing he does....
Without sounding smartass as to his contribution..

..he brings the project....

and that is in no way a refelction on Bill Coore...

[Tom_Doak]

Tom it continues to be a mystery to me why you haven't moved your operations, home and biz to a location near one of your most acclaimed courses.  But, then one begins to realize that none of your courses (that I can think of) are near any major airports and urban centers.  Yikes!!!  But, then I think we'd not hear from you as often, as I am thinking you spend a lot of time in connection wi-fied airport lounges killing time posting with the likes of us! 

But, back to the thread question, is there "any" current pro (not that you'd have to name them to answer the question) but one that you'd envision yourself collaboratiing with, like Ben does with Bill?

RJ:  I've worked in the past with Michael Clayton on a couple of courses, and we hope to do another shortly.  And there are lots of pros I would consider working with for a single project.  But, I have invested a lot of time and effort into building my own company, and I doubt there is anyone I would want to bring in as an equal partner.  Bill and Ben started that way, I didn't.

[RJ_Daley]

Also not to be a smart ass, but practically speaking, given the particular current state of the economy and how that bodes for GCA and a talented young archie, I could see said talented archie wishing to have the capital and name recognition an interested pro might add, but who hasn't had many projects to make money, or build up an office infrastructure, and marketting effort, due to the costs.  So, partnering with a tour pro that is interested in GCA, yet hasn't the time to put into truly learn the craft from building to engineering concepts could be quite practical. 

I would think there are a few pros, sitting around sketching hole designs on bar napkins that might like to partner with a good archie, where they might have some $$$ and the archie has talent but just not $$$$, so much... 

[Colin Macqueen]

Apropos Mike Clayton I am sure that I read somewhere recently that Mike Clayton was going to join forces with Geoff Ogilvy in regards to golf course design. Anybody out there who can verify this?

Colin

[Tom_Doak]

Colin:

That's right, Mike Clayton has formed a new company with Geoff Ogilvy.  I had dinner with the two of them years ago in Melbourne, before Geoff had won his U.S. Open; Geoff's parents were actually members at St. Andrews Beach.  They seemed to be very much on the same page.

Not sure whether Geoff will be involved in the project Mike and I are doing together, or not ... that's really up to the client I suppose.  I would be glad to have him out and see what he thinks of what we are doing, assuming we ever get it going.

[Tommy Williamsen]

When I played Colorado Golf Club my caddy pointed to a green side bunker and said that one night he was cleaning up on the course and saw Ben Crenshaw reshaping the bunker.

[Pat Burke]

But, back to the thread question, is there "any" current pro (not that you'd have to name them to answer the question) but one that you'd envision yourself collaboratiing with, like Ben does with Bill?
[/quote]


RJ:  I've worked in the past with Michael Clayton on a couple of courses, and we hope to do another shortly.  And there are lots of pros I would consider working with for a single project.  But, I have invested a lot of time and effort into building my own company, and I doubt there is anyone I would want to bring in as an equal partner.  Bill and Ben started that way, I didn't.
[/quote]

Tom,
What about a "former player, that worked on greens crews before playing, was a foreman/asst for 6 years and loves architecture?  Would you consider working with him?!?!

[RJ_Daley]

While not a highly recognisable pro player, Forrest Fezler comes to mind as a fellow that could trade in his tour bag for a seat on a dozer or backhoe and one who picks up the architectural side of golf.  I'm sure there are others...  and those that would like to get into this as a side line or extension of their careers. 

[James Duncan]

The key for us is getting Ben on the site at the right times, usually when the holes are taking shape and during final shaping and finishing. For him to spend the time Bill does on the initial layout is simply unrealistic. We'll spend weeks spread over multiple site visits just wrapping our arms around the property. Besides, Bill's not exactly the worst hand you could assign to this task.

Once there's something in place that can be edited it's a good time for a site visit. The type of input we get ranges from broad commentary on the potential style of the course to specific thoughts on hole types and features. Depending on the location of the project we may have just one of these types of visits (China, for example), or as many as half a dozen.

The second opportunity, generally speaking, is during finishing -- after the onslaught of drainage and irrigation installation has been completed on a section of holes. This type of visit really emphasizes the player's perspective. Can this pin have a little more support? Might we fill that bunker a touch? Shall we provide a little more room over there?

And yes, we'll get into the nitty-gritty of grading and finishing on occasion. At Austin Golf Club we finally had to break down and buy Ben a pair of gloves. It was the year of his Ryder Cup captaincy, and his putting stroke wasn't likely benefiting much from the calluses that were increasingly evident from shoveling and raking bunkers...

JD

 

[Kris Shreiner]

James,

A warm welcome to GCA! Thanks for the insights. It's always nice to be able to appreciate how much detail really goes into creating  the types of projects your gang produces. Judging from the amount of time he spends at Austin C.C., it's obvious Ben has a deep affinity for the place.

Cheers,
 Kris

[mike_beene]

a few years ago Crenshaw did an appearance for my company(he went above and beyond to talk to each person for several hours).After the event was over we discussed my club which they have renovated.He knew every hole and discussed why they put fairway bunkers where they did and why they lengthened some holes but not others and details of the resloping of some of the greens.He couldn't have faked this much detail and clearly was very involved in what was going on.