Jack's Legacy on Golf Course Architecture

[Ulrich Mayring]

How would you describe Jack Nicklaus in one sentence? Say, for a biographical entry?

Certainly this sentence would contain something about his success as a player, but would it contain anything about his golf course design business?

Ulrich

[Mike_Young]

Peter,

A good question is what makes one a critic or just simply a commentator. To paraphrase someone regarding critics as I recall he basically said the basic criteria of a critic is to act as a mediator between the work and the causal observer or user, in other words the critic needs to be able to describe and explain the essential elements of the work. Once a critic can explain the work then they can give their professional opinion and how effectively the work was produced and presented. So I see a critic of anything as needing a highly refined sense of what it is they are taking on. That is why I think very little of raters because I don’t think they have done the homework or have fine-tuned their own craft. Further, I think they tend to run in herds and really have no sense of what they are analyzing and therefore fall back on what basically is public opinion, basically just repeating what they hear.

That might be the best post I have read on this site in quite a while....I become so agitated with the idealistic nature of this site and th e total lack of realism....
Rule #1 in being a golf architect...be able to get the client....Rule #2...be good enough to get the next client...Rule #3..be able to design something between two tee markers and a 4.25 inch hole at the other end....whatever happens in that distance is pure speculation and opinion...if enough like it then you are good at what you do....Oh well...and it goes round and round....

[Melvyn Morrow]

Ulrich

He walked with head held high among the ghosts of heroes past over the hallowed turf of destiny to the Home of Golf, yet his future was to be so closely linked with laying his own turf throughout the world.       

Melvyn

[Mike_Young]

 He was a routing genius who could create world-class courses like Mozart created immortal music.

Aw come on Jim...Mozart was a different level....but I will give him Yanni

Myth is supposed to bring us together, but fantasy alienates us.  "Dustin Hoffman"

[Greg Tallman]

Randy
Can you tell us the name of the project that you are referring to?
Are you sure that it is not a Nicklaus Design project, seperate from a signature design?
thanks

Yes it is a Nicklaus design project seperate of a signature project, why does only signature projects include design visits now and by the way he did not attent the kick off party.

Because as a "Nicklaus Design" Jack is not involved in the project. It is soup to nuts by an associate and as such often ends up with spome edgy stuff. Jack does not lend his name, likeness or personal attention to these designs. That is not to say that these designs do not turn out much as they would if Jack had been there all the while. That is what happens when people have worked together for years.

[Randy Thompson]

Greg,
Yeah I kind of researched that today and that´s pretty much it. A Nicklaus design does not include his first name or the word signature and therefore you don´t get his involvement but you get indirect association and helps the clients marketing. Wow! What a world! Lots of discussion going on his level of actual knowledge in golf course architecture and how much he understands of golf course architecture and we really don´t know for sure and I doubt he will be posting on here anytime soon but I can say this, his legacy will be remembered as one of the greatest in history in relation to understanding the architectural business and how he capitalized on his house hold name developed from playing and turned this named into the biggest mass marketing tool and very very succesful design business. He also opened the doors for so many other tour players to also capitalize econmically by lending there names at outrageous prices to the golf course design business.
As Mike stated
Rule #1 in being a golf architect...be able to get the client....Rule #2...be good enough to get the next client...Rule #3..be able to design something between two tee markers and a 4.25 inch hole at the other end..
Has anybody ever come close to having 80 to 100 project going at the same time in different phases. This is the stuff that Legacy´s are made of, who gives a shit if he knows anything about architecture or not, he has created one hell of a business structure that will most likely will not be duplicated in the next fifty or hundred years or ever.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim P said,

"So let's say, hypothetically, that someone said something like, "Jack Nicklaus is arguably the best golf course architect/designer in the modern age."  And let's concede that Nicklaus builds a lot of courses so perhaps his batting average isn't as good as some others.  But what if we compare Nicklaus' top 5 or so versus the top 5 of other prominent GCAs in the modern age such as Dye, Coore & Crenshaw, Doak and (even) Fazio, RTJ or RTJ Jr.  How does Nicklaus fare in this comparison? '

*****

Tim, you have to look at a few things -- some people favor the more is more approach. Jack gets plentry of swings at the plate because his name gives him that reach. Others get far less opportunity but make the most of them when they move forward -- C&C are a good example of this approach.

The issue I often wonder is what would a Nicklaus design be if Jack had less courses in the hopper and a team like C&C had to produce the sheer number of courses that Nicklaus does through his design team.

In regards to top five courses -- Nicklaus has his share of outstanding layouts -- I have said that one of my finest Nicklaus signature layouts is Red Ledges in the Park City, UT area -- combines the visual with a wonderful balancing of holes in such a dramatic setting. Sad to say few have played it and much of that is tied to being in UT.

[Jim Nugent]

Matt, how do you rate Jack's top five courses with the top five of those other architects mentioned? 

[Jud_T]

Why should his batting average be lower unless he accepts more work than he is capable of doing really well.  And if that's the case doesn't that hurt his legacy?

[Mike_Young]

This kind of post really agitates me...
First...read the book  "Outliers"  I think I have my 10,000 hours in this golf stuff...and feel I could argue design with JN or whomever but in the end..neither of us would have changed the other or would admit it if we did...but that's not the point...the point is that if you respect the game...then you respect JN for what he has done for it...it looks stupid for a bunch of slapdicks to come on a site and start arguing his legacy...come on....

Here we have 1500 people..maybe double that with lurkers and you have 3000 who actually take the time to dissect golf course architecture even a little.( some may try to flatter themselves and say the number is quite larger but it ain't )  And 2/3 of the 3000 screw up the dissection...( read KBM post re Critics and commentators)  

It is very frustrating to try to even argue with a fellow golfer or member because they could care less and one will not change their mind as to whether something is good, bad or indifferent.

Truth is the golf business has tried to exploit GCA into some profession that never really existed in the first place....on this site we try to build some old golf professionals , rose gardeners or some guy that quits his medical practice( think about that one....any doctor today going to quit his surgical practice to draw some golf courses) into design geniuses......we try to ENHANCE much of what these guys did and didn't do...hey..they were good but they were not Mozarts  OK?  ..over the years there have even been efforts to group the practitioners and require licensure ....
Now having said all of that....a few of us are lucky enough ( if that's the right word) to end up with a few courses on the ground....and in the end that's all that matters here....the average golfer just wants to play....and the miniscule fine comb that this site uses to decide good from bad is not even considered....good and bad in this business to the genral public is not judged by design..it is judged by marketing and maintenance level( which is a huge part of marketing).
So yes, JACK NICKLAUS WILL GO DOWN AS THE GREATEST OF THE GOLF ARCHITECTS...and Donald Ross?  15 millon of the 24 million will know him not for his designs but because a place like Pinehurst was able to market him without paying him a dime...then clubs caught on and fell for the marketing tactic of restoring their "Ross gem" with a Ross Expert( more marketing)...   (before you become agitated..3000 will know him for designs)  
JUST GET IT IN YOUR HEADS ...people don't care or know how to care for the actual design...they like the experience , the hat, a good logo and the " I got the tee shirt" aspect....and really that's all we can ask for.

[Jud_T]

Mike,

To what do you attribute the success of Bandon Dunes Resort?

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

To what do you attribute the success of Bandon Dunes Resort?

The actual journey and experience.....good solid designs on good property with a good owner and a pretentiousness made from a lack of pretentiousness. 

Jud, What's your point?

[Mac Plumart]

Mike...

dude man, you are on a site where those few geeks, which you mentioned, congregate to discuss things like this thread.  That is what we do...this is our passion.  

The other millions of golfers who don't give a rip just might be missing out.  They pay $275 to play Great Waters and pass up Cuscowilla at $100ish and Longshadow for $50.  Their ignorance costs them from time to time.  When Longshadow is in shape, I take clients and friends there.  Without exception, each and every one of them has been stunned and blown away...espcecially given the fact that they have never heard of the place.  But they know the Nicklaus course (Great Waters) up the road.  

I think this is why we like discussing things like this...to cut through the marketing bullshit and find the truth about golf courses.  At least that is why I like it.


Here is your previous post on Jack's legacy...


  "Jack's Legacy:
IMHO JN is an extremely intelligent person and maybe the greatest player of the game..he picks up design ideas as he sees them and goes from there....since he was able to require large budgets he was able to give his staff opportunities they would not otherwise have when it came to creating golf courses...I have met several young men who carried a pompous attitude toward us "regional" designers and this was definitely due to their connection to the JN organization and not their design abilities( just a couple not all)...yet he has had some good senior designers in his stable such as Jim Lipe.  They definitely enhance JN.  

I think he brought two things to golf design....1.  he was one of the first to bring the course to the property ...often "placing the hole on the land instead of finding the hole within.  2.  He created the modern "tiered" green with targets within greens .

As for golf....he will be known as creating the era of the signature designer....and that era will not be back....he marketed the golf course via his name as a player as an amenity that could enhance RE values and was probably not as attentive as to what it did to golf the game.  If you look back JN and other signatures never sought out or marketed toward "daily fee" or muni courses until the private RE projects began to decrease....and then they went full blast into that area.  This entire era will be known for the business of golf destroying the game of golf....and that was the fault of many not just JN....
BUT in summary we all have to give the man a lot of credit for golf growing as much as it has....I have only met him once but from all the guys I know that know him they all admire the guy and say he is as astute and intense as anyone they have ever met....a good family man and good guy....the Legacy will show him as one of the best..."

Good stuff to me.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jack’s Legacy but as per the question what about 50 years or more importantly 100 years from now, will there be much left to call a legacy when referring to GCA.

Legacy is only important if it lasts otherwise its not a legacy

Melvyn

[Eric Smith]

If you have 5 minutes - read this, if you haven't already.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=nicklaus

[Mike_Young]

Mike...

dude man, you are on a site where those few geeks, which you mentioned, congregate to discuss things like this thread.  That is what we do...this is our passion.  

The other millions of golfers who don't give a rip just might be missing out.  They pay $275 to play Great Waters and pass up Cuscowilla at $100ish and Longshadow for $50.  Their ignorance costs them from time to time.  When Longshadow is in shape, I take clients and friends there.  Without exception, each and every one of them has been stunned and blown away...espcecially given the fact that they have never heard of the place.  But they know the Nicklaus course (Great Waters) up the road.  

I think this is why we like discussing things like this...to cut through the marketing bullshit and find the truth about golf courses.  At least that is why I like it.


Here is your previous post on Jack's legacy...


  "Jack's Legacy:
IMHO JN is an extremely intelligent person and maybe the greatest player of the game..he picks up design ideas as he sees them and goes from there....since he was able to require large budgets he was able to give his staff opportunities they would not otherwise have when it came to creating golf courses...I have met several young men who carried a pompous attitude toward us "regional" designers and this was definitely due to their connection to the JN organization and not their design abilities( just a couple not all)...yet he has had some good senior designers in his stable such as Jim Lipe.  They definitely enhance JN.  

I think he brought two things to golf design....1.  he was one of the first to bring the course to the property ...often "placing the hole on the land instead of finding the hole within.  2.  He created the modern "tiered" green with targets within greens .

As for golf....he will be known as creating the era of the signature designer....and that era will not be back....he marketed the golf course via his name as a player as an amenity that could enhance RE values and was probably not as attentive as to what it did to golf the game.  If you look back JN and other signatures never sought out or marketed toward "daily fee" or muni courses until the private RE projects began to decrease....and then they went full blast into that area.  This entire era will be known for the business of golf destroying the game of golf....and that was the fault of many not just JN....
BUT in summary we all have to give the man a lot of credit for golf growing as much as it has....I have only met him once but from all the guys I know that know him they all admire the guy and say he is as astute and intense as anyone they have ever met....a good family man and good guy....the Legacy will show him as one of the best..."

Good stuff to me.

Mac,
I'm just in realist mode this morning....and FYI...$50 is too much for Longshadow right now...

[Mac Plumart]

Eric...

GREAT article.  When was it written? 


Mike...

I find living in "reality" mode is a tad over-rated!!   

[Jud_T]

Mike,

My point is people aren't travelling to Nowhere, Oregon just for the experience and the hat.  It is what it is to a large degree because they have such great GCA.

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

My point is people aren't travelling to Nowhere, Oregon just for the experience and the hat.  It is what it is to a large degree because they have such great GCA.

Agree 100% and that is where I think we sometimes miss the boat....there is ONE Bandon.  BUT I bet everyone gets a hat while there ...and when you ask guys I know who designed the courses out there..the only name they actually ever remember (in most cases) is Ben Crenshaw...the average golfer does not recall architects..he recalls major championship winners....AND THAT IS NOT A SLAM AT ANY ARCHITECTURE AT BANDON OR ELSEWHERE...( PD is my favorite w BD next then BT)
17000 other courses....and if I were to ask the membership at our club here...over 800 members...maybe 5 have been to Bandon...a few are just hearing of it...no one I have mentioned Balyneal or Sandhills to knows where they are....As a matter of fact we were getting a trip for the UGA /Colorado football game in October and they have zero interest in Colorado golf Club or Ballyneal..they all want CastlePines...


I enjoy most architecture..if it is thought out...but it is down my list when it comes to everyday play...First I want a place that is convenient with a good practice facility, reasonable pricing, good maintenance and friends to play with....a good weenie machine and razors in the showers.....having to even mention architecture at your home club is like talking politics or religion...you ain't changing no ones mind...

[Mike_Young]

As a matter of fact we were getting a trip for the UGA /Colorado football game in October and they have zero interest in Colorado golf Club or Ballyneal..they all want CastlePines...

I won't question their judgement in golf courses as much as there judgement in football games. Who wants to watch Colorado? Jesus, with Nebraska they had to leave the Big 12 because both of them stunk up the conference so badly.

KBM,
The reality is they were using the Colorado game as an excuse to go to Castlepines...
Since I am not a UGA fan but happen to live near the stadium in Athens on the main route to the game, it is a rough day...75000 Ford trucks coming into town with Dale Jr. sticker, and UGA flags flying on both windows...a few " hell no we ain't forgettin" bumper stickers , and Skoal cans all over the place....The Dawgs are back....

[Matt_Ward]

Jud:

The business situation can be a daunting one in a weird way -- for example, sometimes the amount of business that Jack was getting --no doubt he was getting plenty simply because of his considerable reputation. Developers see Jack -- and Tom Fazio -- as the cats meow for selling their various real estate offerings or expanding their resort profiles. When you get THAT amount of business it's very likely that in the frantic pursuit of opening new doors to prospective clients and handling existing ones that the finished product in all cases will not be air tight in terms of lasting products that will stand the test of time. That's not an excuse but reality. Donald Ross did no less the same thing and while he is feasted here on this site there are plenty of former Ross courses that are now parking lots or other usages.

I think Jack and Tom F get a slightly bad wrap and some of that is jealously for others in the field because they have used their names and/or connections to get ahead while others have had to take the long slow climbs that often result in dealing with projects that will likely not get a fraction of attention from others.

I do believe Jack made a conscious choice to be the "world" architect and he created a business model that allows for different levels of his brand to be created in the world. The curious thing would be to see if Jack did less work would his finished products be better than what they are now? I don't have an answer for that. Ditto the flip side for people like C&C if they were forced to do the amount of projects that Jack does would their names be seen as they are now or would they have a few projects that are mediocre or less.

Jim N:

I see Jack's career in a slightly different way than a few others. His earlier work is almost forgettable -- save for a few designs. Desert Highlands being one of them.

Nicklaus did change his approach to designs years later and much of the more recent efforts is far better on a consistency meter. There are some of them that are great or near great from the ones I have played. My portfolio of Nicklaus courses played is close to 100 and I have seen the evolution of his work.

Jim, Red Ledges in Park City is a great course in my mind. The scenery, routing and overall experience is one of the Bear's stunning achievements. Other layouts get more ink -- see Muirfield Village and Castle Pines, to name just two, but Nicklaus has done far better in more recent times. The issue for me is that Jack personally likely will not admit as much with his work and his business model that he has followed.

[Mac Plumart]

Matt...

Could you give us 5 (or so) courses that you would play in order to get a sense of Jack Nicklaus' progression as an architect?

[RSLivingston_III]

Has it been decided that JN has actually done any any GCA on his own, or are all "his" works done by others and he mostly just signs off on the final product.

[Tom_Doak]

Ralph:

I don't know how most of the people in this discussion could make that distinction.

Having dealt with Jack Nicklaus, the one thing I can tell you is that he certainly wants to design every course his name is on, and he certainly thinks that's what he's doing ... whether or not he does the routings.  (None of us knows if he ever does.)

I suspect that one of the reasons we got along reasonably at Sebonack is that Jack still did all the things on that job that he normally does ... approve the routing, make six or seven site visits during construction, and sketch out the strategy (greens and bunkering) of each hole.  The only difference at Sebonack was that I did the routing, and we sometimes revised the strategy upon further discussion. 

But, if anyone here thinks he was just going to leave it all to me, they're crazy.  He doesn't want to leave it to anyone else.  Indeed, I think his weakness is that he really does want to design every detail himself, but he just doesn't have enough time to do all of that as well as he might.  The caveat being, Jack thinks he is devoting exactly the right amount of time to make all those decisions.  He asked me two or three times during the process why I spent so much time doting over the details when we could be doing more courses instead; I just told him I was happier doing it my way.

[Chris Johnston]

Has it been decided that JN has actually done any any GCA on his own, or are all "his" works done by others and he mostly just signs off on the final product.

I can tell you he was and remains deeply involved and engaged at Dismal River Golf Club.  He knows every hole, every bunker, and every elevation change, every green.  Jack is a pleasure to work with and he wastes little time.  The whole "works done by others" is insulting and getting old. 

As Tom mentioned, he does it his way.