Pine Valley postcards

[Jason McNamara]

These are from their collection, presumably available at the clubhouse.  Picked these up at a garage sale.  I'd guess 20-30 years old, but as I say it's strictly a guess.  The yardages may serve as a clue.  Perhaps some who have more recent pics may find them useful for compare and contrast purposes.

#1:  415-427 yds.       #2:  348-367       #3:  172-185

[Jason McNamara]

#4:  446-461 yds.       #5:  217-226       #6:  372-391

[Jason McNamara]

#7:  550-585 yds.       #8:  314-327       #9:  416-432

[Jason McNamara]

#10:  130-145 yds.       #11:  389-399       #12:  330-382

[Jason McNamara]

#13:  439-446 yds.       #14:  167-185       #15:  573-603

[Jason McNamara]

#16:  422-436 yds.       #17:  332-344       #18:  410-424

[Rick Sides]

Jason,
Great find at a garage sale.  The postcards date back to the mid 70's.  I think they actually may have come out around the same time as John Arthur Brown's Pine Valley history book, or they may have been included with the book.  I have sometimes sen them both for sale together.

[Mark McKeever]

I have a set of these too that are framed!  I think its neat how the green on 10 is cut right into the DA!

Mark

[Kevin Pallier]

Jason - I'll post some more recent one's for comparison

OLD
#1:  415-427 yds.       #2:  348-367       #3:  172-185

CURRENT
1-3

[Jim Eder]

Terrific, great find!!!

[Andy Gray]

It's great to see the comparisons between the old and the new, what a great set of postcards. Also, the second looks awesome with a wider corridor and less trees behind the green.

[Mark McKeever]

I also think its neat how wide open the whole right side of 17 is!  It's like there was an alternate fairway there or something! 

Mark

[Tyler Kearns]

#7:  550-585 yds.       #8:  314-327       #9:  416-432

Jason,

As to the date of these postcards, they pre-date the addition of the alternate green on #8, which cannot be seen in the postcard. I'm not sure when it was constructed.

TK

[TEPaul]

Tyler:

The right green on #8 was added in 1987.

[Jason McNamara]

Thanks for all the great feedback, esp. to Kevin for the comparison shots.  I am not sure how I feel about what look like new trees on #2, but it is a shorter hole, so maybe.  Still, it seems out of character in any event.

And one clarification:  it was actually a going-out-of-business sale at a golf store, and the owner had some miscellaneous items he was selling as well (incl. a signed Cornish & Whitten), but "garage sale" conveyed the idea well enough for the first post.  :-)

[TEPaul]

Mark:

When that postcard photo was taken of #17 the hole's alternate right fairway was actually long gone. The evolution of that particular iteraton nad evolution and its demise is a very interesting one.

[Mark McKeever]

Tom,

Care to do a quick briefing on the alternate fairway or is it a long story?

Mark

[Jeff_Mingay]

Those "little" trees on the sandy hillside, between tees and fairway, at #6 immediately jump out at me. Imagine if those were left there, to grow!

[Kevin Pallier]

OLD
#4:  446-461 yds.       #5:  217-226       #6:  372-391

CURRENT
4-6

Those "little" trees on the sandy hillside, between tees and fairway, at #6 immediately jump out at me. Imagine if those were left there, to grow!

Jeff - they do a pretty good job of maintaining them it seems from the more current pics

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Care to do a quick briefing on the alternate fairway or is it a long story?"


Mark:

Not really.

The original 17th green of Crump's was apparently too complex with some small and shallow (back to front) levels and was considered to not work very well in play. The same was felt about the 6th, 8th, 9th and 11th greens for various reasons (all were redesigned by Alison with the exception of the 8th by Maxwell. Alison did the right 9th and Maxwell eventually redesigned the original 9th) and of course the 18th with the famous "pimple" in it.

Alison offered a couple of design iteration drawings for a redesigned 17th green and he included the substantial waste area bunker leading up to the green as well as the alternate right fairway. He also included a fairly comprehensive "strategic concept" explanation with his redesign plan.

The green that was built appears to be some combination of Alison's two green iterations and it may've been constructed under Flynn's supervision (as Alison apparently couldn't be there for that).

The alternate fairway went out of play slowly apparently and the best reason I've heard was from 50 year greenkeeper Eb Steineger because the hoses didn't reach it well enough.

[Sean Leary]

I always assumed that the right 9th was newish, like the right 8th. What year?

[Mark McKeever]

Thanks for the explanation Tom!

Mark

[TEPaul]

"I always assumed that the right 9th was newish, like the right 8th. What year?"


SeanL:

Yes, the right 9th is newish and was done very close to the time the right 8th was done even though the right 9th was a Hugh Alison design apparently overseen in construction by William Flynn and George Thomas and the right 8th was done by Tom Fazio. The right 9th was done in 1921-22 and the right 8th in 1987. The right 10th which will be an interpretative iteration and in the same place as Crump's original 6th hole green plan on his initial routing should be done by 2012 or 2013. I've also heard discussion that they are thinking of doing a second green for #16 across the lake near the new back tee on #15 (making that hole a longer par 4 or short par 5). This one was another of Crump's ideas even though there seems to be some important research material extant somewhere that the crack researcher team known as "The 3M Searchers" (MacWood, Moriarty and Mucci) say they're aware of that "verifiably proves" this green idea was either HH Barker's or Macdonald's and Whigam's.