should Pac Dunes get "more credit" than OM because its "original"?

[PThomas]

(for those of you who have played both)

in other words, since OM is based upon the work of CBM, does that make it less of an original design than PD?  and yes i know its Tom and Jim's and the rest of thecrew's interpretations of CBM's work...but is that splitting hairs??i f so, should that be a reason to rate it lower than PD??

disclaimer:  i love PD, think its in the top 5 of designs i've played, but havent played OM yet.....next week tho!

[Garland Bayley]

No,

That should be a reason to rate it lower than NGLA. According to everyone's reports it is so different than PD I would think it would have to be considered separately, and achieve its rank independent of PD being there also.

[John Moore II]

(for those of you who have played both)

in other words, since OM is based upon the work of CBM, does that make it less of an original design than PD?  and yes i know its Tom and Jim's and the rest of thecrew's interpretations of CBM's work...but is that splitting hairs??i f so, should that be a reason to rate it lower than PD??

disclaimer:  i love PD, think its in the top 5 of designs i've played, but havent played OM yet.....next week tho!

Well, by this logic, none of CBM's work should be credited to him either. After all, he just took holes that others had designed elsewhere and put them into one routing and golf course. Never mind that he had to fit them in the proper order over the land, route them in coherent fashion, and make it appear seamless. Oh wait, Tom had to do the same thing with the holes, didn't he? Unless of course (and I've said this before) there was some long lost CBM routing for a golf course on the Bandon cliffs that was unearthed prior to Tom starting construction there and he simply followed that....

Old Macdonald is as original as Pacific Dunes or Rock Creek. Charles Blair Macdonald didn't route the course. He didn't shape the greens. He didn't do anything on that site. Mr. Tom Doak did those things. Him, Mr. Urbina, Mr. Bahto and the rest of the team. Unless the ghost of Charles Blair Macdonald came down and visited Tom on the site one day, credit goes 100% to Tom and his team. No question.

[Tom_Doak]

John K:

Hopefully Mike Robin did not get the ghost on film, so I can continue to receive my fair share of credit.


Paul T:

Old Macdonald is an original design.  It's a derivative work, but then again, so is The National, and in some respects, so are most golf courses.  I think Pacific Dunes is "more" original, in that there are a few holes there that are a bit different than anything you're likely to find anywhere else ... more of them than at Old Macdonald, anyway.  That matters to me, but it's up to other people whether that matters to them or not.

[John Kirk]

I like Pacific Dunes a hair better.  It has a charm and intimacy, a subtle rhythm of golf, that to me is unmatched anywhere.  It's little and challenging and oh so pretty.

[Richard Choi]

I have to agree with Mr. Kirk. Pacific Dunes just inspires me whenever I play it. I had loads of fun playing Old Mac and they are ever so close, but if I had to choose, PD would win by a nose.

[Peter Pallotta]

I like Pacific Dunes a hair better.  It has a charm and intimacy, a subtle rhythm of golf, that to me is unmatched anywhere.  It's little and challenging and oh so pretty.

John K - that is a most interesting description for a course by the sea.  Pray tell, how do you think TD captured this charm and intimacy out on the coast, with few trees to act as framing and with a big sky and constant wind adding (I'd imagine*) more to the feeling of expansiveness than of intimacy. Also, please expound on the 'subtle rhythms of golf' that it provides so well.

Thanks
Peter

* Alas, unlike the man that your man Dylan speaks of in that tag-line, the last thing I am is a rolling stone. I am more monument, fixed in place.  

[Carl Rogers]

In any creative field, the whole question of "What is original" is very murky and I think somewhat irrelevant.

In the field of building architecture, mine, some would say that there are only 5 or 6 original buildings in history and the rest are just variations.

[JC Urbina]

Paul,

 With the help of a lot of people you will never hear of I spent over 180 days creating one and almost the same amount on the other.  The passion was the same  for both of them no matter if one was called an original and the other an inspiration.

If they stir an interest in golf and challenge the senses then that's all a person can ask for

[Peter Pallotta]

Are mothers lying when they say they love all their children the same?  (I know my mother's not lying - she's always told me that I was her favourite!...)  

Peter

[Jud_T]

Yes,

But that doesn't de-facto make it a better course...

[Darren Gloster]

No. 

Whilst I like Pac Dunes slightly more than Old McDonald, I actually think what Doak and co did with the land at Old McDonald was amazing.

I am not a golf historian or architecture buff (actually part of the reason why I am on here, is to learn more), so I dont think I am influenced by what the majority deems to be right or wrong, or what is held as gospel.  I see golf through my eyes and how I hit the ball. 

The land at Pac Dunes is amazing and so was the outcome.  I thought the land at Old Mac was less than amazing and the fact that the guys were able to create such a wonderful, entertaining, playable, challenging and fun golf course is testament to everyone involved. 

Whilst not every architect would have delivered the same outstanding result on the Pac Dunes land, I do believe a fine course would have found its way on to the site from many of the worlds designers.  At Old McDonald I dont believe this would have been the case and the land available could have very much delivered the 4th ugly sister of the family, but this darling whilst not as stunningly beautiful, is every bit the enchanting girl next door.  Something that I think very few of the worlds architects would have been able to create from the site.

[John Kirk]

I like Pacific Dunes a hair better.  It has a charm and intimacy, a subtle rhythm of golf, that to me is unmatched anywhere.  It's little and challenging and oh so pretty.

John K - that is a most interesting description for a course by the sea.  Pray tell, how do you think TD captured this charm and intimacy out on the coast, with no trees to act as framing and with a big sky and constant wind adding (I'd imagine*) more to the feeling of expansiveness than of intimacy. Also, please expound on the 'subtle rhythms of golf' that it provides so well.

Put me on the spot.  I'll try.

I'm quite sure Pacific Dunes occupies the smallest parcel of land of any of the Bandon Dunes courses.  The green to tee walks are not only short and logical (perhaps with the exception of 11 to 12), but are beautiful in their own rite.  The course is blessed with beautiful land to build a golf course; part choppy dunes and part sandstone plains out by the cliff.  The stunted pine forest comes into play on a few holes as well.

But it's how Tom takes you around the property that gives its unbeatable appeal.  Choppy, then flat, choppy, then flat, and choppy once again.  Upwind for a couple holes, then downwind for a while.  The course is quite hard; you have to play very good shots to reach greens in regulation.  Each shot requires great care.  No slop allowed.  The requirement for precision, together with the ocean air, the senses are on high during the experience.  Should you execute well, and maybe catch a couple of good breaks, you can get to the 10th tee, the great downhill par 3 into a quartering wind, and thus begins the critical part of the journey, a four hole stretch into the wind along the sandstone cliffs where you have to keep the ball low and under control to post a good score.  The long uphill climb ends at the top of the course, the 13th green, hard along the cliff, framed by a 50 foot tall dune (which is experiencing a bit of fatigue I noticed recently).

In musical terms, Peter, I would suggest that the course experiences a crescendo here, and while the final few holes are wonderful, the intensity of the experience peaks here.

The course coasts downwind back towards the inland clubhouse.  A short 3.  A short 5 in the flats (not short without wind, though).  A very choppy short 4; play it left and short off the tee to make par.  One last long 3 into the wind, and a long, difficult and unusual par 5 in the dunes to the green below the clubhouse. 

I find that Pacific Dunes yields more "rare play" shots than other courses.  Every round or two, you find yourself standing awkwardly in the dunes, or turning your club around to hit it left-handed.  Perhaps it is the nature of the land, the severity of the dunes, especially around the greensites, that creates the unusual play situations.

Finally, there are so many photogenic holes on the course.  The look from the tee on 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 10, 11, 13 and 14 is just spectacular. 

(I also find Bandon Trails to be this way, by the way...beautiful looks from the teebox)

I have to go now, but I hope that answers the question a bit.  In summary, it looks great and it feels right.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, John. I allways enjoy your perceptive comments.

Peter

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I too am looking forward to this comparison. I so enjoy Pac Dunes and all that is the golf experience there. I do think comparisons should be based on the merits of the respective courses and not whether templet holes are involved or not.

[Kevin Pallier]

since OM is based upon the work of CBM, does that make it less of an original design than PD?...<snip> .......if so, should that be a reason to rate it lower than PD??

Paul

I was under the impression OM was built in honour of the work of CBM and the holes whilst having similar features with many of those CBM built - are not exact replicas and could thus be classified as "orginals" per se ? 

To answer your question - no I dont think the style of holes works against it - in fact I'd take the other tack and say that to make a Biaritz, Eden, Redan etc work on a piece of land takes great skill and compare the courses based on their own individual merits.

[Rob Rigg]

I think they should be judged and compared on their own merits.

Tom's recollection of golf holes from around the world must lead him to take bits and pieces from here, there and everywhere while fashioning all of his courses. The production at OM may have been template inspired but the holes are certainly not "copies" of anything. They all stand on their own despite the "homage" requirement. The work that Jim and crew did in the dirt on Pacific was a lot more than most would guess, but it had to be subtle - and I bet there is a lot of subtle work at OM as well - but what captures a golfer's attention is the obvious earthmoving or excavating such as the Alps or Hell Bunker. They are both amazing "originals" - no?

I agree with Mr Kirk - Pacific is one of the most spectacular "journey" courses I have ever seen. So incredibly intimate in many places while consistently providing amazing views of the ocean and surrounding property, especially on the tees and greens.

The scale at OM is so much more massive than anything I have seen in the US. The property, fairways, greens, bunkers, everything. Astounding for the fist time visitor and fun to play over and over again.

Two of the best "originals" in the world right next to each other.

[Ross Waldorf]

I have to say, I really enjoyed reading John Kirk's post. I have often thought about posting something similar. I think the thing that makes Pacific Dunes my personal favorite golf course has to do with just the kind of description that John used when describing it.

I think the course has that intangible quality that I usually feel in the presence of great art, perhaps John's musical analogy applies best, or maybe something akin to a great novel. That is, there is a beauty in the flow and pace of playing and walking Pacific Dunes that is rare in my golf experience. I always look forward to heading out to the course from the clubhouse (hope the new, more elaborate one hasn't changed the feel too much) -- you walk out through the trees to the first tee and are there confronted not by something particularly grand, but rather a very intimate vista that is filled with mystery. It's kind of a contained view, with the trees and the gentle rolling fairway. Not a grand style first tee in the tradition of say, Riviera. Intimate.

Then after leaving the first green, you step up to the second tee and the landscape begins to reveal itself. That view gets bigger and wider, and now you begin to get a taste of what the course has in store. Not to mention that no.2 is the first of many truly great holes that await.

And then the walk up the bank to the third tee, and the real grandeur of the site becomes apparent. I think the third tee is one of the great places in golf, and I love that it's taken you two holes and maybe 20 or 25 minutes to get there. What a view. And what a great golf hole. It's just a pleasure to hit shots and walk along the third, taking in the feel of the place. After which you get to take the walk to 4 tee, and that is a great walk. I like how the little trail from 3 green to 4 tee kind of winds through and around the dune so that the view of the 4th isn't immediately revealed.

The pleasures of 4 are pretty obvious. But one thing that I always think is a bit of real genius is how the next hole takes you over the dune into that cool little valley, which almost feels like a hidden place that you're just kind of discovering for the first time. And I've also always felt that the 5th hole is way underrated -- it's probably my favorite par 3 on the golf course other than 11. Such a neat little hole, tucked into that funky little dell. So I never feel any letdown leaving the ocean, because 5 is just so wonderful, and I know that the course will wind me back around to the ocean for more spectacular golf a little later. And it's just so cool how when you're playing 5 you feel kind of hidden from the rest of the course -- Pacific Dunes isn't one of those Bethpage Black-type, every hole is isolated from every other hole kind of courses -- but when you're on the 5th you do have a feeling of being alone for a few minutes. Which is unexpected and very pleasant. And then it's up over the dune behind the 5th green and on to 6 . . .

I'll stop there, but like John, I just can't imagine a more perfect journey through a beautiful piece of golf terrain. It really does flow like great music. What a golf course. Thanks to Mike Keiser and Tom Doak, Jim Urbina, and the other Renaissance guys for putting it there.

The first time I visited Bandon, I got sent out as a single one afternoon as the first player after the course had been down for maintenance for an hour or so. So there was no one in front of me and I pulled away from the groups behind me pretty early in the round, since I was playing solo. That was one of the most memorable rounds of golf I've ever played. Just to have the pleasure of wandering around Pacific Dunes, hitting two or three shots whenever I felt like it, and not really seeing anybody the whole way around. A wonderful afternoon. It's always a pleasure to play in Bandon.

Thanks for reading.
R

[Jim Franklin]

Old Mac is an original. trust me, you won't play another like it. Tom and Jim did an amazing job there and I liked it a tiny bit more than Pac Dunes. Both are in my Top 10 favorites though. More credit, less credit, does it really matter??? THey are both fantastic and THAT is what REALLY matters.