[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

Curious to the handicap level of the person you mentioned and those within his group.

OM is a good bit more demanding than Pac and that may have something to do with it.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

That member is a reasonably good player, but a senior ... probably a 12-14 handicap.  But I'd guess it was that he is a pretty straight hitter and not very long, and that he thinks he's rewarded for that more by Pacific Dunes than by Old Mac.  He didn't say anything about it being too hard, anyway.

[Jim Franklin]

Jim:

In my mind, I can't see NGLA being 10-0 over Old Macdonald --such a margin is beyond my imagination but Jonathan's been known to have quite a vivid one. I too wish to hear his thoughts on what the deficiencies are with the OR layout.

I love NGLA, but no way would I do it 10-0 over Old Mac. It may be a 6-4 and possibly even 5-5 for me. I had a blast playing Old Mac.

[Ross Waldorf]

To add my $.02 to the "It's All a Matter of Opinion" department -- I was just in Bandon last week and the thing that interested me most was whether Old Macdonald might knock Pacific Dunes out of the top spot of my all-time favorites courses. I absolutely LOVED Old Mac and look forward to playing it many times in the years to come, I hope. But the thing that really surprised me was how much more I like Pacific Dunes -- for me there's just no contest. And as I said, I really thought Old Mac was tremendous. It moved to the number 2 spot in my Bandon hierarchy. There's just something about Pacific that gets me. It's still easily the best for me.
R

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

The difficulty meter is clearly posible at Old Macdonald. Place the pins in some of the really vexing locations and have the tees placed in some of the most rear positions and the course provides some serious bite.

Pac Dunes gives players of certain levels an amount of pleasure that they may not find at Old Macdonald.

Jim:

Help me out -- Rock Creek and Old Macdonald -- how to do you see them -- I know your love of the Mt course - do you see Old Macdonald being ahead of Pac Dunes ?

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

I love all 3. I have Old Mac and Pac Dunes side by side in my personal Top 100 (Top 10) with RCCC just ahead of them. I had so much fun at RCCC and thought the design was superb. Old Mac is just different than anything I have seen in the states and again a ton of fun. Pac Dunes is just flat out fun and makes you think as do the other two. You need to really concentrate on where you want to be and how to get there. If I were to split 10 rounds with the 3 I would do 4-3-3 with RCCC getting the 4.

[Jud_T]

Matt,

How about an Old Mac vs. Pac Dunes head-to-head match?  I'm sure I'm not the only one interested.....

[Matt_Ward]

Jud:

I think I've mentioned how I see a few of the holes at Pac Dunes -- especially the 12th and 15th as filler / transition holes.

Old Macdonald is much more complete -- the segways between the holes do not lessen -- they provide a clear differentiation and the routing at Bandon's newest layout is much more complex and carries all sorts of the wind dimension situation to another level.

Old Macdonald doesn't surrender as easily to the big tee shot as Pac does -- in my mind. No doubt it's a stellar design but I see Old Macdonald capturing all the key details in a range of ways.

[Jim Franklin]

How about Old Mac versus Rock Creek?

[Garland Bayley]

Matt -

I love all 3. I have Old Mac and Pac Dunes side by side in my personal Top 100 (Top 10) with RCCC just ahead of them. ...

You can't play bumper cars at Bandon like you can at RCCC. 

[Sean Leary]

Matt -

I love all 3. I have Old Mac and Pac Dunes side by side in my personal Top 100 (Top 10) with RCCC just ahead of them. ...

You can't play bumper cars at Bandon like you can at RCCC. 

When I was at RCCC last weekend, I immediately recognized where that cart crash was.... It is a tough turn if going to fast.

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

I love all 3. I have Old Mac and Pac Dunes side by side in my personal Top 100 (Top 10) with RCCC just ahead of them. ...

You can't play bumper cars at Bandon like you can at RCCC. 

When I was at RCCC last weekend, I immediately recognized where that cart crash was.... It is a tough turn if going to fast.

Is there a plaque?

At least there are no flowers.

[Joe Bentham]

here it is, Old Mac vs. Pacific Dunes, match play.  I wrote this in May, before Old Mac had opened.  If I redid it today the winner wouldn't be different.  Although the margin of victory might be more significant....
http://pacduneslooper.wordpress.com/2010/05/18/old-macdonald-vs-pacific-dunes-match-play/

[Jim Nugent]

Any way to know which course the guests of the resort feel is best? 

[Tom_Doak]

Jim Nugent:

Yes, there is a way to know what guests of the resort think.  They will vote with their feet.  But the results won't be valid until the full 2011 season is played and the hype from the latest opening dies down a bit.  I've always said I will be happy if Old Macdonald winds up with 26% of the vote and I'm guessing that's about where it will fall.

[Matt_Ward]

Fascinating quote from architect Jeff B when visiting BD and getting a tour of Old Macdonald -- the quoye appeared in the book, "Dream Golf," by author Stephen Goodwin --

"To me, the courses are penal. There's no reward for the player who takes risks from tee to green because the greens and green complexes are so random.

You hit the green but you still haven't hit it. If you see what I mean. Miss by just a little and the ball takes off and keeps running. There's no way most golfers are going to get up and down from the situations around those greens. He's already made bogey -- why put him in a bunker, too?"

The quote comes from the most recent edition of the book and is quite fascinating. I wonder if Jeff were able tp play Old Macdonald or simply surmised that feeling from a walking visit while playing the others?

Curious to see what others take from such comments.

[Jud_T]

Who says you're always supposed to be able to easily get up and down if you put yourself in the wrong spot? There's nothing tastier than a seemingly benign short par 4 where you hit two solid shots, but mismanage the strategy of the hole and walk away with a 6....

[Michael Dugger]

That comment from architect Jeff B. is pure horse bleep.

There is reward for clearing hazards, much more so than on most courses.

The greens are random?  Random how?  In shape, in contour?  This comment makes zero sense.

He's 100% incorrect that golfers do/can not get up and down from around those greens.

It happens all the time...

[Matt_Ward]

Michael:

I think the flip question should be -- how much does driving the ball matter when held against the sheer details of the green complexes. Tom D even mentioned in CG his penchant for being more in tune with his putter than with his driver. Possibly an overstatement on my part but curious as to others see it.

thanks ...

[Matt_Ward]

Although not related to this thread but I have to wonder how much the original course at Bandon is benefiting from the aura that the other courses generate -- especially Pac Dunes and now Old Macdonald.

One of the more underrated aspects of OM is the sheer qualities of all the par-3 holes.

The 2nd is a bear with summer wind in your face -- especially if a back right location is involved -- yes, the Strath bunker is not really in play then but the sheer length and the velocity of the wind makes for an effective shot of 200+ yards.

The 5th is one of the best short holes I have ever played. Just so much involved and the waves on the green make fior a very tough decision at the tee.

The 9trh is equally well done. Great counterpont to the 7th hole and the upcoming cape 9th hole.

The Redan-like 12th gets little discussion but it's a solid long par-3 hole with options abounding for different shots -- the far right bunkers look out of play but are cleverly positioned to grab a few errant shots hit in their direction.

[Tim Book]

Just returned from a wet weekend in Bandon.  Living in San Diego makes one a pretty wimpy golfer when it comes to weather.  I was pretty concerned with the forecast as the week approach.  However, I can't believe what a great time I had trying to tackle all four courses in a 1-2 club winter wind.  Apparently you can play golf while it rains sideways, who knew?  I would love to try Old Mac in a summer wind because the winter wind was tough.  Our caddies seemed to think this was the first extended time that Old Mac had played into a winter wind.  They struggled a little bit on which lines to play and holes 3,4,10 & 18 all played nearly as par 4.5's.  I was expecting that Old Mac would take the crown as best at the resort for me, but Pacific retained the title.  Count me as a (PD 4, OM 3, BT 2, BD 1) in a 10 round trip.  Overall I am continued to be amazed what a fantastic expierence Bandon is.

[Matt_Ward]

The thing that amazes me about Bandon is how critical weather plays a role when there.

The stated par yardage and numbers mean next to nothing. One simply has to adjust to the daily elements. For many players such a challenge is most welcomed -- I have to say I have been to Bandon with friends who relish golf in a different way and I have to wonder if they truly understand that golf and the elements are linked together.

[Jud_T]

Although not related to this thread but I have to wonder how much the original course at Bandon is benefiting from the aura that the other courses generate -- especially Pac Dunes and now Old Macdonald.

Matt,

I think there's no question that BD benefits from the others on the property.  While a very good course in it's own right that was groundbraking in terms of bringing public links golf to the U.S., image if it were still the only course on the property.  Not only would it be suffering in terms of rounds as few would make the journey just for BD, but it would probably suffer in the ratings as well.  Interestingly, could the same be said for Bandon Trails?  In fact are all the courses raised up a notch or 2 by the presence of the others?  This is in no way to denigrate the courses which I hold in very high regard...

[Tim Pitner]

Jud,

Counterfactuals are difficult.  What if Pacific Dunes hadn't been built--how would that affect Bandon Dunes?  Well, if they had only one course, it would diminish Bandon as a golf destination.  But other things would change as well.  For example, courses like the Prairie Club and now Cabot Links might not be built were it not for the success of the Bandon resort.  I'd guess, however, that courses like Bandon Dunes and Bandon Trails would hold up just fine, even if PD and OM weren't around.  For starters, they're high quality courses in their own right and the experience--golf on sandy soil, on the Oregon coast, walking only--is novel enough in the U.S. that hardcore golfers would still seek them out. 

[Terry Lavin]

I think any of the four courses would stand out on its own.  I'm not sure how many people would spend a day traveling to get there or, better put, how many people would go out for repeat visits if there was only one course, but that's a business model question, not an architecture question.  Each of the courses is great.  The only one that really "suffers", in my view, is Bandon Trails, because it doesn't get any real oceanic eye candy until late in the round.  That's a shame, because it really is a great and difficult test of golf and because, of the four courses, it does seem most comfortable in its Pacific Northwest skin.  But if Bandon Trails were the only course out there, people would consistently rave about it.

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