[Phil_the_Author]

Pinehurst #2. I found it boring and unimaginative with holes crowding each other. I felt it greatly over-rated. The only reason I would consider even playing it again is because of the redo by C&C...

[Kevin Pallier]

I haven't played enough top 100 courses to have much of a list, but right now, Royal Dornoch would be on mine.  I have to admit that I was played like poop the one time I was there, but even if I were playing better I suspect the length of it was just too much for me to want to play it all the time.

Ken

An interesting choice and whilst I think quite the opposite - each to their own.

I'll define "great" for this instance as one that's in World Top100 course listings. The rough at Bethpage Black certainly affected my enjoyment of my game there....

[Phil_the_Author]

Kevin,

"The rough at Bethpage Black certainly affected my enjoyment of my game there...."

So you must have thought that extra long peach fuzz that has found its way onto Augusta is a terrible thing...

[Bruce Katona]

Plainfield CC - why - missing the faiway by one pace requires an amateur to take out their SW or PW and hack the ball back into the fairway.  The rough is a true 1 shot penalty.  There is very little chance of recovery and scrambling to make par for the averga eplayer id difficult.

Is the course well routes - yes .  Green complexes and greens fantastic - yes.  

The members are proud of their course and should be, but playing the majority of my rounds there would be difficult.  Additionally, my wife could not play thecourse unless we used the "foot wedge" rule if she drove into the rough....She does  not have enough club speeb to advance the ball out of the rough.

[Kevin Pallier]

Kevin,

"The rough at Bethpage Black certainly affected my enjoyment of my game there...."

So you must have thought that extra long peach fuzz that has found its way onto Augusta is a terrible thing...

Phil

I haven't been to Augusta to comment there 

[Phil_the_Author]

Kevin,

May your golfing travels find you there and if you tell me the rough there spoiled your enjoyment of the course I will graciously bow to your experience! 

[Kevin_Reilly]

First, I'd get tired of playing any course day in and day out.

For me, a course that isn't walkable (with a low bar for walkability) would not be enjoyable on a regular basis.  With that in mind, I'd put Kapalua Plantation in this group.  Very enjoyable course to play, but not really walkable.  And even if you wanted to walk, you would be miserable with cart groups on your heels all day.

There are a couple of other highly regarded courses that I can think of where most of the rounds are played with carts, and that wouldn't be what I'm looking for on a "regular" basis....walking with carts pulling away in front of you and on your heels behind you.  NO THANKS.

If someone feels claustrophobic at Olympic, then they probably are claustrophobic or they hit a driver like Tiger.    

And I echo Pat's post about playing the proper tees.  Last week I played Olympic behind an older foursome which included one guest who hit a driver off all of the par threes except #15 because for some unknown reason they were playing the BLUE tees.  There was absolutely no reason why any of them should have been playing the course at that length.  I had to ask them to pick up the pace...which they did (even though they stayed on the same blue markers).

[John Shimp]

Medinah #3.  Too many trees, too much rough, a slog.  Not my kind of tough course. 

[Keith OHalloran]

Pat Mucci,
I agree, the course is fair, although still difficult, from the forward tees, however my post was also about the lenght of the day. The walk up the hill at 15 when you are 5 hours into your round and 6 hours into your day can feel like a death march at times. Again, the course is great but I am not sure I could enjoy it as an experience on a daily basis.

[Bill_McBride]

I haven't played enough top 100 courses to have much of a list, but right now, Royal Dornoch would be on mine.  I have to admit that I was played like poop the one time I was there, but even if I were playing better I suspect the length of it was just too much for me to want to play it all the time.

I think we played the medal tees when we were there, so I would love to go back, and play it from the gents tees, to see if it really was all about the length.

I do know this, I wouldn't want to play a "hard" golf course every day, especially if it featured a lot of places where a marginal shot results in penalty strokes or a lost golf ball.

Yesterday I played Angel Fire Country Club and I don't care if I never play there again.  It's a classic example of my least favorite kind of course.  It would be relatively easy for a low-handicapper, and almost impossible for a 20.

Tomorrow, it's Black Mesa, and I am looking forward to my second trip there with relish.

K

Ken, have fun at Black Mesa, love that place.  However, it might be more important to play the appropriate tees there than at Dornoch where there are no forced carries.  My thought at Black Mesa is from the gospel of Clint Eastwood/Dirty Harry:  "A man has got to know his limitations!"

[Terry Lavin]

Locally here in Chicago, one would think that Butler and Medinah #3 might fit this category because they are great courses ( in my mind anyway), but they are so demanding and relentless (only "breather" hole is #19) that it would seem unlikely that one would enjoy playing them regularly.  But isn't it true that the more often you play a tough course, you begin to learn how to play it smarter?  Doesn't the course tend to lose it's psychological mastery over you if you play it often enough to shake some of the nerves, anxiety and diffidence out of your golf game?  If a course is great and you have a modicum of "game", I think that it would still be fun to play it regularly.  Then, every time you're invited to play at a friend's club, you can have your "breather" round.

[JR Potts]

Terry I agree with your analysis of the psychology of playing hard golf courses.  I don't find Medinah to be that hard at all....but I find Butler to be almost impossible.  

That said, as a two handicap, I almost lose straight-up to 10 & 15 handicapper members at Butler.  They don't see the terror that I do...or they're immune to it.

So, if asked what great courses I don't enjoy (for a walk-in-the park) Butler has to be my #1.  That said, I love playing there to test my game.

If we discuss great courses that I didn't really even enjoy the walk-in-the-park, Pinehurst #2 has to be my #1.  However, I expect my opinion of that to change greatly once C&C are done with their work.

[Steve Hyden]

I don't know, Terry.  On a Sunday some years ago, we were joined by a fellow who was in town to play a senior amateur event being played over the next two days.  He had never seen the course before, so we just told him where to hit it.  After holing out for his 73 he remarked, "I have a feeling that your best chance to score well here is the first time you play it."  The next two days he shot 81-82.

[JNC Lyon]

Gents, I'm still questioning whether these brutal golf courses are actually great.  Maybe some of them are.  I remember George Pazin saying that Oakmont was great fun despite his high score there.  However, the sort of difficult course that allows you to hit fun shots is different from the one that beats you over the head from start to finish.  I see many major championship courses, especially the ones of the tree-lined parkland category, as falling under the latter label.  These courses are one-dimensional through and through.  They don't require thinking--only reaction.  It is the cerebral element that makes golf superior to other games, and these layouts that give players only one choice take away that element.  In my mind, they cannot be considered great.

[Mark McKeever]

I love Bethpage Black, but I am not sure that I would enjoy playing every day. It is a tough walk, a very hard course, and takes almost 6 hours to play and you have to be there an hour before your tee time. The day is just exhausting. IMO

Well put Kieth.  I think Bethpage Black (very fun to play sparingly!) would be a tough course to play everyday.

Mark & Keith,

From the back tees, I'd agree, but what about from more forward tees ?

The same could be said of Winged Foot, Baltusrol, Ridgewood, etc., etc..
Played from the proper tees, those courses are all enjoyable day in and day out.
Played from the back/championship tees, those courses are overwhelming, day in and day out.

Pat,

You bring up a good point.  I have played Bethpage Black from the proper tees as well as the backs and it is a completely different golf course.  I guess my thought is that when I drive a few hours and sleep in the car to play it, I am usually going to want to play the back tees.  I usually get out there once a year and Im perfectly content.  If I was a NY resident, lived down the road, and could play it day in and day out, I surely wouldnt play the back tees everytime.

Mark

[Carl Johnson]

Carnoustie and Muirfield, for this average recreational golfer.  Admittedly, I've only played each once and at Carnoustie the required tees for the day were at about 6,900.  I was way underwhelmed by both of them.  I found no visual interest.  Except for the last couple of holes  and a shortish par 3 at Carnoustie, I have no memories of any hole on either course.

[Terry Lavin]

I don't know, Terry.  On a Sunday some years ago, we were joined by a fellow who was in town to play a senior amateur event being played over the next two days.  He had never seen the course before, so we just told him where to hit it.  After holing out for his 73 he remarked, "I have a feeling that your best chance to score well here is the first time you play it."  The next two days he shot 81-82.

Great story and you may well be correct. 

[Jim Franklin]

Hazeltine, Olympia Fields, Butler, Baltusrol Lower.

[Kevin_Reilly]

However, the sort of difficult course that allows you to hit fun shots is different from the one that beats you over the head from start to finish. 

This is an interesting comment...I would imagine that it depends on your definition of "fun".  An intermediate skier would be exhausted and perhaps even terrified skiing on advanced slopes, while an expert skier would enjoy the challenge.  A poor driver of the ball standing on a tee with trouble all around would possibly feel like an intermediate skier looking down at the top of a steep, mogul-filled hill....a sense of impending doom or struggle would leave him tense and unable to perform at his best.  An expert would look at either the tee shot or the ski run from a completely different point of view.

[PCCraig]

It seems many people don't enjoy playing hard "Championship" stlye courses (IE Butler, Medinah, OFCC, Hazeltine, Oakland Hills, etc...) which raises the obvious question: if no one enjoys playing them then why are they "great?"

[Mac Plumart]

Oh Mr. Craig, you may have just touched on something I consider very important with your above comment...

It seems many people don't enjoy playing hard "Championship" stlye courses (IE Butler, Medinah, OFCC, Hazeltine, Oakland Hills, etc...) which raises the obvious question: if no one enjoys playing them then why are they "great?"

Two "great" courses that I have played that I, in fact, wouldn't enjoy playing every day are Kiawah Ocean and Seminole.  Why?  They are too damn difficult for me to play.  Seminole the day I played it had 20 mph winds, BRICK hard greens stimped at 13 with ridges and slopes feeding balls into bunkers.  I've played Kiawah Ocean in 20, 30, and 40 mph winds.  Each and every time I've played it, it has been amazingly great and fun...but mentally exhausting.  So, I wouldn't want to play it/them every day as they are too difficult for my current skills.

HOWEVER, if I played them everyday there is no doubt about the fact that my golf game would improve significantly and my course handicap would travel quite well.  And if I was a tournament player, I think I would become a fierce competitor and a threat to win at each and every course I travelled to.  (Assuming I could survive the demoralization what would occur at the beginning of my every day golf at these types of courses).

I believe this is a BIG factor in many courses being defined as great.  They are great tests of golf.  Only the best golfers can score well on them.  In fact, I believe many of them were built for that specific purpose...to take golfers to another level competitively.  Furthermore, I believe Oakmont fits that bill...and I am sure a few others as well which were built right around that time.

So, I think GREAT courses fit into a few categories.  Perhaps two of them being, playable by the high handicap and a challenge for the scratch man...AND...courses that are simply sheer tests of golfing skill.  Play on the testing courses and your game will improve significantly over time.  Play on the more fun courses and your rounds might be more "fun" less stressful, but don't expect to have a great traveling handicap when visiting the likes of Oakmont, Medinah #3, and the like.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat Mucci,
I agree, the course is fair, although still difficult, from the forward tees, however my post was also about the lenght of the day. The walk up the hill at 15 when you are 5 hours into your round and 6 hours into your day can feel like a death march at times. Again, the course is great but I am not sure I could enjoy it as an experience on a daily basis.

Understood, but, is that a product of AWT's work or work by others subsequent to AWT original design ?

[Kenny Baer]

This may be hard for me to accurately convey what I am trying to say in this format but...

I disagree that you can get tired of playing a truly great golf course; I have never played Oakmont but just can't imagine playing it and then saying this was to hard for me, I have had enough; I am not all that good of a golfer; currently about a 5-6 index.  In my expierence I have never played a course and said I don't want to keep playing it because A. The greens are to fast B. The rough is to high, C. the fairways are to narrow.  I have just wanted to go back out there again and play better; but.........

I have wanted to and in certain cases actually have quit playing a course because of conditions related to weather.  Some courses are often presented in pretty extreme conditions ie. Kiawah, Bandon, much of Scotland and Ireland; I personally would tire of playing in 30+ Mph wind; to me that is only fun in short spurts and it gets old.  If those same courses were calm on a day in day out basis then I doubt I would ever tire of them.

[Martin Toal]

I don't know, Terry.  On a Sunday some years ago, we were joined by a fellow who was in town to play a senior amateur event being played over the next two days.  He had never seen the course before, so we just told him where to hit it.  After holing out for his 73 he remarked, "I have a feeling that your best chance to score well here is the first time you play it."  The next two days he shot 81-82.

Or that comparison not really practice vs tournament?

I played in a Pro-Am with a player who shot the easiest 65 you ever saw. Could have been a few lower on each nine.

Next 2 days, same tees, same weather but playing for money, 76 and 77.

[Steve Kline]

Pinehurst #2. I found it boring and unimaginative with holes crowding each other. I felt it greatly over-rated. The only reason I would consider even playing it again is because of the redo by C&C...

The holes crowded each other? The playing corridors for each hole are around 80-100 yards wide. It's almost impossible to hit on to another hole from the one you are playing. Do you play on course that has a 1,000 acres or something?

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