[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

There is no fluff -- the course is THAT good. I'm sorry if for some reason you believe one has to be "some critical analysis." Steve, do you wish for me to simply say things about specific holes and shots that are not true.

WV is beyond likes of Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon -- I have said that before and I have tried (likely not to your satisfaction) in trying to explain that. The course plays firm and fast and has exceptional stragtegic challenges from each tee box and the green designs are very well done -- contoured to accept only the best of shots.

You ask me to "provide us a good reason to do so." I think I have done that and will try to add a bit more detail.

WV is very flexible for all types of players. The firm and fast conditions were a joy to see because it then opens up the door to a range of execution options. The ground game does have a clear and important role when playing the course. I am not here to "sell us a membership with trite advertising gimmicks ..." -- please Steve I don't try to be glowing about courses unless they have something to offer.

WV is very affordable -- and likely it will be a course that many may not be able to play because it's location in Walla Walla doesn't make it so easy to get to when traveling.

I can add more comments as needed but I see the course as a true testament to what people can do in providing firsdt rate golf. If you think that's cheap promotion then you should go there and play it for yourself. Plenty of people have already played it and commented about the course -- if you notice their comments and size them up against mine you will see a certain commonality about why playing there is so very special. Hope this helps your understanding.

[Garland Bayley]

Steve,

What he writes sounds like he is reading off the scorecard. He has no pictures. I don't believe he even played the place. Probably visited all the wineries and dropped by looked at the first hole and picked up the scorecard, maybe a yardage book.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

Do yourself a huge favor -- before you glue your foot in your mouth -- contact the club directly and speak to Elijah -- the assistant pro there. Met him when I came to the course and he's a first rate guy. I had a photographer with me -- which he will attest -- and once she finishes her current assignment will post some photos. Played all 18 holes and even re-visited a few of the holes before leaving.

An apology is clearly warranted on your part. I assume you have some class to understand how utterly foolish you are with such ignorant blather on your part.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland:

Do yourself a huge favor -- before you glue your foot in your mouth -- contact the club directly and speak to Elijah -- the assistant pro there. Met him when I came to the course and he's a first rate guy. I had a photographer with me -- which he will attest -- and once she finishes her current assignment will post some photos. Played all 18 holes and even re-visited a few of the holes before leaving.

An apology is clearly warranted on your part. I assume you have some class to understand how utterly foolish you are with such ignorant blather on your part.

Actually Matt, I think the shoe is on the other foot. Write something that doesn't sound like it came right off the score card, and get the promised pictures up here. Then, I might change what I believe. I certainly have no apologies for what I believe. However, your bombastic "utterly foolish" and "ignorant blather" is not what some would consider the best in taste.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

You stated in clear terms -- that I was not at WV and did not play the course.

This is what you ignotantly and erroneously posted ...

" I don't believe he even played the place. Probably visited all the wineries and dropped by looked at the first hole and picked up the scorecard, maybe a yardage book."

"What you believe" is wrong.

I played the course and the photographer who came with me is on another assignment and will be glad to post the various pics taken.

I don't opine personally on courses I have never played. I really liked the course and see it at the very top realm of courses the general public can play for less than $100.

You stated that I have not played the course. THAT IS WRONG ON YOUR PART. Show some class as a gentleman and take the high road with a clear apology. End of story.

[Garland Bayley]

Matt,

You seem to need to learn the English language, unless of course you are God. I think you need to apologize for calling me a liar. I told you what I believe. You replied that I posted erroneously. Unless you somehow are omniscient and know better than I do what I believe, then you are calling me a liar.

What I believe may be wrong from time to time, but I have seen no evidence other than your insulting replies that my belief system is wrong.

As they say, put up or shut up.

I await your alleged pictures. I doubt your writing will improve at Steve's and my urging.

[RJ_Daley]

Why oh why must we have these posts that are clearly antangonistic, confrontational and bickersome?  Frank commentary is not synonomous for personalized and pointed chiding of people's writing style, nor mobbing on a personality parade of cliques where certain posters pile on to criticize individuals they don't like, for whatever reasons.  

This may be impolitic to say, and it may further the confrontation unintendedly by me, but it is an ever present 800 pound gorilla in the room when ever certain posters offer up their thoughts.   Ive seen it with Jay Flemma being lambasted on his prose, and this seems the same to me where folks are criticizing Matt for his naratives on the play of each hole at Wine Valley.  Let's be fair gentlemen.  If Matt says something on his narrative of a particular hole, and its design characteristics, and you have played it and think otherwise, then by all means be frank and comment.  But, to say his narrative sounds like a scorecard description, and all the other lambasting, subtle or obvious, is getting old, and continues to detract from what this DG should be all about.  

Matt, please continue, and the one criticism I would have to support the other side of this back and forth, is to add the photos with the narrative, or wait until the photos are in to start of the hole-by-hole.  But, from what I've read by Matt so far, I'm trying to figure out a way and time when I can get out thee to see Wine Valley.  Better than Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon is a tall order in my book.  But, from the photos I have seen, and the challenge by Matt, I am very open minded and anxious to see for myself.  It may very well be so...


Please don't be discouraged to continue Matt, with a few photos when possible.

[Steve Burrows]

There is no fluff -- the course is THAT good. I'm sorry if for some reason you believe one has to be "some critical analysis." Steve, do you wish for me to simply say things about specific holes and shots that are not true.

WV is beyond likes of Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon -- I have said that before and I have tried (likely not to your satisfaction) in trying to explain that. The course plays firm and fast and has exceptional stragtegic challenges from each tee box and the green designs are very well done -- contoured to accept only the best of shots.

Matt,

I am not suggesting that you are saying, or will say, things about the course that are not true, or even that the course itself is "fluff."  I am, however, suggesting that your description is "fluff."  For someone who is as well traveled as you say you are, and as knowledgeable about good and bad courses as you claim to be, I would expect a larger vocabulary to describe the place, and less of a reliance on catch phrases.  Comments about "firm and fast" or "exceptional stragtegic [sic] challenges" are far too broad, and hardly befitting of the praise you assign to the golf course.  For example, I know of a municipal golf course in my area that is low on design merit, though remarkably firm and fast, but that is because they are short on funds and I don't think they have aerified the place in 2-3 years; just being firm and fast is not a strong enough argument.

Ultimately, I wouldn't plan a trip out there just because Matt Ward, or anyone else says it is a good place (except of course, for my brother, whose tastes I trust implicitly).  The relative quality of the golf courses you have played does not necessarily mean that your opinion of a given golf course is worthy of being heeded.  However, if you present a good, reasoned argument about the quality of given facility, without peppering it with catch phrases that have been used in advertising materials for over one hundred years (and which, not coincidentally, exist on the hole-by-hole descriptions on the Wine Valley website), then your recommendation gains merit

I would honestly love to hear more about the course, and so I do hope you continue the "tour," but I also hope that it is done so in a more telling manner.

   

[RJ_Daley]

Steve, in your further discussion with Matt, it is interesting how you also have that tag quote from Descartes.  But, when it comes to well worn descriptions and narratives on golf design, I'm not sure most any original things are left to be said or phrases used that haven't been used already in marketting, or prolific golf design/architecture writers.  Can you give examples of narratives on hole by hole, or general course descriptions that you don't find somewhat repetitive if not trite?  I mean really... should we try to substitute the terms like 'firm and fast' with something like repelling or or rebounding and rapid and hyper reactive to inertia?  How many ways are there to say something compelling about GCA that haven't been said?

[Ed Oden]

Matt, you took a photographer with you?  That sounds more like business than pleasure.

[Steve Burrows]

Steve, in your further discussion with Matt, it is interesting how you also have that tag quote from Descartes.  But, when it comes to well worn descriptions and narratives on golf design, I'm not sure most any original things are left to be said or phrases used that haven't been used already in marketting, or prolific golf design/architecture writers.  Can you give examples of narratives on hole by hole, or general course descriptions that you don't find somewhat repetitive if not trite?  I mean really... should we try to substitute the terms like 'firm and fast' with something like repelling or or rebounding and rapid and hyper reactive to inertia?  How many ways are there to say something compelling about GCA that haven't been said?

Granted, I can't think of anything right now that could replace these otherwise over-used expressions. 

But I suppose my real concern is that, at some point, it all starts to sound the same.  If everyone is using the same written and/or verbal vocabulary, then no one course separates itself from another, at least by way of description.  The differences obviously reveal themselves on the ground (Wine Valley is different from Riviera, is different from Crooked Stick, and so forth), but that cannot be known without a visit.  But here, his goal seems to be to convince people that a trip to Wine Valley is worthwhile.  However, short of trusting the recommendation of a complete stranger, whose experiences are distinct from my own--and whose preferences for "good" or "bad" golf may be entirely dichotomous--and, moreover, if virtually every golf course has similarly worded hole-by-hole descriptions, I have no real understanding of the various strategic challenges I might encounter on a visit to Wine Valley or otherwise.  If I have played golf courses who use similar terminology, but have been disappointing to me upon visiting and playing them, then, lacking any more convincing description, I have little reason to to believe that this course is any better or different than those.

[RJ_Daley]

I guess I'm just not seeing your point Steve.  I didn't catch whether you had actually played WV or not.  But, using the following random selected hole desc., above by Matt, could you tell me or explain to us, what is lacking in the narrative of the hole? 

WV's 4th hole -- 390 yards from the tips -- is another example of strategic thinking beginning at the tee. The hole plays slightl;y uphill and turns ever so gently to the left -- Playing down the right side opens up the entire green -- small problem is avoiding a well-placed bunker that hugs the right-center side of the fairway. It's not large -- but ever so pesky. Going down the left side avoids the aformentioned bunker but then you must hit your approach over one of the largest bunkers faced at WV. The green is diaginally placed so going left only leaves you a far smaller target to land your approach. The hole is another example that mega length alone doesn't result in a sure-fire birdie. 

The only thing that would definitely aid me in this would be a photo of the tee ball, the LZ, and the green.  The narrative is in the vernacular of a golfer.  Does it need more metaphorical, allegorical, or analogical writing devices?  Jay Flemma uses heavy metaphors and a writing style that fits his literary studies.  Yet, I think he gets criticized for using that too heavily.  Not everyone is Bernard Darwin, or HWW.  Style is one thing, but I don't think that style must take precidence over using the conventional vernacular to get to the substance in describing the architecture found, as Matt is doing in his hole by hole examples. 

[Matt_Ward]

RJ:

Be happy to oblige on the photo side of things when they become available.

Suffice to say if you go to Wine Valley I believe you will love it given your deep personal feelings for Wild Horse and other courses of that ilk.

WV is set-up so well for the firm and fast conditions that people want so much to enjoy. The superintendent, who I had the great fortune in meeting and was present late in the day checking the greens when I was there, understands thoroughly how a modern "links" (I use that word in the most favorable way) can be accomplished here in the States even if the address is Walla Walla and not Ireland or Scotland.

RJ, the great thing about WV is that although it sports a 75+ course rating from the tips -- the slope from the back tees is very reasonable 130. That means the course provides a great amount of elasticity so that the average player can get around the course without being bombarded by inane forced carries or unreasonably narrow fairways that will result in lost balls or other such delays / frustrations. I really enjoyed Palouse Ridge in Pullman but WV is at minimum a good two to three steps ahead of it in my mind. The fees charged are very reasonable and the best time to play the course may be in the late afternoon as the sun slowly descends and you see the magnificent sunsets and the panorama of colors it provides.

[Matt_Ward]

Ed:

Yes, business was the primary reason.

Steve:

I read your comments and understand your point.

No amount of words that I provide can make up for the fact that I have played the course and likely you have not. Is it worth the visit? I'd say 100% yes indeed. I believe my background in visiting plenty of courses throughout the USA gives me some insights into my what constitutes a superior play. Do you think I say WV is superior to Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon as empty hyperbole? All I can say is for you to see the other comments made by those who have played there.

I will add photos when time allows and add addiditonal commentary as well.

And, I will try to add info in a more "telling manner." Be patient and judge me for what additional info I will provide.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Pete_Pittock]

RJ,
Here are some pictures and the hole schematics at the golf club website; http://www.winevalleygolfclub.com/golf-gallery.

Grudge match thread, for a comparison. http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40942.0/

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

The par-3 8th hole at WV plays roughly 225 yards but is a bit shorter -- the green is set up a slight angle from the tee shot and it requires careful though as to where the pin is located. A solitary bunker hugs the right side and you can use the hill on the left side to bounce balls into the target. I played with little wind -- I am told it generally is behind the player. There are several internal contours and while they are not major obstacles it pays to be within 30 feet of the hole to have a reasonable effort without too much internal movement.

The par-3 holes at WV give the player a fairly ordinary appearance in many ways but they do require approaches to use the existing land contours so you can bounce the ball into the areas when provided for.

No doubt budget plays a role but fortunately Wine Valley is blessed with a site that provides quality rolling property and the holes seem to fit quite naturally where they do.

The 8th provides an e-z appearance and is very dioable for the higher handicap player -- it just doesn't provide the lower handicap player with a sure fire birdie hole by any means.

[Matt_Ward]

I was asked previously about any weaknesses at WV and the one glaring one is that it doesn't have a short par-4 of note. There are some excellent mid-range par-4 holes that are under 400 yards -- but nothing under 350 yards with a range of options.

As I said previously when an architect opts for five par-5 and five par-3 holes -- not only is the challenge to get quality for such an array of holes but you are also left in any such configuration with only eight ( par-4 holes and trying to get the range and diversity for such holes can be difficult and sometime something can be missed. In the case of WV it's the really solid short par-4 inclusion.

[Kye Goalby]

Matt,

Imagine  the back tee markers did not exist on the fourth hole and the hole played between 325-335.  Do you think that hole would fit your description of a short par 4 under 350 with multiple options that Wine Valley is missing?

Would you automatically hit driver at the green?   Or would you  take the easy lay-up left, short of the large bunker,  leaving a tougher, longer  approach over the big pit withthe angle of the green making it kind of shallow (and hard to see)?    Or, would you try to carry the small center bunker and fit the shot into the narrowing fairway with a long iron/hybrid/three wood leaving yourself a little sand wedge in with the green opening up to you and visible?

Curious how you would play this shortened version of the hole.

To me this is a great example of a hole where adding yardage is detrimental to the actual golf holes design and where card and pencil/scorecard yardage mentality gets in the way of good golf.   What do you and others that have played it think?

PS- I think 7 is a better hole from the next tee up also- way more options and way better looking  hole from there too- as the bunkers were created to visually connect from that spot-had no idea another tee would ever be added.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

This was a larger than usual summer love fest  tour out west for Matt.

[Bill_McBride]

Gents:

The par-3 8th hole at WV plays roughly 225 yards but is a bit shorter -- the green is set up a slight angle from the tee shot and it requires careful though as to where the pin is located. A solitary bunker hugs the right side and you can use the hill on the left side to bounce balls into the target. I played with little wind -- I am told it generally is behind the player. There are several internal contours and while they are not major obstacles it pays to be within 30 feet of the hole to have a reasonable effort without too much internal movement.

The par-3 holes at WV give the player a fairly ordinary appearance in many ways but they do require approaches to use the existing land contours so you can bounce the ball into the areas when provided for.

No doubt budget plays a role but fortunately Wine Valley is blessed with a site that provides quality rolling property and the holes seem to fit quite naturally where they do.

The 8th provides an e-z appearance and is very dioable for the higher handicap player -- it just doesn't provide the lower handicap player with a sure fire birdie hole by any means.

You mean you don't routinely birdie 225 yard par 3's?  I am shocked............

[Michael Moore]

Matt W.

How about some critical analysis . . . engage us in an actual discussion about the holes.

Steve -

I find this to be a strange request. Matt Ward provides more detailed strategic analyses of more golf holes than anyone else on this site, by a mile.

I admit that it took me a while to come around to his insane prose style, with its hyperbole, mixed metaphors, braggadocio, and generalized logorrhea. But if you scratch the gonzo veneer, you will find plenty of intelligent analysis.

[Garland Bayley]

You know Matt, pictures are digital these days. Your photographer could just email them to you so you can post them.

[Scott Warren]

Garland, I'd say they'll need to appear in whatever she was commissioned to shoot them for before they can be published elsewhere.

[Mark_F]

You know Matt, pictures are digital these days.

Not real ones, Garland.

[Garland Bayley]

You know Matt, pictures are digital these days.

Not real ones, Garland.

That might be news to Aidan.

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