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Chris_Clouser

Question for you Seth Raynor scholars
« on: August 30, 2010, 09:57:34 PM »
Did Seth Raynor do the course at the University of Minnesota that is now known as the Leo Bolstad Golf Course?  I am working on a project and was trying to tie down who did this course.  I saw an attribution to Raynor for this course and wanted to verify if this is correct.

Thanks

Chris Clouser

George_Bahto

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Re: Question for you Seth Raynor scholars
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2010, 10:25:10 PM »
Chris - he did not do that course

The Univ Course Cornish and Whitten gave him credit for was called - Univ of Minn GC - however it was located and built near across the street, not on the campus property. It evolved into what is now Midland Hills - a very fine golf course

The whole process of Midland Hills was initiated by the faculty of the University lead by Ralph Barton where he hooked up with Raynor.

Barton is a whole 'nuther story   :(
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Ronald Montesano

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Re: Question for you Seth Raynor scholars
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2010, 10:49:49 PM »
Isn't it Les Bolstad?  Bolstad won the USGA Public Links in Buffalo in 1925, then went on to coach at UMinn, I believe.
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Jeff Shelman

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Re: Question for you Seth Raynor scholars
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2010, 11:12:40 PM »
It is Les Bolstad -- named after the former Gophers player and coach.

It is not a Raynor. The Raynor is Midland Hills that is essentially across the street. History on Midland can be found here:

http://www.midlandhillscc.org/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=234957&ssid=87773&vnf=1

Midland Hills opened for play in 1921 (according to the club website). The U of M course opened in 1929.

Chris_Clouser

Re: Question for you Seth Raynor scholars
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2010, 07:07:46 AM »
Thanks for the information guys.  That helps a lot. 

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Question for you Seth Raynor scholars
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2019, 01:05:08 PM »
A quick followup on the Les Bostad (Univ. of Minnesota course).

Here are Rich Shefchik's words from a few years ago:

To further expand on Jeff's information on Raynor's work in Minnesota, the original U. of M. course was a 9-holer located more or less on the same site as the current 18-hole Les Bolstad course, started in 1915 by faculty and administrators of the University of Minnesota, including math professor Ralph Barton. When they became concerned that their lease would not be renewed, they began negotiating for the farmland across the street in 1919. They initially wanted Ross to design the new course (which would eventually be called Midland Hills), but Ross turned them down the first time and asked for too much money the second time, so they "settled" for Raynor, who was building Somerset CC in in Mendota Heights, just south of St. Paul. Barton was put in charge of organizing the club's volunteer work crews, and in the process began working closely with Raynor as his de facto foreman. Barton learned so much on that job that Raynor asked him to go to work full time for Raynor's architectural firm, leaving his job at the U. of M. to help Raynor build Mid Ocean.

In the meantime, those who didn't join the new private club stayed at the U. of M. course. Bill Clark (Minneapolis Golf Club pro who designed Oak Ridge and several Twin Cities municipal courses) lengthened and redesigned the U. of M. course in the early 1920s (it was briefly renamed Minnepau) before the University officially bought the course and enough additional land in 1927 to expand the course to 18 holes. They hired Vardon for that job. That course, now called Les Bolstad, is essentially the same as it was when Vardon's redesign opened in 1929.


Here's an Oct. 2, 1927 Star Tribune article discussing plans to expand the 9 hole course to 18 with civil engineering students to be involved in the process.

« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 08:15:09 AM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Dan Kelly

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Re: Question for you Seth Raynor scholars
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2019, 01:17:51 PM »
Time to update this, noting that the U of M is changing the Vardon routing.


This is what i can see from the road en route to Midland Hills: No. 1 is now a dogleg  right par-4 instead of a straight par-4. No 2 is a downhill par-3 playing to the old 1 green. No. 3 is a dogleg left instead of a dogleg right.


Haven’t played the course to see beyond that. Maybe someone else has.




"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

PCCraig

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Re: Question for you Seth Raynor scholars
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2019, 06:10:46 PM »
Why are they changing the routing?
H.P.S.

Dan Kelly

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Re: Question for you Seth Raynor scholars
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2019, 08:14:05 PM »
Why are they changing the routing?

Safety and sustainability.


See uofmgolf.com.




« Last Edit: October 07, 2019, 08:18:14 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jim Nugent

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Re: Question for you Seth Raynor scholars
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2019, 09:33:31 PM »
I can see the safety issue.  (Sort of.  When I played there I don't recall ever seeing a drive from the 3rd tee coming close to #7 or #8.  But the course must have real data on this.)   

Sustainability?  They're barely changing anything, only touching three holes, keeping them all in the same area, only rerouting the play a bit.  Does anyone know how this makes the course more sustainable? 

Tom_Doak

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Re: Question for you Seth Raynor scholars
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2019, 01:03:17 AM »
It's a university- so they've gotta be politically correct and sell the sustainable angle.


Sven:  I'm curious if you came across any figures of what Donald Ross wanted to design Midland Hills that was deemed "too much" and how much Raynor charged in comparison, or if tgat is just part of the lore.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Question for you Seth Raynor scholars
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2019, 08:16:31 AM »
It's a university- so they've gotta be politically correct and sell the sustainable angle.


Sven:  I'm curious if you came across any figures of what Donald Ross wanted to design Midland Hills that was deemed "too much" and how much Raynor charged in comparison, or if tgat is just part of the lore.


Tom:


Probably better to ask Rick.  That information came from him.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Rick Shefchik

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Re: Question for you Seth Raynor scholars
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2019, 02:36:56 PM »
Tom, According to Midland's board minutes from 1920, the club had a budget of $3,200 to build its new course, and they wanted Ross. He initially turned down the job, so the members contacted Raynor, who would be in the Twin Cities in April to inspect his work at Somerset in Mendota Heights. Ralph Barton and some other Midland board members met with Raynor and offered him the job, but he asked for $1,600, while the club was hoping he'd do the job for $500. They figured if they were going to exceed their budget anyway, they might as well take another shot at Ross. He replied that he would do the job for $2,000 plus hotel expenses for his assistant, who would oversee the construction. The Midland board wanted their architect to be present during at least some of the construction, so they returned to Raynor and asked him if he would lower his price by $100. Raynor agreed to do the job for $1,500. He went back and forth between Somerset and Midland, even building and contouring a number of the greens himself, but put the job of overseeing the day-to-day construction in Barton's hands.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 03:04:14 PM by Rick Shefchik »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Rick Shefchik

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Re: Question for you Seth Raynor scholars
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2019, 10:35:36 AM »
I must apologize for a mistake in my previous post. Midland Hills Club Historian John Hamburger has written a terrific, detailed article about the creation of Midland Hills for the Ramsey County History magazine, in which he includes a more accurate version of the club's Ross-Raynor dealings. Ross apparently never bid on the job; the $2,000 bid was made by Herbert Fowler. When I read the club's board minutes back in 2011, I mistook Fowler for a Ross assistant. I'm not sure if I should rewrite or delete my previous post, or let it stand, but I wanted to set the record straight for those who read it.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Dan Kelly

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Re: Question for you Seth Raynor scholars
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2019, 01:02:26 PM »
Thanks, Rick.


To the rest of you: IM or email me (with your email address) if you would like a PDF of John Hamburger’s article.


Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016