[Matt_Ward]

Had the opportunity play Clear Creek the other day and prior ro that I had played Martis Camp the week prior. They are both incredibly solid and fun courses to play. Tom Fazio deserves plenty of credit for a layout that doesn't suffer fools -- especially from the tips. Driving the ball -- both long, straight and in the correct position is essential.

Clear Creek is a big time home run for C&C. They seems to have peaked with earlier creations in Sand Hills and Friar's head (my opiniosn at least) -- but they have simply provided for a layout that is so utterly melded to its stunnming landscape -- just being outsicde the Humboldt Taiyope National Forest. As good as people see Bandon Trails, Hidden Creek, and a host of others -- Clear Creek is miles beyond them in my mind.

When you exit from US Hwy 50 and make your winding journey to the club's entrance you leave all of the rest of the world behind you. The soul of Clear Creelk comes from allowing the land and the naturalness to excel.

Hard for me to say what course is better -- I'll need a few days to think that one through.

Suffice to say for now, Clear Creek emphasizes what C&C do so well -- allowing the land to tell the story and making sure the golf design works within that domain -- not outside of it. If there's any real weakness design wise with Martis Camp it's the penchant for Team Fazio to always believe that they need to a"add" something more to what the land gives. Cazse in point -- the bunkers themselves and how they are placed and presented. Ditto for the sheer imagination that Bill Coore added with the varying green shapes, contours and dimensions at Clear Creek. Make no mistake about it both of these courses will have their ardent supporters and I really enjoyed both of them. They have added so much a category of courses (high sierrra golf / alpine) that has been lacking -- until now.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

I think these are the fourth and fifth new courses you have reviewed on your western swing, and every single one of them has been a tour de force home run that is among the best work the architect of the day has ever done.

Have you been taking happy pills or something?

Since all of them are so good, how do they rank:

Wine Valley
Old Macdonald
Martis Camp
Clear Creek
[and I think there was one other I've forgotten already]

[Michael Dugger]

He played something in the Bend area with soggy turf....but it wasn't Tetherow...

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It is hard to say this but martis camp I am not sold on clear creek being more than very good I think  is top 2 or 3 fazio and clear creek is not even close to top 5 cc

[Matt_Ward]

Tiger:

Not even close to your top five for C&C. Please outline your top five C&C and how they excel beyond Clear Creek. Love to hear your analysis in detail.

Tom:

"Happy pills."

Really?

I make it a point to play courses that are clearly beyond the pale in many cases -- I did play a number of courses during my recent western trek that were far less than expected. I have not opined on them thus far. You may have misse my comments on a particular facility in the Bend area (which I did not name thus far) that was overwatered to the max -- ditto a number of other courses I also played in the greater Reno / Tahoe area.

Have you played the courses I have mentioned? Be interested in your take if you have and how my thoughts are so disconnected from what they provide.

I have commented on previous C&C courses I have played and I have not found all of them through the prism of "happy pills"

Let me point out that I have played more than my share of TF courses -- 75 plus -- and I see Martis Camp at the very near top of that listing. It is a bit overly shaped (with the bunkers) as I opined previously but the sum of all its parts works in an exceptional manner.

Clear Creek is one of the best C&C courses I have played. I have played my share and I see it beyond the likes of Bandon Trails and Hidden Crreek, to name just two other C&C courses. WV works from a public course perspective golf option. It was done on a far less budget and it provides a really stellar golf option for the masses to play. Old Macdonald is in my mind the best of the courses at Bandon Dunes -- again, my opinion and I have posted some details on the "why" and "how" o another thread.

Tom, I don't make my visits generally to play dogs or those with major amountt of fleas. I also think it's not fair to simply find holes in courses that don't have many at all that are worth noting.

[Joel_Stewart]

Let me point out that I have played more than my share of TF courses -- 75 plus -- and I see Martis Camp at the very near top of that listing. It is a bit overly shaped (with the bunkers) as I opined previously but the sum of all its parts works in an exceptional manner.

I agree that Martis Camp is one of Fazio's best although I haven't played 75 of them.  They actually have softened up the course slightly since the opening but as a hole the bunkers are far to deep and penal.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Matt,
Have you ever used the search function on GCA?
There are tons of threads similar to your recent posts.
Glad you are getting around.
Cheers

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I understand that but when you travel as much as I do I may not have enough time to provide totally fresh and creative ways to say similar things. I do admit that and clearly will pay more attention to that in the future. Thanks for mentioning.

By the way Joel raises a good point -- the bunkers are quite deep and penal at MC -- but the real issue for me there was how they stood out and apart from the actual land itself. At Clear Creek that wasn't the case.

[Joel_Stewart]

By the way Joel raises a good point -- the bunkers are quite deep and penal at MC -- but the real issue for me there was how they stood out and apart from the actual land itself. At Clear Creek that wasn't the case.

Clear Creek is situated on a vein of sand which is what Bill Coore treasures.  As an example, the greens are push up which in this day and age is fairly unusual.

Martis Camp which is about 45 minutes away is pure clay or rock.  Not sure whose idea it was to put in the ragged edge bunkers and I guess I agree they really stood out, mainly by being pure white but I thought they look great, breaking up all the different shades of green.

[Matt_Ward]

One of the more interesting holes at Clear Creek is the 3rd -- the hole plunges from an extreme elevated tee -- it looks like Dante's infernal abyss is staring at you as you stand on the back tee. The views from that vantage point are simply mesmerizing. C&C had plenty of decisions to make with such a hole. The stated length is roughly 510 yards and the hole dog-legs right with huge ponderosa pines blocking the right section of the hole -- players can hit over them but the landing area then turns hard right and many balls can easily still bounce left because of the slope of the fairway. Hit too far left and the tee shot can quickly run out of room and find the rough / sage brush on the far side.

Players have to decide on the tee just how aggressive you play. The safest play is for something that can reach the corner of the dog-leg leaving roughly 200 yards to the green which sits even further below then the fairway. One can run-up the approach if desired and the contours of the putting surface -- although not as pronounced as others at the course, requires careful thought nonetheless.

If one takes driver then you must fade over the high top trees on the right and simply hope the ball can land without too much bounce. Those who can do this will have anywhere from 160 to as little as 120 yards from the target. Those who hit it even longer than what I mentioned have a small creek that cuts across the fairway at roughly 110 yards from the hole.

Credit C&C for devising a hole that is clearly unique from what I have seen them create in others designs -- the 3rd at Clear Creek leaves an impression that is trule as grand as the scenery and vistas it provides.

[Derek Dirksen]

C&C were not the first to route a course on the property at Clear Creek.  I know that RTJ II did one as well, atleast a year or two  before C&C did theres.  Does anyone here know the difference in the routing.  Not exactly sure if any other architects did a routing as well.   I would be very curious to see the difference.

[Matt_Ward]

Derek:

My understanding is that a few other architects recommended a number of specific holes that were taken to completion by C&C.

The 3rd, I believe, is one of them, albeit with slight personal modification they provided.

Gents:

What makes a downhill par-4a tough design is that the architect is trying to test different levels of players without providing one group with any real advantage -- especially the better / longer hitters. The par-4 3rd invites the big play -- in fact, the temptation is akin to the sirens enticing the sailors to venture near the menacing rocks. Those without mega length get treated with equal demands -- albeit without the need for the extremely long tee shot.

If a player decides to go for the big tee shot -- you need to work the ball properly with a fade or even a blocked push shot. Failure to do that can mean a big time score in a New York minute.

Making a long par-4 work in high altitude as in the case of Clear Creek is no small feat -- especially when it's a downhill hole. TF did a long par-4 of note at Martris Camp believe it'sthe 4th hole  -- but it's uphill and plays far longer than its posted 520 yards. Great contrast between such holes and how they can be played.

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