[Richard Choi]

Adrian, I believe Chambers Bay is averaging 30,000 to 35,000 rounds per year, and with $150+ per round, I doubt that the rounds will go up even with the added publicity. Since the courses at Bandon Dunes are averaging around 40,000 per year and their fescue greens are doing fine, with the same soil and weather, I don't think it will be too difficult to keep the CB greens as fescue. I see no poa on greens right now.

During normal play, I would guess they would keep grasses on the greens longer than what they have been for the amateur (even though they were still long enough for me to grab leaves in my fingers yesterday) and they will run at around 7 to 8 on stimp which is plenty fast enough for weekend hackers.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Richard - If you can grab the leaves then they are leaving them quite high, 7-8 stimping sounds like 6mm. The greens did not look super fast for the Am I am guessing they were sub 10. There was a fair amount of re-sodding evident, this in several places looked like loss of turf due to constrictions around the edges of greens, perhaps mower turnings. UK golf design needs to take far more account of what is good for the turf balanced with what is great for golf because of our weather restrictions on grass dormancy coupled with the fact we play 365 days. 35,000 rounds is fairly heavy play, with this in mind alterations to the golf course design may be required to balance the traffic movements of golfer and maintenance equipment, that fescue will go near dormant at times and so there is very little natural recovery from wear. Richard for normal play do you have areas caned/roped off to exclude wear in some of the green exit areas?

[Tim Leahy]

When do they put in the windmills and the clown's mouth?
I can't believe they are going to hold a US Open there with so many great classic courses available.

[Richard Choi]

Adrian, entrace/exit traffic pattern is still a bit problematic for the course. They had to rebuild the entire 4th green because of it. The additional problem is that the greens near the hills on the west side do not receive as much sunlight and they have more difficult time growing.

I would agree with you that they need to be more proactive about roping off areas in the future, but they do rope off problematic areas all the time.

The greens were running 11 to 12 during the US Am. That is what all the players were saying and what it seemed to me to my eyes as well. Double rolling the green really helped as the grass was laying quite flat and balls were running very true. They won't be rolling the greens as much during regular play.

[Garland Bayley]

When do they put in the windmills and the clown's mouth?
I can't believe they are going to hold a US Open there with so many great classic courses available.

About the same time they put them in down at Bandon.

[Germain Pepin]

I've never been to Chambers Bay, so I can't comment as well as others who have. But what i have seen on tv, it is a spectacular place to visit eventually for me.

[Steve Lang]

For all you Chambers Bay haters out there, all I gotta say is that if you haven't seen the course, hush.  It's a thing of beauty and is proving to be a great course for the Am.  The design is brilliant and players are really having to think about their shots.  The course is looking and playing great, providing drama along the way.  What could be better?

AGREED!

IMHO, from the limited time i saw it broadcast, the tv coverage really didn't do the CB course any great favors..  it hard to grasp the dimensions there unless you're up at the pro shop checking out the view or from standing at #5 or #9's tee looking out over the course's wide open expanse..  while it takes heritage from links design and challenges the aerial game options to score well, its still a big americana enterprize there! 

I think it helped separate the best US AMS during this past week and I'd be proud to have it in my backyard or within an hour or two's drive.

[Phil McDade]

When do they put in the windmills and the clown's mouth?
I can't believe they are going to hold a US Open there with so many great classic courses available.

Tim:

Which "classic" courses would that be, that are "available?" Names, please. The clear trend with majors, esp. the US Open, is that the championship is moving away from classic courses (presumably TCC at Brookline, WFoot, Shinnecock) because the clubs don't want the hassle of hosting it.

[Jud_T]

It's also a very positive step, regardless of what one thinks of the venues (Torry?), that they're putting an emphasis on public venues as well as, in this case, firm and fast conditions.....

[Tim Leahy]

When do they put in the windmills and the clown's mouth?
I can't believe they are going to hold a US Open there with so many great classic courses available.

Tim:

Which "classic" courses would that be, that are "available?" Names, please. The clear trend with majors, esp. the US Open, is that the championship is moving away from classic courses (presumably TCC at Brookline, WFoot, Shinnecock) because the clubs don't want the hassle of hosting it.

Here's a list, pick one, any one would be better than that putt putt course:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/golf-courses/2009-05/100_greatestgolfcourses

[Garland Bayley]

Gotta pull a Mucci on you Tim. You haven't seen it, so you comments lack any credibility.

[George Freeman]

When do they put in the windmills and the clown's mouth?
I can't believe they are going to hold a US Open there with so many great classic courses available.

Tim:

Which "classic" courses would that be, that are "available?" Names, please. The clear trend with majors, esp. the US Open, is that the championship is moving away from classic courses (presumably TCC at Brookline, WFoot, Shinnecock) because the clubs don't want the hassle of hosting it.

Here's a list, pick one, any one would be better than that putt putt course:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/golf-courses/2009-05/100_greatestgolfcourses

Tim,

What was "putt putt" about Chamber Bay?  The fact that there were multiple slopes that fed the ball in the general direction of the hole?  What about the multiple slopes that fed the ball away from the hole?  Please give us your take.

Variety is the spice of life and golf.  It was great to see a course play like CB after seeing infinite courses on TV (and in person) play like a game of darts.  Players had to assess the course, the ground, and the effect it was going to have on the ball.  The conditioning allowed them great variety in their shot selection.  I can't see a problem with that.  And in the end, the best player triumphed.

And the fact that Rich Harvest is on the list your posted (let alone #46) removes all its credibility...

[Tim Leahy]

When do they put in the windmills and the clown's mouth?
I can't believe they are going to hold a US Open there with so many great classic courses available.

Tim:

Which "classic" courses would that be, that are "available?" Names, please. The clear trend with majors, esp. the US Open, is that the championship is moving away from classic courses (presumably TCC at Brookline, WFoot, Shinnecock) because the clubs don't want the hassle of hosting it.

Here's a list, pick one, any one would be better than that putt putt course:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/golf-courses/2009-05/100_greatestgolfcourses

Tim,

What was "putt putt" about Chamber Bay?  The fact that there were multiple slopes that fed the ball in the general direction of the hole?  What about the multiple slopes that fed the ball away from the hole?  Please give us your take.

Variety is the spice of life and golf.  It was great to see a course play like CB after seeing infinite courses on TV (and in person) play like a game of darts.  Players had to assess the course, the ground, and the effect it was going to have on the ball.  The conditioning allowed them great variety in their shot selection.  I can't see a problem with that.  And in the end, the best player triumphed.

And the fact that Rich Harvest is on the list your posted (let alone #46) removes all its credibility...

The US Open is supposed to be a game of darts, its the US Open, if you want groundgame watch the British Open.

[George Freeman]

When do they put in the windmills and the clown's mouth?
I can't believe they are going to hold a US Open there with so many great classic courses available.

Tim:

Which "classic" courses would that be, that are "available?" Names, please. The clear trend with majors, esp. the US Open, is that the championship is moving away from classic courses (presumably TCC at Brookline, WFoot, Shinnecock) because the clubs don't want the hassle of hosting it.

Here's a list, pick one, any one would be better than that putt putt course:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/golf-courses/2009-05/100_greatestgolfcourses

Tim,

What was "putt putt" about Chamber Bay?  The fact that there were multiple slopes that fed the ball in the general direction of the hole?  What about the multiple slopes that fed the ball away from the hole?  Please give us your take.

Variety is the spice of life and golf.  It was great to see a course play like CB after seeing infinite courses on TV (and in person) play like a game of darts.  Players had to assess the course, the ground, and the effect it was going to have on the ball.  The conditioning allowed them great variety in their shot selection.  I can't see a problem with that.  And in the end, the best player triumphed.

And the fact that Rich Harvest is on the list your posted (let alone #46) removes all its credibility...

The US Open is supposed to be a game of darts, its the US Open, if you want groundgame watch the British Open.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one Tim!

[Phil McDade]

Tim:

Re. your list:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/golf-courses/2009-05/100_greatestgolfcourses

1. Augusta -- already has a major; closed in June; 2. Pine Valley -- doesn't want it; hard to get spectators around the place; 3. Shinnecock -- has held 3 Opens; word is the members don't want the hassle anymore (but should hold the Open again if they so desire); 4. Cypress -- USGA won't hold it due to membership practices? too short for today's (and tomorrow's) players; 5. Oakmont -- held it recently; back again in 2016; 6. Pebble -- just held it; likely to again; 7. Merion East -- has held it before; set for 2013; 8. Winged Foot West -- has held several Opens; see # 3 re. membership concerns; greens look crappy on TV; 9. Fishers -- see #4 re. length; logistical concerns getting that many fans on a boat across the Sound; 10. Seminole -- abhors publicity of nearly any kind; won't like the idea of public "patrons" trampling on the course; closed in June? Membership unlikely to support; 11. Oak Hill East -- likely Open contender down the road, but may have aligned itself too closely with PGA; 12. Chicago GC -- too short, too easy; 13. Sand Hills -- too remote; 14. Pac Dunes -- too short; 15. NGLA -- too short; membership likely thinks too big of a tournament (they take their tournament crowds in small doses, like the upcoming Walker Cup); membership also probably opposed to the idea of slumming with its neighbors next door by lowering itself to hosting the Open; 16. Crystal Downs -- intriguing, but too short; 17. Wade Hampton -- It's a Fazio, which would cause group apoplexy among the GCA crowd; I know little of this course, so this is a maybe; a shadow of Pinehurst 2?; 18. TCC -- doesn't want it anymore; turned away chance at hosting historic 2013 Open (Ouimet 100th anniversary); 19. Muirfield Village -- regularly chewed up by the pros at the Memorial; not tough enough. 20. Medinah -- USGA would have to work with Cook Co. again, a probable non-starter; ties to PGA/Ryder Cup make Open prospects poor.

21. Prairie Dunes -- too short; recently hosted Women's Open; 22. Whistling Straits -- a good candidate save for its long-term association with PGA; Herbie Kohler lusts for the Open, however, so a darkhorse; 23. Oakland Hills -- see Medinah/WStraits PGA ties; but a candidate down the road; 24. Victoria National -- no way to get spectators around; USGA might balk at key role in hosting the tournament likely to be played by VN national member John Kavanaugh; 25. Ocean Course -- tied to PGA; 26. Olympic -- gets the Open in a few years; 27.  Club at Black Rock -- Is this the course with the goofy moveable green? Now that's clown's mouth golf; 28. Castle Pines -- couldn't keep a PGA Tour stop; pros might get mixed up thinking Open played under Stableford rules; 29. Bethpage Black -- hosted two recent Opens; too rainy; NY may or may not want it back; 30. Baltusrol (Lower) -- gets PGA soon; not as good as Upper, according to Matt Ward; 31. Riveria -- too short; 32. Pinehurst 2 -- gets the Open in four years; 33. Bandon Dunes -- too short; 34. Southern Hills -- cast its lot with the PGA; maybe too short by time next Open opportunity comes along; too darn hot in June anyway; 35. The Golf Club -- very private; doubt tiny membership wants it; 36. San Francisco -- the Seminole of the West Coast; the place hates publicity so much it's hard to get a decent picture thread on GCA; 37. Butler -- a very strong candidate, save for that minor gender thing; 38. Honors Course -- Bogey would have to host; maybe not a bad thing. I know little of the course; Tennessee's first Open! 39. Sebanack -- gets a USGA tryout with the Women's Open soon; a definite maybe; 40. Inverness -- has held it in the past, but now past its prime; only Seniors need apply for their Open.

41. Shadow Creek -- June in Vegas a non-starter; more manufactured that WStraits and Ch. Bay; Fazio connection hurts as well; 42. Canyata --- too new; 43. Olympia Fields -- see #20 re. Cook County; viewed (unfairly) as too easy; Terry Lavin likely wants control (again!) of set-up, which could prove problematic; 44. The Quarry -- Another Fazio; doesn't he get it? Gotta be in a desert, which doesn't help chances; 45. TPC Sawgrass -- already has a Tour stop; narrowing further for USGA Open specs would eliminate fairways; 46. Rich Harvest -- didn't hold up as well as an interesting course compared to Ch. Bay when I viewed Solheim Cup last year; Chicago GCAers whose views I respect suggest it's over-rated. 47. LA North -- if the membership had wanted an Open, it would've hosted one by now. Therefore, one must conclude...; 48. Kinloch -- is it near anything? I hear very good things about this course; I could support; Vinny Giles US Senior Am champ (at the Bev!), so good USGA connections; 49. Arcadia Bluffs -- not universally praised; seems like a lesser version of Ch. Bay; unlikley to be as F&F as CBay in June; 50. Shoal Creek -- USGA won't like leftover controversy from PGA there re. membership (blue coats have elephantine memories); just got some kind of name tournament; Alabama in June -- really? 51. Spyglass -- too short; a shadow of its neighbors; already a stop on the Tour; 52. Milwaukee -- I like it! Great US Mid-Am site in '08; probably a tad too short for the big boys; very quiet course that sticks to it's Brigadoon schedule -- pops up every 20 years to host some kind of important but low-key championship; 53. Garden City -- too short and probably too easy; 54. Cherry Hills -- maybe; can it hang on for another 50 years to host the centennial of Arnie's victory? 55. Forest Highlands -- is this the one Doak liked in the Confidential Guide? Seems a bit short at the altitude of Flagstaff. 56. Double Eagle -- egh? Said to be OK, but has it hosted any tourney of significance? 57. Pete Dye GC -- Would the USGA ever really take the Open to W. Virginia? 58. Kittansett -- too short; traffic nightmares, I'm assuming. 59. Dallas National -- too hot in June; 60. Peachtree -- has seen better days? Still Open worthy?

Of the remaining 40, Congressional (66) gets it next year, but only Aronimink (76) seems a possible legitimate contender.

[Garland Bayley]

Phil,

You crack me up! 

[RJ_Daley]

Yikes Phil !!! 

[Garland Bayley]

I thinks Phil's message to the municipalities out there is that if you build it, the USGA will come calling.

The 2030 US Open at Tom Doak's Detroit Shores Municipal Golf Course has a certain ring to it.

[Tim Bert]

Tim:

Re. your list:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/golf-courses/2009-05/100_greatestgolfcourses

1. Augusta -- already has a major; closed in June; 2. Pine Valley -- doesn't want it; hard to get spectators around the place; 3. Shinnecock -- has held 3 Opens; word is the members don't want the hassle anymore (but should hold the Open again if they so desire); 4. Cypress -- USGA won't hold it due to membership practices? too short for today's (and tomorrow's) players; 5. Oakmont -- held it recently; back again in 2016; 6. Pebble -- just held it; likely to again; 7. Merion East -- has held it before; set for 2013; 8. Winged Foot West -- has held several Opens; see # 3 re. membership concerns; greens look crappy on TV; 9. Fishers -- see #4 re. length; logistical concerns getting that many fans on a boat across the Sound; 10. Seminole -- abhors publicity of nearly any kind; won't like the idea of public "patrons" trampling on the course; closed in June? Membership unlikely to support; 11. Oak Hill East -- likely Open contender down the road, but may have aligned itself too closely with PGA; 12. Chicago GC -- too short, too easy; 13. Sand Hills -- too remote; 14. Pac Dunes -- too short; 15. NGLA -- too short; membership likely thinks too big of a tournament (they take their tournament crowds in small doses, like the upcoming Walker Cup); membership also probably opposed to the idea of slumming with its neighbors next door by lowering itself to hosting the Open; 16. Crystal Downs -- intriguing, but too short; 17. Wade Hampton -- It's a Fazio, which would cause group apoplexy among the GCA crowd; I know little of this course, so this is a maybe; a shadow of Pinehurst 2?; 18. TCC -- doesn't want it anymore; turned away chance at hosting historic 2013 Open (Ouimet 100th anniversary); 19. Muirfield Village -- regularly chewed up by the pros at the Memorial; not tough enough. 20. Medinah -- USGA would have to work with Cook Co. again, a probable non-starter; ties to PGA/Ryder Cup make Open prospects poor.

21. Prairie Dunes -- too short; recently hosted Women's Open; 22. Whistling Straits -- a good candidate save for its long-term association with PGA; Herbie Kohler lusts for the Open, however, so a darkhorse; 23. Oakland Hills -- see Medinah/WStraits PGA ties; but a candidate down the road; 24. Victoria National -- no way to get spectators around; USGA might balk at key role in hosting the tournament likely to be played by VN national member John Kavanaugh; 25. Ocean Course -- tied to PGA; 26. Olympic -- gets the Open in a few years; 27.  Club at Black Rock -- Is this the course with the goofy moveable green? Now that's clown's mouth golf; 28. Castle Pines -- couldn't keep a PGA Tour stop; pros might get mixed up thinking Open played under Stableford rules; 29. Bethpage Black -- hosted two recent Opens; too rainy; NY may or may not want it back; 30. Baltusrol (Lower) -- gets PGA soon; not as good as Upper, according to Matt Ward; 31. Riveria -- too short; 32. Pinehurst 2 -- gets the Open in four years; 33. Bandon Dunes -- too short; 34. Southern Hills -- cast its lot with the PGA; maybe too short by time next Open opportunity comes along; too darn hot in June anyway; 35. The Golf Club -- very private; doubt tiny membership wants it; 36. San Francisco -- the Seminole of the West Coast; the place hates publicity so much it's hard to get a decent picture thread on GCA; 37. Butler -- a very strong candidate, save for that minor gender thing; 38. Honors Course -- Bogey would have to host; maybe not a bad thing. I know little of the course; Tennessee's first Open! 39. Sebanack -- gets a USGA tryout with the Women's Open soon; a definite maybe; 40. Inverness -- has held it in the past, but now past its prime; only Seniors need apply for their Open.

41. Shadow Creek -- June in Vegas a non-starter; more manufactured that WStraits and Ch. Bay; Fazio connection hurts as well; 42. Canyata --- too new; 43. Olympia Fields -- see #20 re. Cook County; viewed (unfairly) as too easy; Terry Lavin likely wants control (again!) of set-up, which could prove problematic; 44. The Quarry -- Another Fazio; doesn't he get it? Gotta be in a desert, which doesn't help chances; 45. TPC Sawgrass -- already has a Tour stop; narrowing further for USGA Open specs would eliminate fairways; 46. Rich Harvest -- didn't hold up as well as an interesting course compared to Ch. Bay when I viewed Solheim Cup last year; Chicago GCAers whose views I respect suggest it's over-rated. 47. LA North -- if the membership had wanted an Open, it would've hosted one by now. Therefore, one must conclude...; 48. Kinloch -- is it near anything? I hear very good things about this course; I could support; Vinny Giles US Senior Am champ (at the Bev!), so good USGA connections; 49. Arcadia Bluffs -- not universally praised; seems like a lesser version of Ch. Bay; unlikley to be as F&F as CBay in June; 50. Shoal Creek -- USGA won't like leftover controversy from PGA there re. membership (blue coats have elephantine memories); just got some kind of name tournament; Alabama in June -- really? 51. Spyglass -- too short; a shadow of its neighbors; already a stop on the Tour; 52. Milwaukee -- I like it! Great US Mid-Am site in '08; probably a tad too short for the big boys; very quiet course that sticks to it's Brigadoon schedule -- pops up every 20 years to host some kind of important but low-key championship; 53. Garden City -- too short and probably too easy; 54. Cherry Hills -- maybe; can it hang on for another 50 years to host the centennial of Arnie's victory? 55. Forest Highlands -- is this the one Doak liked in the Confidential Guide? Seems a bit short at the altitude of Flagstaff. 56. Double Eagle -- egh? Said to be OK, but has it hosted any tourney of significance? 57. Pete Dye GC -- Would the USGA ever really take the Open to W. Virginia? 58. Kittansett -- too short; traffic nightmares, I'm assuming. 59. Dallas National -- too hot in June; 60. Peachtree -- has seen better days? Still Open worthy?

Of the remaining 40, Congressional (66) gets it next year, but only Aronimink (76) seems a possible legitimate contender.

I don't think Bandon Dunes is too short.  It stretches over 7,000 yards and I think there is room to back it up further if needed.  In any event, it is longer than Pebble Beach.  If you are going to go through the motions, put some effort into it.   

[Phil McDade]

Tim:

Well, the card of the course has BDunes at 6,700+, and even if you stretch that to 7,000, isn't that too short for a late 20XX Open, given: a) technological improvements likely in the next decade; and b) the traditional F&F conditions there? Similar to altitude, one must consider the playing conditions of the course when accounting for length, which is why I think the comparison to PBeach is not an apt one; PB doesn't play as a true links, save for the oceanside holes on a truly windy day (ala Kite's final round). I was struck by how long CBay played some of its holes for the US Am, but assumed Davis knew what he was doing because of the very fast/firm conditions there.

[Craig Van Egmond]

> 34. Southern Hills -- cast its lot with the PGA; maybe too short by time next Open opportunity comes along; too darn hot in June anyway


Man, if you think its too hot in June, you should be here in August for the PGA. 

[Steve Lang]

  49. Arcadia Bluffs -- not universally praised; seems like a lesser version of Ch. Bay; unlikley to be as F&F as CBay in June;

Completely wrong on last two points

[Tim Bert]

Tim:

Well, the card of the course has BDunes at 6,700+, and even if you stretch that to 7,000, isn't that too short for a late 20XX Open, given: a) technological improvements likely in the next decade; and b) the traditional F&F conditions there? Similar to altitude, one must consider the playing conditions of the course when accounting for length, which is why I think the comparison to PBeach is not an apt one; PB doesn't play as a true links, save for the oceanside holes on a truly windy day (ala Kite's final round). I was struck by how long CBay played some of its holes for the US Am, but assumed Davis knew what he was doing because of the very fast/firm conditions there.

I am pretty certain that the card listed tees over 7000 the first time I visited. Perhaps they have taken the true tips off the card. Anyway, I wasn't talking "stretching" to 7,000. I was talking about taking the 7,100 or so tees and stretching them a few more hundred yards. I don't understand why you didn't just play the "remote" card which trumps any and all discussion of the course anyway. Also I didn't check if you are referencing the same list that Tim was linking but if you are I find it strange that Tim made the point about the US Open happening at a classic layout and then referred everyone here to a list cluttered with modern gems.

[Phil McDade]

Tim:

I'm not totally convinced Bandon is too remote. It probably is, but there is a modest amount of infrastructure there, and Coos Bay could use the boost to its economy. It's doubtful, but perhaps not a crazy proposition 10 years from now if the Bandon resort continues to grow in popularity. I think Bandon is a notch more accessible than Ballyneal or Sand Hills, both of which are truly in the middle of nothing.

[Richard Choi]

I don't think the roads and local infrastructure can handle 40,000/day crowd at Bandon. It is just too far from Portland (4 hours without traffic) and I am not sure if Portland is big enough of a metropolitan area to support US Open.

CB will have people coming from Seattle (1 hour) AND Portland (2 hours).

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