Sight Lines ...

[Matt_Ward]

I had the opportunity to return to Arrowcreek -- the 16-hole layout in Reno. The layout has two distinct 18-hole courses -- the Challenger is available to the members and is designed by John Harbottle with Fuzzy Z as the celebbrity connection. Well done layout on some of the finest land -- both scenic sand strategic you can play in the area.

I wanted to play the other 18n -- an Arnold P desig. Generally, I avoid AP designs because they are so predictable. This course is a good bit different -- you have very rolling land and AP and his design team have added tough to decipher sight lines when standing on a number of the tees. The hole do turn in one direction or the other and often times you might be plunging to a sight situation that is not possible to see from the teeing areas. This makles things difficult to gauge when ready to pull the trigger. Couple that with some wind and the demands of sage brush areas not too far removed from the fairway and it's E-Z to get heistant and make even more mental errors.

I really like when architects make sight lines challening -- not simply providing total awareness or a blueprint on just where to go. Making players uncomfortable is a neat feature and while the AP Legend Course has its share of so-so holes this feature makes playing there something you need to pay attention to in order to handle the design properly.

[Rob Rigg]

Matt,

Please start giving your posts a quick re-read for spelling - I am trying to check them out but find it very challenging/frustrating because of all the mistakes.

Much appreciated!

[Matt_Ward]

Rob:

My apologies -- will do better. Arrowcreek is a 36-hole facility in the Reno area.

Interesting that Old Macdonald uses the issue of sight lines vey well with the 3rd and 4th holes there.

The Legend Course at AC is one of AP''s better designs because of this feature - especially the fun par-4 10th hole.

[Rob Rigg]

The 3rd and 4th at Old Mac are epic.

The Sahara tee shot - especially into a heavy wind (3rd for those who have not been to OM) - is truly all world. Hogsback - the 4th - is almost as exciting - in either wind direction.

OM has some obscured sight lines on approach shots as well - such as the 6th due to the Hell Bunker and the 16th due to the Alps - but this thread is about tee shots.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Sight Lines, no but if you are talking about Nazca Line, now I am fully with you.


It is rumoured that Old Tom flew over on the back of a giant bird to lay out a course or two at Nazca, however the land was not fit for purpose due to no grass and its stone covered landscape. In the hour and days he spent walking over the land trying to find a suitable site,  he left tracks. Apparently in awe of the Great Man the indigenous population decided to record his visit by the only fitting way of walking over the land and thought the intervention of the Gods transformed the land to what we see today.





The Nazca Lines represent the actual dedication of a whole people to the game called Golf, starting with honouring it first and longest tradition of Walking. To remind themselves of what is at the heart of the great game they walked  while thinking and in doing so imprinted the land with drawings of animals and birds. To think here are a people that were never able to have a course built due to land being unfit for purpose, but have enough love for the game to insist in walking.


Sight Lines, no think Nazca Lines and to the people who built them – never forgetting the reason why they were built – “to remind the world that golf is all about Walking and Thinking”


Have a nice Day with your sight lines


Melvyn

[Matt_Ward]

Melvyn:

What kind of tea are you drinking ?

Try to stay on the point of this thread.

thanks ...

[Jeff Fortson]

[Melvyn Morrow]

Matt

Sorry you could not see the humour in it and decided to make a point, let's not forget I kept my post on the subject of golf.

Pity you did not make the same point to Jeff.  But hey what the hell it’s a DG so we should expect double standards

Anyway are sight lines able to keep you awake or do they put you to sleep which seemed to be the affect upon me when reading the post, hence my interjection of a little wake up humour.

Melvyn

[Bill_McBride]

Melvyn, I suspect Jeff might be suggesting this thread could turn into a train wreck!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bill

I think that was clear, but there is nothing on his post about Golf, at least I stuck to the subject matter. Then humour is not a strong point on this site is it? There is more fun in being rude and offensive to others. Thats when most members run for the hills, but that life, a modern train wreck in the making, right? Real sight Lines

Melvyn 

[Matt_Ward]

Melvyn:

I have a good sense of humor but I just wanted to say on track (no pun intended) and I meant that for all involved -- including Jeff.

If this topic puts you to sleep- I'm sorry you blissfully ignore what is an important element in adding another dimension to a design. So many holes are really easy to figure out the first go around.

Making the sight lines more difficult to comprehend adds to the challenge and demonstrates, at least to me, a sophistication in adding a bit of "uncertainty" to any player before they launch their tee shot.

Old Macdonald has a few of these holes -- the 3rd and 4th are both great examples of this. As I mentioned prior -- I am not a fan of much of what AP has designed -- but The Legend at Arrowcreek in the Reno area is a good addition that clearly can ruffle the feathers of players who want everything to be so easily spelled out.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Matt

Regrettably I am not able to see the courses you mentioned first hand but I do understand your point. As for sight lines, well let’s say I enjoy courses like Windermere (http://www.windermeregolfclub.co.uk/) see course map.

.

This course has a blend of many enjoyable features from blind holes, bells to ring, criss cross holes and hills to climb just to reach the Green. I think it is what is described a sporty course and worth a stop-over on the way from London to Scotland. It’s our Lake District too so some nice views.

Melvyn.

PS Windermere is on our West Coast in our Lake District just south of Carlisle which is close to the beginning of Hadrian’s Wall. Driving up the East Side stop-over at Warkworth  http://www.warkworthgolfclub.com/  and play their course - fun course and nice town which is located north of Newcastle Upon Tyne which is at the other end of Hadrian’s Wall.
 
PPS Hope this helps puts the train back on the lines

[Matt_Ward]

Melvyn:

Many thanks -- what amazes me is how lost this concept is with so many Amercian designers -- it seems they have catered to the whims of players here in the States who are not comfortable in hitting tee shots to areas that they cannot see in its entirety. I like when things are not so easily seen the minute you step on the tee. You may not be familiar with the AP course I mentioned he did in Reno but the sight lines are quite vexing and require a good bit of commitment from the player before pulling the trigger -- throw in some wind and the matter is far from e-z.

Too bad more designers don't do it -- Doak and the collaboration team at Old Macdonald have added this feature and it makes such holes as #3 and #4, to name just two, so memorable in my mind.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Matt

I fear we are discussing 19th Century golf, so naturally it is defined as well past its sell by date by many designers. Such a shame because this is what made golf so popular in the first place as a ‘Thinking Walking Game’. Some of the greatest holes built requiring ‘A leap of Faith’, but then is that not real raw golf at its best.

We humans need a an adrenaline boost just to wake us up from the frustration of an over demanding working life. We need testing to make us feel alive, so the demand for real sporty courses should be paramount, but alas the clubs and course owners do not want to take the gamble. Nevertheless that is the very thing many golfers seek in their quest for satisfaction. Mine was nearly always found on links courses which offer that additional test of ‘airing (not erring) on the side of caution’ so play only on good calm sunny days or face the courses many moods and take ‘pot luck’ and whatever the day may bring including the wind. The results can be way better than Viagra, ops having an orgasmic senior moment just thinking about it.

Melvyn

PS There is nothing quiet like the Sound of Bells, the thought of freedom awaits pushing you to take your turn. Can make Quasimodo’s out of each of us although some may prefer the role of Esmeralda or do I mean  orienteering but using carts and aids.

[Cristian]

Rob:

My apologies -- will do better. Arrowcreek is a 36-hole facility in the Reno area.

Interesting that Old Macdonald uses the issue of sight lines vey well with the 3rd and 4th holes there.

The Legend Course at AC is one of AP''s better designs because of this feature - especially the fun par-4 10th hole.

Matt,

Nice thread, interesting.

You mention Old Mac 3 and 4. I would add 7, which is not a blind tee-shot but the right part of the fairway is obscured from view; the target is wider than one thinks, which plays games on the players mindset on the Tee. I quite like this subtle psychology, even though it is not a real blind shot. What do you think of this kind of feature? Not being too familiar with US golf, is this also a feature seen little in (contemporary) American design?

[Matt_Ward]

Cristian:

I don't see much of American design really doing much of the things I have mentioned in this thread and what amazes me is how AP did such things with one of his design in the Reno area !

Doak, Urbina and their sucessful think tank team did that with a few holes at Old Macdonald. The 7th is just a superb hole -- the tee shot says hit right but i think the left side isn't a bad place to be.

Sight lines are made too e-z for many american players -- what's so funny is how such a concept is praised when playign across the pond but feared and loathed when playing here. Go figure.

[Peter Pallotta]

Matt - I think history, or more accurately a sense of history, is important in this context, and is tied also to the idea that golfers will more easily accept the vagaries of nature and of fate than they will the quirks/challenges that come from the hand of man.  In other words, when North Americans play great old GB&I courses that are 100+ years old, the sense of history prepares them to accept situations/blind shots as simply the way things are and have always been; and that attitude in turn makes those golfers more likely to see -- and accept, and embrace -- the courses and their sight-lines as products of nature and of time; whereas on American courses they tend to see only the hand of the designer, no matter how well disguised.  If we check in with eachother in 50 years, I wonder how young golfers then will view some of the (few) blind shots of today's new courses.  

Peter

[Tom_Doak]

Cristian:

I don't see much of American design really doing much of the things I have mentioned in this thread and what amazes me is how AP did such things with one of his design in the Reno area !

Doak, Urbina and their sucessful think tank team did that with a few holes at Old Macdonald. The 7th is just a superb hole -- the tee shot says hit right but i think the left side isn't a bad place to be.

Sight lines are made too e-z for many american players -- what's so funny is how such a concept is praised when playign across the pond but feared and loathed when playing here. Go figure.

Matt:

Actually, I have heard a LOT of grousing from Americans coming back from Scotland [and especially Ireland] about the lack of visibility of the hazards on overseas links.

In fact, Mike Keiser is really not a big fan of blind features, either, but I think he understands the difference between playing a bunch of half-blind shots, versus playing over something big and memorable.  In addition to the holes already cited from Old Macdonald, the second shot to #6 is blind if you are taking on Hell bunker, and of course the approach to the 16th is blind, as any hole named after the Alps at Prestwick ought to be.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I view blind holes as a nice change of pace, sometimes done out of necessity.  With the visual emphasis these days, holes are just more attractive when you can see them.

I also view a blind/alps like LZ to be fine once in a while, but think a visible LZ with invisible hazards is what tees golfers off. When I create a blind shot, I usually forego hazards, too.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

There's plenty of people who fall over themselves about golf across the pond but when returning want the "paint-by-the-numbers" design style that outlines everything. Their tagline is all about fairness but I like throwing mis-direction elements and a degree of non-comfort for the player to overcome.

C&C did this with their 3rd at Clear Creek -- and I have already mentioned the likes of 3 and 4 at Old Macdonald.

What's amazing to me is how people bitch and moan about AP's design at ArrowCreek but I like what it does given the need for shot shaping and being ever resolute before pulling the trigger at the tee.

I'm not advocating every hole mind you -- but it's an element that is too often disgarded because players have become spoiled here in the States to see design as being all about fairness and in seeing everything.

Turning points when couple with limited sight lines really make the player have to think thorugh and execute at a high level.

I see such inclusions as meaningful and Old Macdonald has two great examples int he 3rd and 4th -- as well as the 16th as tyou previously metnioned.

[Matt_Ward]

One of the more interesting things about this site is how green sites and the land around them is often thought as being the most important item. Unfortunately, the tee game dimension is often given less concern.

With today's equipment hitting ir straight is not an issue -- save for those who are much higher handicap players. The real issue is moving the ball when needed -- either left or right. I opined on Clear Creek that turning points were added at the course and better yet -- you have invisble sight lines that are also included -- the par-4 9th hole at Clear Creek is just a superb hole. If I had a short list of all-star holes the 9th there would be one of the holes selected.

Unfortunately, too many Americans (I admit it's a generalization) are intent on liking courses where everything is exposed -- nothing involves a degree of guesswork and sound execution to a spot that is chosen by the player -- rather than relying upon completely visible spots they can see before letting the tee shot go.