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Patrick_Mucci

Is benign neglect responsible for
« on: September 04, 2010, 07:59:05 AM »
more changes than conscious efforts ?

Is the lack of money often the foundation for ongoing changes to a golf course ?

Are we about to go through a period of substantive changes due to the crisis at local clubs ?

What will be the more prominent changes brought on by benign neglect or lack of funds ?

I've noticed that mowing patterns and frequencies have been changed at some clubs.
I've seen higher rough and narrower fairways (less area to maintain)
I've noticed that areas outside the playing corridors have been abandoned when it comes to maintaining them.

I've seen bunker maintainance diminish.

What other areas will be affected from a maintainance perspective ?

How will GCA be affected by the lack of funds ?

And lastly, will clubs, in an effort to retain existing members and attract new members, go through a modernization/renovation/restoration process ?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2010, 08:33:52 AM »
Pat,
I always thought more courses in the past were saved by lack of money than having money but now days you could be right.  Everything you mention there is true.  Our club assessed 6 million dollars and the vote out of 800 members passed by 9 votes.  The guys that pushed it maintain the pompous air and have no idea of the future budget and issues they have created. 

BUT...the biggest difference I see in clubs today and the old clubs when they had these issues in times past ....THE CLUB BOARDS....the old days had one or two guys that got it done whether right or wrong....now we just throw money at it because so many of the guys on the boards have never seen bad times...and they haven't spent the time that the older guys did regarding the same issues....the cockiness today far surpasses the ego of yesterday...IMHO..and that will hurt a lot of clubs...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2010, 08:35:06 AM »
Pat

Q; Is benign neglect responsible for more changes than conscious efforts ? 
A; GOOD QUESTION

Q; Is the lack of money often the foundation for ongoing changes to a golf course ?
A; YES – as suspect some plans where afoot but needed the push

Q; Are we about to go through a period of substantive changes due to the crisis at local clubs ?
A; NO – with tight budgets, expenditure will be carefully monitored 

Q; What will be the more prominent changes brought on by benign neglect or lack of funds
A; MORE NATURAL GOLF

Q; I've noticed that mowing patterns and frequencies have been changed at some clubs.
A; COMMON SENSE TO PREVAIL – Natural over manicured.

Q; I've seen higher rough and narrower fairways (less area to maintain)
A; GOOD – IT’s GOODNEWS WEEK AT LAST – think of the savings

Q; I've noticed that areas outside the playing corridors have been abandoned when it comes to maintaining them
A; AND WHY NOT – GOLF COURSES ARE MEANT TO REFLECT NATURE AND THE SURROUNDING COUNTRYSIDE – for too long we have wanted them to look like an extension to our back lawn.

Q; I've seen bunker maintainance diminish.
A; CAN’T BE A BAD MOVE – Hope for the game yet

Q; What other areas will be affected from a maintainance perspective ?
A; WATER; WATER; WATER

Q; How will GCA be affected by the lack of funds ?
A; BY GETTING BACK TO THE BASIC PRINCIPLES OF GCA

Q; And lastly, will clubs, in an effort to retain existing members and attract new members, go through a modernization/renovation/restoration process ?
A; HOPE NOT – JUST OFFER ALL GOLFERS A FEELING OF WELBEING BY BEING CLUB MEMBERS.

Melvyn


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2010, 08:53:59 AM »
Melvyn,

All valid points, but, I wonder, are narrower fairways good for golf and GCA ?

And, will 6 to 8 inch rough discourage people from playing golf   ?

Mike,

I think you've hit on an important issue.
The "older" generation knew hard times, they went through the depression and as such, seemed much more fiscally conservative.

I keep seeing, at clubs and colleges,....... expansion.
Raising the capital seems easy, but, it's the expanding ongoing operations budget that's the killer

Mike Sweeney

Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2010, 08:56:57 AM »
Pat,
I always thought more courses in the past were saved by lack of money than having money but now days you could be right.  Everything you mention there is true.  Our club assessed 6 million dollars and the vote out of 800 members passed by 9 votes.  

Over on the Maine thread, Mr Moore attributed the following to me:

"People talk about the way golf should be, but this is it right here. Great conditions at a low price, you walk the course, good pace of play, and a natural layout with some quirk."

What I really said was:

"Pat Mucci talks about the way golf should be, but this is it right here. Great conditions at a low price, you walk the course, good pace of play, and a natural layout with some quirk."  ;) Add in the Huckaby standard of being able to get a beer and a "good bowl of soup" after your round and you have perfection IMO.

It is much easier for the clubs of Maine to deal with a recession in the economy and the industry because they have never had any real money to start with. Yet the courses, mainly due to the heat in Southern New England and NY this year, were in the best shape that I saw all year.

We played with  someone who was working at rebuilding the bunkers at a club in Maine and it is basically a 2-3 year project for him and the club. I don't know what the budget is, but I know what it isn't. This is a Ross course that I have not played - too far up - but cost something like $1200 per year to join.

Okay, okay it is in Maine uplands, but remove the land, debt and taxes of many courses in the lower 47 from the budget, how many could produce the same condtions with a comparable budget?

Mike Young's course has a 12 month season so the numbers should be higher, but $6.0 mm in debt is crazy. The interest payment on the debt alone are probably the greens budgets at many clubs in Maine, and they all have very good Lobster Bisque for Huckaby!

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2010, 09:11:05 AM »
 8) 8) 8)


Pat, perhaps the rough won't be so high as there will be less fertilizing and water being used.  Cutting the rough really isn't that expensive it's the fine detail work that runss up maintenance costs.....and of course the cost of chemicals

Bunkers in my mind have been way overdone in terms of maintenance, and the perception they should be perfect is the bane of many course owners/ managers/ superintendents. I'm all for raggedy bunkers with less sand , which encourages good course management by the player...or skill in extrication.  Also, a little luck isn't so bad in this game , as good lies and bad lies test the players resolve.

Wider playing areas are really good , as players lose interest when they play poorly, and rough tends to discourage them. I'm all for easy pin positions and forward tees 90% of the time as your general set-up, good players can just  walk to the back of the bus, or wherever they choose to tee it from.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 07:07:17 AM by archie_struthers »

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2010, 09:11:54 AM »
Raising the capital seems easy, but, it's the expanding ongoing operations budget that's the killer

It is amazing to me how many really smart people, people who have been successful in business, don't understand this.
When a golf course is renovated, restored, whatever...and bunkers are added that require extensive handwork because that's what they looked like 60 years ago, but no consideration is given to the labor required to now maintain those bunkers, then problem are ahead.

If you’re going to restore your course to something it was long ago, you may want to consider how the course was maintained in the past. Sometimes old looking features combined with modern maintenance expectations are not the perfect mix, especially  when shrinking budgets are added to the mix.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2010, 09:37:45 AM »
Mike Sweeney,

Quote
Pat Mucci talks about the way golf should be, but this is it right here. Great conditions at a low price, you walk the course, good pace of play, and a natural layout with some quirk."   Add in the Huckaby standard of being able to get a beer and a "good bowl of soup" after your round and you have perfection IMO. [end of quote]


I think you have to add the need for an enjoyable CHALLENGE, and that's the product of good architecture.

Without good architecture there's no LURE.

While the lure in Maine may be that there's no other course within 50 miles, in Metropolitan New York, there's hundreds of courses within 50 miles, therefore, to attract and retain members, you need more than a beer, a bowl of soup and 18 tees and greens.
You need a quality product.
And, by quality, that definition may reside within the mind of the golfer, retail or otherwise, hence, you have a far more competitive and discerning environment where we live versus a state near the Artic Circle  ;D

Today, in the MET area, golfers, if given the choice of clubs, one well maintained and the other "natural", even though it may cost more, they're going to gravitate to the maintained facility.

I think TV has been a bad influence when it comes to course conditioning, raising the expectation level beyond the financial ability to maintain.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2010, 10:03:41 AM »
Pat said:

While the lure in Maine may be that there's no other course within 50 miles, in Metropolitan New York, there's hundreds of courses within 50 miles, therefore, to attract and retain members, you need more than a beer, a bowl of soup and 18 tees and greens.

If you can name 5 courses in the MET area with better greens than Cape Arundel, I will cheer for Notre Dame football for a year.

You need a quality product.

And, by quality, that definition may reside within the mind of the golfer, retail or otherwise, hence, you have a far more competitive and discerning environment where we live versus a state near the Artic Circle  ;D

Pat, your annual trip to Fairfield County does not make you an expert on New England. I ran into Joel at Equinox earlier this summer (that is in Vermont !!) and he confirmed that you get the jimmys north of Yankee Stadium.  :)

Today, in the MET area, golfers, if given the choice of clubs, one well maintained and the other "natural", even though it may cost more, they're going to gravitate to the maintained facility.

Pat you and I both know lots and lots of places looking for members. How do you explain Garden City having a full membership? The fancy clubhouse, the perfect maintenance (not saying it is not well maintained, but it is not and should not be Atlantic) ....... Oh wait, it is cheaper than 90% of the comparable clubs in the area and it has great greens and good soup like Cape Arundel.

I think TV has been a bad influence when it comes to course conditioning, raising the expectation level beyond the financial ability to maintain.

Golf Club Altas is not helping that profile either. Most of us (myself included) "hit and run" a course one or two times and expect it to be perfect. When it is not, the course quickly gets dismissed here.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2010, 10:19:13 AM »
Pat said:

While the lure in Maine may be that there's no other course within 50 miles, in Metropolitan New York, there's hundreds of courses within 50 miles, therefore, to attract and retain members, you need more than a beer, a bowl of soup and 18 tees and greens.

If you can name 5 courses in the MET area with better greens than Cape Arundel, I will cheer for Notre Dame football for a year.
You name ONE course and hold it out as representative of every course in Maine ?

*Mountain Ridge ?
*Hollywood ?
*Winged Foot West ?
Winged Foot East ?
Fenway ?
Old Oaks ?
The Knoll ?
Essex County ?
Forsgate ?
*North Shore ?
*Bayonne ?

Would you like me to send you the music and lyrics for the Alma Mater and Fight Songs ?


You need a quality product.

And, by quality, that definition may reside within the mind of the golfer, retail or otherwise, hence, you have a far more competitive and discerning environment where we live versus a state near the Artic Circle  ;D

Pat, your annual trip to Fairfield County does not make you an expert on New England. I ran into Joel at Equinox earlier this summer (that is in Vermont !!) and he confirmed that you get the jimmys north of Yankee Stadium.  :)

Have you ever walked on the streets just north of Yankee Stadium ?
At night ? ;D


Today, in the MET area, golfers, if given the choice of clubs, one well maintained and the other "natural", even though it may cost more, they're going to gravitate to the maintained facility.

Pat you and I both know lots and lots of places looking for members.

Mike, they're not looking for members, they're competing for members.


How do you explain Garden City having a full membership?

Let's start with the fact that it's a world class golf course and unique to not only the MET area, but the U.S.


The fancy clubhouse, the perfect maintenance (not saying it is not well maintained, but it is not and should not be Atlantic)

It's very well maintained.
And, you're using Atlantic as your example ?  Atlantic which is probably one of, if not the best maintained course in the MET area, if not the U.S.
.......

Oh wait, it is cheaper than 90% of the comparable clubs in the area and it has great greens and good soup like Cape Arundel.



If it's less expensive it's probably because it's a GOLF club with NO social events.  No dinner service, like NGLA and Seminole.
That's why it's less expensive than comparable clubs in the area, because those clubs are full service clubs with tennis courts, swimming pools and dinner service and all kinds of social activities.  So, let's not try to compare the incomparable.


I think TV has been a bad influence when it comes to course conditioning, raising the expectation level beyond the financial ability to maintain.

Golf Club Altas is not helping that profile either. Most of us (myself included) "hit and run" a course one or two times and expect it to be perfect. When it is not, the course quickly gets dismissed here.


I'm not so sure of that.
If you play a number of courses in an area and they're all in good to reasonable shape, and then you play a course in the area that isn't in good shape, that course should be criticized.


Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2010, 10:32:22 AM »
No money ---- Perimeter fencing and goats.  How is that for a maintenance meld.  You could have some holes with wide fairways and some with narrow fairways due to eating patterns, not mowing patterns. Sounds a little retro, but then so does drinking a lot of beer for me.   

Trey Stiles

Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2010, 11:03:07 AM »
Raising the capital seems easy, but, it's the expanding ongoing operations budget that's the killer

Raising capital easy ??????  My recent experience has been that for the last 2 yrs it's totally locked up unless you are prepared to secure your debt with 100% liquid assets and then it's at a very low LTV ( not saying that it did not need to tighten up from where it was )


It is amazing to me how many really smart people, people who have been successful in business, don't understand this.
When a golf course is renovated, restored, whatever...and bunkers are added that require extensive handwork because that's what they looked like 60 years ago, but no consideration is given to the labor required to now maintain those bunkers, then problem are ahead.

Good point Don ... It seems like really smart and successful business people just totally and absolutely empty their brains out when they step on a golf course project ... I've seen it over and over , it's like their eyes glaze over ... and there's always somebody hanging around that will enable them

If you’re going to restore your course to something it was long ago, you may want to consider how the course was maintained in the past. Sometimes old looking features combined with modern maintenance expectations are not the perfect mix, especially  when shrinking budgets are added to the mix.




I'm not so sure the narrowing fairways concept saves a lot on money ... you still irrigate , fertilize , pre-emerge , post-emerge , ect ... I've made that mistake ... the actual savings were quite small and the golf courses became more frustrating for the avg guy or gal

I've recently been wondering if players expectations at mid / lower level are a little less demanding as they gain more insight into what a struggle many course owners are in ... I've been hearing comments like " Oh well , at least they are still here " & " Hey give them a break , they are struggling " ... There will always be the top level ( and that's a good thing ) , but I hope ( for the health of golf ) that the spread between top level and mid level gets larger.

Back to the question :  We had a great past 20 years , we figured out how to produce a product ( architecture , maintenance & services ) that has outstripped our consumers ability to pay for it ... Long term it will be a good thing to get back to basics

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2010, 11:13:45 AM »
Whenever we discuss how the economy effects course maintenance it is helpful to understand that most course maintenance budgets are no more than 20% of the club's budget.
 



Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2010, 11:15:17 AM »
Pat,
I always thought more courses in the past were saved by lack of money than having money but now days you could be right.  Everything you mention there is true.  Our club assessed 6 million dollars and the vote out of 800 members passed by 9 votes.  

Over on the Maine thread, Mr Moore attributed the following to me:

"People talk about the way golf should be, but this is it right here. Great conditions at a low price, you walk the course, good pace of play, and a natural layout with some quirk."

What I really said was:

"Pat Mucci talks about the way golf should be, but this is it right here. Great conditions at a low price, you walk the course, good pace of play, and a natural layout with some quirk."  ;) Add in the Huckaby standard of being able to get a beer and a "good bowl of soup" after your round and you have perfection IMO.

It is much easier for the clubs of Maine to deal with a recession in the economy and the industry because they have never had any real money to start with. Yet the courses, mainly due to the heat in Southern New England and NY this year, were in the best shape that I saw all year.

We played with  someone who was working at rebuilding the bunkers at a club in Maine and it is basically a 2-3 year project for him and the club. I don't know what the budget is, but I know what it isn't. This is a Ross course that I have not played - too far up - but cost something like $1200 per year to join.

Okay, okay it is in Maine uplands, but remove the land, debt and taxes of many courses in the lower 47 from the budget, how many could produce the same condtions with a comparable budget?

Mike Young's course has a 12 month season so the numbers should be higher, but $6.0 mm in debt is crazy. The interest payment on the debt alone are probably the greens budgets at many clubs in Maine, and they all have very good Lobster Bisque for Huckaby!

Mike S, I think they ASSESSED the $6M, not borrowed it.  But don't know the actual details, other than that's a lot of money.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2010, 11:22:11 AM »
Patrick,to your original querry, I don't think it's a one-size-fits-all answer.  Too much depends on the club, it's membership expectations, wherewithall, current debt (if any), other ancillary items (tennis, pool), location etc.
For instance, watercosts might be a big factor in the southwest but not in the northest.  Clubs in the Southwest might react by trying to cut water costs and result in less frequent (dare I say FF) irrigation. slightly long heights of cut and more unirrigated areas.  However these items may not even be on a NE courses radar but other things like reassessing there disease and fertility regimes, whether to heat the pool.  

Mike Young - what the hell do they need $6mil for anyway?
Coasting is a downhill process

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2010, 11:26:28 AM »
Patrick:

I can see both good and bad in benign neglect (and my experience is limited almost exclusively to daily fee and muni courses, which don't hold the architectural cache of most privates, but is where most golf here in the US is played).

Bad:
-- Overgrown trees, and the lack of money to properly thin trees. Mike McGuire, on another thread re. costing of course changes, indicates it's the equivalent of moving mountains to get his membership at his (private, and very good) club to cut down a tree.
-- Poor bunker maintenance. If you're looking for one place where muni's have really cut back, take a look at their bunkers -- almost all are poorly maintained, with sand rarely replaced, or deepened, and crap (large stones, grass mowings, the like) in them all the time.
-- Lack of attention to poorly draining or poorly grown-in areas of the course, leaving bare patches and grass that doesn't grow back after a wash-out.
-- Greens over time being reduced in size, due to long-time mowing practices.

Good:
-- A big one: no money to really monkey with the course in a substantial way, such as dramatically changing/flattening greens, getting rid of odd and quirky features, or lengthening the course (sometimes due to lack of room, but additional tee boxes are expensive both in the short and long-term).
-- The opportunity for faster and firmer conditions, due to less money spent on "greening up" courses. This is iffy -- I've seen this in some courses, but not in others, where presumably the regulars/super/maitenance staff believe in keeping, by tradition/practice/habit, a green course.
-- No money for other non-related golf expenses (clubhouse expansions, driving range improvements, additional practice areas),which tends to keep what money the course has focused on the golf course. (I'm continually struck by how much wood golf courses buy to expand their clubhouses. Why don't they just cut down the wood they have on the course and use that -- two birds with one stone. ;))

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2010, 11:55:58 AM »
Patrick:

Crystal Downs is one of the best-preserved designs from the Golden Age BECAUSE OF benign neglect.  Because it is a summer club, the membership never wanted to spend much on it, and nothing much changed,  The bunkers grew in a little bit, but that was easily rectified with a flat-nose shovel.  And the mowing lines change, but it is not too hard to change them back as long as they haven't built anything in the way.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2010, 12:09:46 PM »
Tom Doak, et. al.,

I don't know that I'd equate benign neglect with opting not to spend money to alter the golf course when the funds are available.

I know of a club with fairly significant resources where the club didn't alter the golf course, architecturally, for about 70-80 years.

I know of other clubs not far from the one referenced above where every Green Chairman makes changes to the course.

What triggered my thoughts on benign neglect was green shrinkage.
One of the more pronounced was the 11th at NGLA where the entire rear plateau was allowed to grow to rough height.
That in turn altered the play of the hole considerably since the back plateau was no longer putting surface.

Invasive tree growth was another factor.

What's interesting about invasive tree growth is that it usually leads to altering the fairway lines since the mower operator tends to steer wide of the growing tree/drip line.  So, trees are planted that seem inocuous, but, over time, as the trees grow, they impede the path of the mowers, which in turn alters the fairway lines and corridors of play.

While everyone says these things are easily fixed, they usually aren't, and thus the alteration of the course and play continues, unabated.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2010, 03:23:57 PM »
Most of these things would be very easily fixed, if not for club politics.

We are fixing such things incredibly fast at North Shore CC right now.  That would have been impossible five or ten years ago with the green committee they had, but it's easy with one owner running the place.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2010, 03:27:53 PM »
Patrick,
Please check out http://punchbowlgolf.com/2009/04/bruce-cadenelli/

Or, just the video:   http://vimeo.com/3177525

You'll hear Bruce speaking about "genteel neglect", a concept that has worked exceptionally well at French Creek.    This video is from a couple of years ago, and the course was in danger before Bruce took over.  He's saved tremendous amounts of H2O, even in 2010, the year from hell for greenkeepers here in the mid-Atlantic.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2010, 06:46:34 PM »


If you can name 5 courses in the MET area with better greens than Cape Arundel, I will cheer for Notre Dame football for a year.
You name ONE course and hold it out as representative of every course in Maine ?

*Mountain Ridge ?
*Hollywood ?
*Winged Foot West ?
Winged Foot East ?
Fenway ?
Old Oaks ?
The Knoll ?
Essex County ?
Forsgate ?
*North Shore ?
*Bayonne ?

Would you like me to send you the music and lyrics for the Alma Mater and Fight Songs ?


NO but it will be interesting to hear BC Alumni and new ND NBC color commentator Mike Mayock from Philly during the BC/ND game.  :) Congrats on your first win. Do you still want Charlie to come back??!!

Patrick,

It is well established that Cape Arundel's greens are remarkable. See Ran's old thread and a number of other threads from people who travel above Winged Foot East.  ;)

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,4921.0/



I have heard from three people that "along with Fishers and Yale, Cape Arundel has the most interesting set of greens in the northeast."

Right or wrong, you get the point - this course must be seriously cool!

While Yale screwed up some of the greens over the years, Cape A and Fishers DO NOT try to run greens at silly speeds that can't be supported. Fishers wont even spring for a sprinkler system!! As a result, there is no pressure to flatten greens. Cape A's have probably gotten smaller over the years, and Mr Moore even speculated once that they may have had some double greens, but the contours seem to be all Travis. You of all people should understand the special nature of untouched Travis greens.

Jet Blue goes to Portland now and Mr Moore has some juice at Prouts Neck (Stiles), the Maidstone of Maine. We can finish up with former PGA Tour Commissioner Dean Beman at his home course Webhannet and see his US Amateur trophy(s). Should I book your flight!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2010, 07:34:44 PM »
Most of these things would be very easily fixed, if not for club politics.

We are fixing such things incredibly fast at North Shore CC right now.  That would have been impossible five or ten years ago with the green committee they had, but it's easy with one owner running the place.

Tom, that has to be a refreshing change of pace.

What are your plans for 11 ?

It's a pretty impressive green sitting atop that hill.


John Moore II

Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2010, 11:03:46 PM »
more changes than conscious efforts ?

Probably

Is the lack of money often the foundation for ongoing changes to a golf course ?

Small changes, yes. Covering/grassing over bunkers, less bunker maintenance in general, etc.

Are we about to go through a period of substantive changes due to the crisis at local clubs ?

Possibly, but not extensive changes

What will be the more prominent changes brought on by benign neglect or lack of funds ?

Wouldn't the benign neglect come from the lack of funds??

I've noticed that mowing patterns and frequencies have been changed at some clubs.
I've seen higher rough and narrower fairways (less area to maintain)
I've noticed that areas outside the playing corridors have been abandoned when it comes to maintaining them.

I've seen bunker maintainance diminish.

What other areas will be affected from a maintainance perspective ?

How will GCA be affected by the lack of funds ?

Fundamental GCA will probably not be affected too much. A bunker can be grassed in, but if maintained with higher than standard rough length grass it can still pose a hazard. The routing is pretty fixed without a huge expenditure. Fairway and green contours are pretty well fixed. So, the things that are really in jeopardy of being lost, IMO, are some far back tees, bunkers and perhaps in the rare cases where they exist, second greens on holes (holes that have two separate green sites). But the 'big' things can't really change, things like the routing, like contours, or even something like grass type.

And lastly, will clubs, in an effort to retain existing members and attract new members, go through a modernization/renovation/restoration process ?

The mid level clubs may do this a little bit, but it is not likely. The high end clubs will do whatever they feel like because money is of little concern to them.

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2010, 11:44:48 PM »
more changes than conscious efforts ?

Is the lack of money often the foundation for ongoing changes to a golf course ?

Yes, it's happened in spades at my home course over the last five years

Are we about to go through a period of substantive changes due to the crisis at local clubs ?

Yes, it's getting worse now that we are in receivership

What will be the more prominent changes brought on by benign neglect or lack of funds ?

I've noticed that mowing patterns and frequencies have been changed at some clubs.
I've seen higher rough and narrower fairways (less area to maintain)
I've noticed that areas outside the playing corridors have been abandoned when it comes to maintaining them.

I've seen bunker maintainance diminish.

All of these things have happened at my club, especially the narrow fairways and unplayable rough.  Add in the fact that we're in the transition zone, and have had a couple of cool, wet summers followed by the summer from Hell, and you can see huge areas of Poa annua that developed and are now dead.  Thankfully our receiver has turned away from the clubhouse-centric thinking of 20+ years of boards and is prepared to do what needs to be done this fall.

What other areas will be affected from a maintainance perspective ?

In our case, greens have gotten even smaller, tree trimming and removal has been minimized, weed control--including the above-mentioned Poa has suffered, there's been a serious lack of irrigation system maintenance and a general failure of drainage systems

How will GCA be affected by the lack of funds ?

Thankfully, no one will be planting a lot of trees, or screwing with bunkers.  Sadly, our greens aren't likely to be restored to their previous sizes.

And lastly, will clubs, in an effort to retain existing members and attract new members, go through a modernization/renovation/restoration process ?

I hope that a new owner will do that, but in today's economy and with the very competitive pricing of golf in our area, it's hard im agine someone pulling that off.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Mark Luckhardt

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Re: Is benign neglect responsible for
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2010, 08:28:15 AM »


If you can name 5 courses in the MET area with better greens than Cape Arundel, I will cheer for Notre Dame football for a year.
You name ONE course and hold it out as representative of every course in Maine ?

*Mountain Ridge ?
*Hollywood ?
*Winged Foot West ?
Winged Foot East ?
Fenway ?
Old Oaks ?
The Knoll ?
Essex County ?
Forsgate ?
*North Shore ?
*Bayonne ?

Would you like me to send you the music and lyrics for the Alma Mater and Fight Songs ?


NO but it will be interesting to hear BC Alumni and new ND NBC color commentator Mike Mayock from Philly during the BC/ND game.  :) Congrats on your first win. Do you still want Charlie to come back??!!

Patrick,

It is well established that Cape Arundel's greens are remarkable. See Ran's old thread and a number of other threads from people who travel above Winged Foot East.  ;)

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,4921.0/



I have heard from three people that "along with Fishers and Yale, Cape Arundel has the most interesting set of greens in the northeast."

Right or wrong, you get the point - this course must be seriously cool!

While Yale screwed up some of the greens over the years, Cape A and Fishers DO NOT try to run greens at silly speeds that can't be supported. Fishers wont even spring for a sprinkler system!! As a result, there is no pressure to flatten greens. Cape A's have probably gotten smaller over the years, and Mr Moore even speculated once that they may have had some double greens, but the contours seem to be all Travis. You of all people should understand the special nature of untouched Travis greens.

Jet Blue goes to Portland now and Mr Moore has some juice at Prouts Neck (Stiles), the Maidstone of Maine. We can finish up with former PGA Tour Commissioner Dean Beman at his home course Webhannet and see his US Amateur trophy(s). Should I book your flight!

Interesting looking at that old thread describing how Cape Arundel would never consider fairway irrigation. Well, now with 1000 irrigation heads, it will play slightly more modern than the ground game.  But, to me it is the quirkiness of Cape Arundel that is the essence of being there. It is very open and lots of views of other golf holes as well.

The greens I would second, have gotten slightly smaller over the years, but the larger areas that were lost were recaptured by Hepner. Superintendent Brendan Parkhurst has a smaller maintenance budget than most, and my guess is that will allow him to preserve the natural looks of Cape Arundel without trying too hard.

These greens at Arundel seem strikingly familiar, albeit links vs. mountain topography, with Travis's greens at CC of Scranton. I wonder if these two clubs have the most preserved greens of Walter Travis's? 

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