[Bill_McBride]

Bill

I've always interpreted "out-n-back" to be a routing "out" to the furthest part of land on a course after then one turns "back" home for the B9 ala NGLA.

I'd take your slant to be one continuous routing that ultimately returns home eg: Fishers Island

Right.  Our designers here don't have to deal very often with a pure linksland shaped site that's just wide enough for two holes between the sea and the arable land.  That's why I had in mind courses that don't have two loops of nine holes.

[Chris Tritabaugh]

Northland CC, Duluth  Ross masterpiece, especially this time of year

Thanks Mark!

The routing at Northland is interesting, at least to me. A club history document mentions that Ross visited Duluth twice. Once to lay out the course and a second time when he was called back by the membership because they did not like the fact the 9th hole did not return to the clubhouse. According the document, Ross came back, let the club know returning 9's were not feasible and the routing stayed. The clubhouse sits at the bottom of a large bluff and the corridor up and down the bluff, where the largest portion of the property sits, is too narrow to support more than 2 holes. Each of the 14 4 and 5 par holes are paired with another, while the 4 3's sit by themselves. The pairings are as follows. 1-18, 2-16, 3-15, 4-14, 6-13, 7-11 and 9-10. The 3's are 5, 8, 12 and 17. Pretty unique routing.

I will post an aerial tomorrow when I have my work computer.   

[Wayne_Kozun]

But, there is something to be said for a routing that returns to the clubhouse after nine.  It enables nine hole rounds to be walked.

But aren't out and back courses far superior in this way as you can play 2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16 or 18 holes while walking.  You just turn around after you have played half as many holes as you want and play your way home.

Last fall at North Berwick I came upon a group of older gentleman who let me play through.  They said that they only play six holes, they turn around after 3 and play 16-18.

[Scott_Burroughs]

The starter of this thread has made it clear he means "non-returning 9's", not pure out-and-backs like The Old Course.

But, there is something to be said for a routing that returns to the clubhouse after nine.  It enables nine hole rounds to be walked.

But aren't out and back courses far superior in this way as you can play 2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16 or 18 holes while walking.  You just turn around after you have played half as many holes as you want and play your way home.

Last fall at North Berwick I came upon a group of older gentleman who let me play through.  They said that they only play six holes, they turn around after 3 and play 16-18.

So when you cut over to the parallel hole, what happens when there are 7 consecutive foursomes coming through?

How do you turn in a score, since the loops will never have a CR and slope?

[Fred Yanni]

Well depending on the definition used - The Creek Club is pretty close to a truer "out and back" as many of the front nine holes play in one direction "out" and many of the "in" holes play in a similiar direction back in with the 9th green and 10th green being almost the furthest point out (although the 10th green and 11th tee may be the furthest from the club house, I am not sure).

But If by out and back we also include the description of  "does not come back to the club house at all" than Yale would fit that description very well.  

[Bill_McBride]

Well depending on the definition used - The Creek Club is pretty close to a truer "out and back" as many of the front nine holes play in one direction "out" and many of the "in" holes play in a similiar direction back in with the 9th green and 10th green being almost the furthest point out (although the 10th green and 11th tee may be the furthest from the club house, I am not sure).

But If by out and back we also include the description of  "does not come back to the club house at all" than Yale would fit that description very well.  

Fred, when I played Yale, it seemed to me the 9th tee and 10th tee weren't that far from the clubhouse.  As I recall there was a blister problem and we popped up to the golf shop for a cart.  (Don't tell Melvyn.)

[Gary Daughters]

Augusta Country Club out and back?

[JR Potts]

Medinah.  Pine Valley.  Merion

[Scott Warren]

Scott_Burroughs:

So when you cut over to the parallel hole, what happens when there are 7 consecutive foursomes coming through?

How do you turn in a score, since the loops will never have a CR and slope?

I'm guessing the old blokes at North Berwick weren't too fussed about turning in their score! I take your point - on a busy course just walking from 3 green to 16 tee isn't likely to be possible very often.

Ryan Potts:

Even if we are talking about not returning to the clubhouse rather than out-and-back routings, Pine Valley's 4th green is right next to the clubhouse and the 9th greens are halfway down the 18th fairway.

[Fred Yanni]

Fred, when I played Yale, it seemed to me the 9th tee and 10th tee weren't that far from the clubhouse.  As I recall there was a blister problem and we popped up to the golf shop for a cart.  (Don't tell Melvyn.)
[/quote][/b]

Bill you may be correct - I think the 10th tee is a long par 3 from the clubhouse down the entry road - I stand corrected.

[Brad Tufts]

Myopia!

[Scott Warren]

Brad,

It seems Myopia returns near the house at 3 and 16, with 7 and 12 also coming close.

What am I missing?

[JNC Lyon]

I think Scott Warren might actually be correct on this one...

Seriously, though, most of the courses named are not out and back routings.  Merion? Leatherstocking? Yeamans Hall? CC of Rochester? Garden City?  These are all courses with which I am familiar, and I would say none of these layouts are truly out and back.  In fact, Garden City is the only one that comes remotely close to qualifying because only 18 at GCMC comes back to the clubhouse.

I think an "out-and-back" routing is one where nine holes more or less march out in one direction to the end of the property.  Brora and North Berwick are the poster children here.  Merion is not.  I don't Merion ever has more than 3 consecutive holes running in one direction.  The whole idea of an out-and-back nine is that the player faces one wind direction on the way out and another on the way in.  These routings are inherently weak because there is no ebb and flow with the wind direction.  The out-and-back style means that players will face 9 impossible holes in a row and nine easy holes in a row.  The out-and-back routing is really only done to maximize the links land that is often at a premium along the coast.  Some places, like Sandwich or Prestwick, have greater swaths of links land at their disposable and therefore do not use the out-and-back.  Why would one use such a routing if it wasn't necessary?

[Sean_A]

I think Scott Warren might actually be correct on this one...

Seriously, though, most of the courses named are not out and back routings.  Merion? Leatherstocking? Yeamans Hall? CC of Rochester? Garden City?  These are all courses with which I am familiar, and I would say none of these layouts are truly out and back.  In fact, Garden City is the only one that comes remotely close to qualifying because only 18 at GCMC comes back to the clubhouse.

I think an "out-and-back" routing is one where nine holes more or less march out in one direction to the end of the property.  Brora and North Berwick are the poster children here.  Merion is not.  I don't Merion ever has more than 3 consecutive holes running in one direction.  The whole idea of an out-and-back nine is that the player faces one wind direction on the way out and another on the way in.  These routings are inherently weak because there is no ebb and flow with the wind direction.  The out-and-back style means that players will face 9 impossible holes in a row and nine easy holes in a row.  The out-and-back routing is really only done to maximize the links land that is often at a premium along the coast.  Some places, like Sandwich or Prestwick, have greater swaths of links land at their disposable and therefore do not use the out-and-back.  Why would one use such a routing if it wasn't necessary?

JNC

Of course, Scott is correct, but many folks call out n' back designs ones which don't come back to the house after nine holes.  I must also mention that the wind situation, if the definition of an out n' back is to be somewhat strictky adhered to, can also be the same for courses which aren't out n' back.  Kiawah comes to mind immediately.  In the UK there are some courses which essentially do the same thing, but which couldn't be called ou n' backers; Cruden Bay & Western Gailes come to mind. 

In fact, it may be surprising just how few true or close to true out n' backers there really are.  In playing these plots of land which usually accomodate out n' backers really well (long, thin strips of land) it is truly amazing how clever Brancaster is routed to avoid the typical 15, 16 or 17 holes in one direction or the opposite with 1, 2 or 3 holes using the other cardinal points.  There is a great use of doglegs and cross over holes which make the routing totally unique for such a limited shape property. 

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

I think Scott Warren might actually be correct on this one...

Seriously, though, most of the courses named are not out and back routings.  Merion? Leatherstocking? Yeamans Hall? CC of Rochester? Garden City?  These are all courses with which I am familiar, and I would say none of these layouts are truly out and back.  In fact, Garden City is the only one that comes remotely close to qualifying because only 18 at GCMC comes back to the clubhouse.

I think an "out-and-back" routing is one where nine holes more or less march out in one direction to the end of the property.  Brora and North Berwick are the poster children here.  Merion is not.  I don't Merion ever has more than 3 consecutive holes running in one direction.  The whole idea of an out-and-back nine is that the player faces one wind direction on the way out and another on the way in.  These routings are inherently weak because there is no ebb and flow with the wind direction.  The out-and-back style means that players will face 9 impossible holes in a row and nine easy holes in a row.  The out-and-back routing is really only done to maximize the links land that is often at a premium along the coast.  Some places, like Sandwich or Prestwick, have greater swaths of links land at their disposable and therefore do not use the out-and-back.  Why would one use such a routing if it wasn't necessary?

JNC

Of course, Scott is correct, but many folks call out n' back designs ones which don't come back to the house after nine holes.  I must also mention that the wind situation, if the definition of an out n' back is to be somewhat strictky adhered to, can also be the same for courses which aren't out n' back.  Kiawah comes to mind immediately.  In the UK there are some courses which essentially do the same thing, but which couldn't be called ou n' backers; Cruden Bay & Western Gailes come to mind. 

In fact, it may be surprising just how few true or close to true out n' backers there really are.  In playing these plots of land which usually accomodate out n' backers really well (long, thin strips of land) it is truly amazing how clever Brancaster is routed to avoid the typical 15, 16 or 17 holes in one direction or the opposite with 1, 2 or 3 holes using the other cardinal points.  There is a great use of doglegs and cross over holes which make the routing totally unique for such a limited shape property. 

Ciao

Somewhere along the way in this thread I finessed my way out of strict "out and back" to "non-returning nines," courses that are not two loops of nine holes.  And made the point that we don't have many sites in America that are long and skinny so they only accommodate two parallel holes.

[Scott Warren]

Despite that, Bill, we have people nominating courses that return to the clubhouse after say 3 and/or 12 holes, we have 9th greens 100 yards from the house being nominated as "non-returning" etc. It's not a fault in the premise of the thread you created, IMO, folks are just throwing out some truly strange nominations!

[Bill_McBride]

Despite that, Bill, we have people nominating courses that return to the clubhouse after say 3 and/or 12 holes, we have 9th greens 100 yards from the house being nominated as "non-returning" etc. It's not a fault in the premise of the thread you created, IMO, folks are just throwing out some truly strange nominations!

It will fall off page 1 soon............

[Scott Warren]

Things fall off page 1 remarkably quickly lately, whether they deserve to or not.

PS - Really can't wait for the 15th!

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