[Adrian_Stiff]

Mike - Amateurs not professionals, bit of a silly statement. I was watching the semi finals, I am sure you will agree, amateurs at that level have the highest level  of golf skills equal to most golf professionals.
I care what the pro's think. If you are in the golf business you care what the pro's think. It is not about darts, but it is about fairness. The design of a golf course,the maintenance, the set up, the running of is a fine art and very easy to bugger up.
I am gonna stick my head on the line here and say they wont play the US open at Chambers Bay with the course like that.

[Garland Bayley]

...
One added benefit of the long drive down to Bandon is that it gives your legs time to recover from the difficult walk.  

Hey Tim,

I hope you saw Dick Daley called BS on your walking assessment.

[Garland Bayley]

Mike - Amateurs not professionals, bit of a silly statement. I was watching the semi finals, I am sure you will agree, amateurs at that level have the highest level  of golf skills equal to most golf professionals.
I care what the pro's think. If you are in the golf business you care what the pro's think. It is not about darts, but it is about fairness. The design of a golf course,the maintenance, the set up, the running of is a fine art and very easy to bugger up.
I am gonna stick my head on the line here and say they wont play the US open at Chambers Bay with the course like that.

Fairness? Did each competitor play a different course and then match scores? What are you talking about?

How many great courses in the world don't have a green or two where if you put the ball in the wrong place you have to play something that will leave the green surface to access the pin position selected for a top level tournament?

I would suggest that Mike Davis has been at Chambers Bay for months and months and knows how to set it up for a top level tournament so that the players have to intelligently choose their shots to do well. I would suggest that Mike Davis will set up the US Open very similarly how he has for the US Am, and he won't be taking suggestions from cheap seats across the pond from people that have never seen the place.

Sorry, but sometimes a feller just has to pull a Mucci on ya.

[Garland Bayley]

Adrian,

Another opinion on the USGA's ability and flexibility in setting up the course.

OK folks, I just got back from spending all day at the course. I am BEAT! But here is my report.

First, let me answer Scott's question.

I keep hearing how difficult CB is playing, and you reiterated that again with the bloodbath statement.  In your opinion, is this a positive or a negative for the USGA as well as CB?  You've got the best amateur players on the planet making the trip and the average score is over 80.  Seems like something's amiss to me. 

Scott, now that I have seen it in person, I can safely say Chambers Bay is USGA's wet dream come true. The course and the setup is so flexible, USGA can basically dial in whatever number they want the field to shoot. And you don't have to rely on any adverse weather for tough conditions. Even with no wind, you can setup the course to play extremely tough or extremely easy.

Take a look at today's example. After Sat/Sun bloodbath, Mike Davis showed his gentler side today. The fairways and greens were watered heavily overnight. For the morning at least, the greens were very receptive. They also moved up a bunch of tees. #10 played as a drivable par 4 at about 320 yards. On #5 they used the short green on the left which also made it drivable at about 310. So, you had three, count’em, THREE drivable par 4’s on the course (including #12). When is the last time you saw that at a USGA event?  Also, #4, par 5, was shortened to play at about 530 yards and with the firm fairways, most players were hitting 6 to 4 iron into the green and birdies were aplenty.

I believe the course was only about 7200 yards today and played about 6 to 7 strokes easier than it did over the weekend (a sentiment shared by the players). There were birdies everywhere, and I dare say the players had a good time today.

But that does not mean the course was just a pushover. The true links nature of the course really played havoc with the players. Here are a couple of prime examples.

During the morning playoffs to determine the final 6 players, I was standing at the 2nd green. The green slopes right to left with a sideboard on the right side and a falloff on left. The pin was on the very left plateau about half way up the green. Time and time again, players tried to work the ball right to left on their approach, but all of the balls landed on the right side, on the green which meant that it was not going to get enough roll to the left as there is a small slope. And they all ended up putting from about 50 to 60 feet away and half of them ended up three putting (once it goes over the ridge, it goes downhill).

The actual correct play is to hit it about halfway up the sideboard on the right and use it to propel the ball to the left side. It is a REALLY easy shot as you have a big margin for error, but nobody dared to aim that far away from the pin.

Another example - I was marshaling at the par 4, 16th hole towards the end of the day. We had an unusual wind at the end of the day as it was blowing from the north (about 10 to 15 mph) which is a strong tail wind for what is already a pretty short hole. The closer to the bunkers on the right you go with your drive, you have more straightforward approach. However, if you miss to the left there is a big downhill ridge between you and the green. About half of the players had an approach shot from this angle. The correct shot is to aim about 40 to 50 yard short of the green, let it bounce on the flat part of the ridge and then let it roll down to the pin in the middle of the pin.

But nobody, I mean not a single player played the correct shot. They either flew it on the green and bounced in to the sand on the opposite side, or flew it too far and end up in the collection area on the left of the green, or (as most did) land about 10 to 20 yards short of the green on the left, hit the downslope and shot across the green (in the bunker). They had about 10 to 15 yard long big flat landing area about 40 yards short of the green, but instead they kept trying to hit a shot that required landing within about 2 yards of the target!!! This one kid had about 140 yards to the green. I can hear him conversing with the caddie and both agree that they needed to carry about 120 yards, while I was going crazy (silently) saying to myself “NO! you need 100 yards max, not 120!” What was even more amusing was the caddie shouting out “That is not fair!” after ball ended up in the bunker on the opposite side just like I thought it would. I think a designer giving you a 10 to 15 yard target to hit from about 100 yards out it more than fair. Just because you chose to hit a more difficult shot, does not make it unfair.

This was going on all over the course. If you hit the correct places on the fairway, they hit a fairly straight forward approach shot and had a good shot at birdie. But when they were out of position, it required creativity to get it close and these players failed to do so time and time again. Nothing makes these players more uncomfortable than forcing them to shoot away from the pin, but that is EXACTLY what is required at Chambers Bay.

And I think that is just awesome.

And as to that “perfect” 4 iron to the 9th green... If you are hitting a 4 iron to that green, then either you are about a short a hitter as Garland or you are aiming for the back of the green by the cart path. For most players, that is a 6 iron shot landing just short of the green and letting the sideboard on the left and the contour of the green feed the ball to the middle. Almost every par three green at Chambers requires you to hit short of the green to hold right now and there is room to do so (may be except for #15, but they moved the tee up for that), if you choose not to play it correctly, you deserve whatever result you receive.

[Garland Bayley]

... The current conditioning is disappointing, but to be expected, given the type of grass and the time of the year, but I'm quite sure that the USGA agronomy team will work overtime to make sure that it's in great shape for the open.  ...

Can't imagine what this means unless you want ANGC. It has been almost unanimous praise for the fast and firm conditioning, until this little comment.

Nope, I'm talking about the big chunks of green where they had to replant sod.  The F&F looks great to moi, but I'm not sure if conditions in June will resemble those of August in that department.

Terry,

An explanation of what would appear to be your incorrect assessment of the condition.

But back to the turf sward... I'm wondering where they nurseried the many square and rectangular patches of what I assume is the same fescue cultivar for the still ungrown-in portions of some of the greens.  It looks like they had to come up with a sizeable amount of patches.

RJ, they had to patch in some turf for some problem areas, but that is not what you are seeing on TV. They also cover the area that they are trying to grow with a large blanket overnight. I believe it helps with moisture retension and it leaves the area very green and that is what you are seeing on TV.

[Sean Leary]

Garland,

If you watched yesterday you could see the swatches he is talking about. Not the dark colored areas Rich is talking about. 7 green is an example.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

If you watched yesterday you could see the swatches he is talking about. Not the dark colored areas Rich is talking about. 7 green is an example.

The only bit I will watch of this was an hour on Friday. They were past 7 when I saw the course.
With 7 being against the "problem" hill, I could understand either explanation. Either they had to repair, or they were taking extra protective steps.

[Sean Leary]

Garland,

If you watched yesterday you could see the swatches he is talking about. Not the dark colored areas Rich is talking about. 7 green is an example.

The only bit I will watch of this was an hour on Friday. They were past 7 when I saw the course.
With 7 being against the "problem" hill, I could understand either explanation. Either they had to repair, or they were taking extra protective steps.

Agreed. 5 years from now the course and brass will be much more mature.

I think they can get the course in June close to how it is playing now. I would doubt they could get it like it played in the practice rounds, but I think that might have been too much anyway.

[Sean Leary]

I'm not reading any hate. What I do feel is that there are certain aspects of the design and construction that could've been better.
These aspects do not ruin anything. They just are not as thoughtful as they could've been. Precluding CB from entering the great category.

Adam I am pretty much in your camp on this one.... from my TV seat and watching certain ball reactions I feel is kinda 75% good 25% not so good. With a different eye perhaps it could be 100%.
Watching someone have to hole a 40 footer to tie and force a play off and the putt misses the green wide is kinda weird. I feel the use of the slopes to roll the back back into the segment is overdone as well. I don't think you find this on the old fashioned links as often although perhaps that is what will give CB is uniqueness. I feel that the pro's will hate this course. On the UK TV last night they remarked its on steroids and all it needs is a windmill. That aside I think a lot of it is good. What do the other archies think? What are the greens stimping for the US-AM?

I almost have to go along with the view of UK tv on the 'windmill' aspect. I have never been there so I am not going to say too much but I got bored very quickly the other night watching it. The green complexes reminded me of a a big pinball machine. The ball just bouncing in and around off the sides. Far too many pins seemed to be in bowls where as long as you missed the pin on the correct side you were going to end up close. The condition of the course looks great, brown and fast but when I watched a player chip from 10 yards off the green and he had to aim away from the green to get it close........that was me done.

Dean,

This has always been my main criticism of the course, other than the 9th hole. Peter Pittock mentioned it above or in the other thread as well. Too many sideboards and backboards for my preference.

I played with someone yesterday who having played CB a couple of times in the last 2 years and wasn't a huge fan, mainly because of the greens. He played it again a couple of weeks ago under faster conditions and it changed his whole view of the golf course. Just loved it.

Now if I can just get 3 tee lowered, and 8 and 9 redone to my liking it becomes a Doak 8-9 in my book.. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Garland - I do think CB has some good bits and the flexability of the set up with shortening some holes is a big plus. Just really one aspect I am not sold on and that is .... a lot of the green complexes gather from one or more sides too violently and often the only way to get to these areas is via some obscure 'off piste' route... from TV yesterdsay I am seeing some balls bound around these side slopes and come back in circular fashion, and a watching short chips with very oblique routes to get it close, bunker shots played into banks then roll back into the segment. I am looking forward to watching the final tonight (to see the course).

[Richard Choi]

Adrian, many of the greens have sideboards or are punchbowl with steep sides to keep the shots within the green surface. If they weren't there, it would be almost impossible to stop some shots when it is playing fast.

Personally, I find them a lot of fun. It makes it easier for high handicappers while makes it tougher for top flite players like these.

And if you think these greens are goofy, you should see Ballyneal greens...

[Tim Bert]

I finally found some time to pick up the action on TV this afternoon.  The course looked like it was playing great for these guys.  Fun to watch the drives roll around the green on #12.

My wife walked into the room while I was watching and I said: "This is the course we played on our way to Bandon this spring."  She replied, "Did you like it?"  I said, "Yes, I did."  To which she replied, "It looks like something you'd like."  So, I took it one further trying to engage my wife in her first golf course design discussion and said, "What do you mean?"  Her response: "It isn't very pretty.  You don't usually like the pretty ones, right?"

She wasn't able to go on and define what about the course wasn't pretty. I was expecting her to say something about the brown, but she didn't.  Just then the guys in the booth popped up with the visual of the Sound in the background.  She closed out our discussion with... "Oh I didn't know it was on the water.  Maybe it is pretty."

[Richard Choi]

Tim, my wife walked it all day and I don't think she found it pretty either She definitely has no desire to play it. Oh, well.

I would also agree with Tim that, if you have a choice between Bandon and Chambers, it is a no brainer. You have 4 courses just like CB at Bandon. 4 always beats 1 in my book. However, if you can swing it or if you are in town, CB is a must play. I just feel very lucky that I have a course like CB within 1 hour from my house. I love Bandon, but 1 hour drive beats 7 hour drive.

[Ryan Admussen]

Tim, my wife walked it all day and I don't think she found it pretty either She definitely has no desire to play it. Oh, well.

I would also agree with Tim that, if you have a choice between Bandon and Chambers, it is a no brainer. You have 4 courses just like CB at Bandon. 4 always beats 1 in my book. However, if you can swing it or if you are in town, CB is a must play. I just feel very lucky that I have a course like CB within 1 hour from my house. I love Bandon, but 1 hour drive beats 7 hour drive.

Richard, have a few questions for you..

Heading down to Bandon at the end of October, have a few extra days and want to squeeze CB in, will weather conditions be similar to Bandon at that time of year? Do you know what the October fees are? They only have June-September listed. How busy is the course that time of the year?

[Richard Choi]

The weather is going to be pretty similar to Bandon, rain is most likely with highs in the 50's. If you get lucky, you may get some sun and temperature in the 60's. I believe the almanac is predicting that it is going to be wet winter.

The rate for out of towners in Oct is probably going to by $125 in the weekend, though they do have special deals every now and then, especially during winter. You will not have ANY problems booking your rounds in October.

[Dean Stokes]

Adrian, many of the greens have sideboards or are punchbowl with steep sides to keep the shots within the green surface. If they weren't there, it would be almost impossible to stop some shots when it is playing fast.

Personally, I find them a lot of fun. It makes it easier for high handicappers while makes it tougher for top flite players like these.

And if you think these greens are goofy, you should see Ballyneal greens...

Richard, how does it make it easier for high handicappers but harder for good players? If it's easier for bad players it is definitely easier for good players. As for the need for steep sides to stop the ball on the green that is nonsense.......I have played many links courses that are harder and faster than CB and they do not have 'pinball' greens where the ball cannot miss. Watching golf there on Thursday night bored me to turn it off....it may be a fine golf course tee to green, I have never been there, but the green complexes look like they need work to make a sloppy approach shots more penal.

[Richard Choi]

Dean, the sideboards make it easier for high handicappers and harder for tour-level players because they play at different green speeds.

When the course is setup for regular weekend hackers on most days, the greens are slow enough that if you miss the balls to the correct side, there is a sideboard to feed the ball back to the green. Also, if you miss the ball to the low side, you can chip up hard to the opposite side knowing that the sideboard will catch the ball and bring it back to the green.

However, once the green speed is running 11 or 12, it is VERY VERY diifficult to correctly guess how the balls are going to behave when coming off the sideboard. If you are coming from a wrong angle, hitting the sideboard will shoot the ball across the green off to the other side. Even if you are chipping from the other side, because of the unpredictable nature of the roll off the sideboard, getting the ball within the 10 feet of the hole is going to be extremely difficult. It may be easy to bogey, but it will be very hard to birdie it.

I saw time and time again players during the tournament stay away from the sideboard like a plague because they had no idea what it was going to do to their ball. Chung and Huilein used the sideboard as well as anybody out there all week. And it is a big reason why they were there on Sunday.

[William_G]

Wow, you are not very cool Garland.  Not all golfers are.

Off to camping with my kids to spread the love and share the love.

Let's see your description of yourself is "a giver, gentleman, and scholar". Your description of me is "not very cool". When you want to get over the self adulation and name calling and get down to facts, let me know.

Hey just trying to to extend my hand over the bulletin board, sorry.  You were a little abrupt with your opinion, thanks.

[William_G]

Garland, I'm sorry, but you guys are losing it. Can't take a joke about being biased, homer, eg. pay or smoking crack.

I didn't see a emoticon. When you see Richard telling it like it is and someone says he is biased, it sounds like "cyberbullying" to me.

I have my facts please present your facts and stop the merry go round, thanks. The loudest voice will not win.

Unless I am recalling the wrong person, I presented the facts to you earlier, but you don't seem to understand them. So what are your "facts"?

I am a giver, gentleman and a scholar, but this is off the charts for unbiased discussion from biased people.

Define scholar.

This is reason #5 why there is no love for CB.

There is no love for CB? Didn't you read Tiger's post? Haven't you been around here to see all the love from the very beginning for CB? There's another place you need to get your "facts".

Just saying and I'm not a typist.

Thanks.

Greta weekend with the fam. Almost end of summer and football!

Great golf this week at CB, wish I could have been there.

I will telegraph my jokes from here on out, sorry. If Richard is biased its not a felony 4COL? If I like something I promote it as well.

Facts are facts. Regarding the CB I've heard many things, and am always listening. What is the best source of info regarding how CB became what it is, Pierce County?

Anyone want to play golf at Trails and Pacific this weekend or talk about golf and architecture? Call me at my office... 5414841877

Scholar is defined as someone who is always learning, like I am here learing how to talk on the board, etc...

No love?, There is love for CB, but not as much as some would like, and when they don't feel the love they kind of react with a little hate or irritation.

Sorry to keep it goiing with BT but there isn't much love there either, primarily because its the hardest course there and also because of the walk, and no ocean frontage...

Sometimes its best to agree to disagree with how difficult it may be to walk CB while carrying your clubs.

Now on to a great class of wine, while everyone could have opinions about that too, cheers!

[William_G]

Heading down to Bandon at the end of October, have a few extra days and want to squeeze CB in, will weather conditions be similar to Bandon at that time of year? [/quote]

FWIW, you could have a variety of weather conditions at the end of October, raining like a showerstall or sunny like you are dreaming it, live here, done that. It could be the same or different in Tacoma and Bandon. check out www.iloveoregon.com for weather for the southern oregon coast. 

[Garland Bayley]

...
Facts are facts. Regarding the CB I've heard many things, and am always listening. What is the best source of info regarding how CB became what it is, Pierce County?
...

"The best source of info regarding how CB became what it is" is RTJ II golf course architects. The designers that handled the project are Bruce Charlton and Jay Blasi. They published a brief article "Chambers Bay, USA" in Golf Architecture - A Worldwide Perspective, Vol 5, ed. Paul Daley about the course.

Jay Blasi (a member of this website) also hosted a group from the website for a preview information dissemination, discussion, question and answer, and round of golf for members of the website in May before they opened.

The discussion of that event can be found at http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,29473.0/ 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Having watched the final last night on TV I am still not convinced that this course will be liked by all (but that does not matter) and it will be the better players that are more likely to take it to task (which might matter). I do think there are some good bits though, perhaps it can be altered.

I have a few other worries for CB, the condition looked lets say uneasy. Fescue is a great grass for golf but its not without its problems, the main problem with fescue is that it hates to be cut short and if cut short for long periods it will die, by short I mean less than 6mm. Are these greens being maintained at that height? I suspect not. Fescue looks great as a monostand but looks **** when it gets invaded by poa, it also putts pretty **** as a two toner. At 6mm ithe height you should be maintaining it, the fescue will be pretty slow.  To maintain the fescue at the expens of the other grasses you must maintain the fescue with cutural methods at the different end of the spectrum to how you would maintain other grasses, that involves much lighter feeding and watering, when you couple that will golfers wearing the turf, its not easy to get repair when you have parts wearing out and parts that are okay. So my conclusion is Fescue is not suitable for greens on a golf course that expects large volume play or demanding play. Fescue works with low volume play where greens are mown twice a week and where a stimpmeter is a foreign word.

It would not suprise me to see these greens resurfaced to bentgrass.

[Sean_A]

Anytime I hear talk of goofy bounces on a keen course I become interested.  I can understand folks not being a fan of seemingly various and unpredictable kicks etc, but that is not what I saw on the telly.  To be honest this is usually the case; folks don't yet know a course so the bounces are "goofy".  Once they know the course it "plays like a links".  I think my issue is with the shaping making play away from the flag to obvious.  A bit more subtlety may have gone a long way here.  That said, the site is quite hilly so subtlety may be a tough ask.

Ciao

[Martin Toal]

I finally found some time to pick up the action on TV this afternoon.  The course looked like it was playing great for these guys.  Fun to watch the drives roll around the green on #12.

My wife walked into the room while I was watching and I said: "This is the course we played on our way to Bandon this spring."  She replied, "Did you like it?"  I said, "Yes, I did."  To which she replied, "It looks like something you'd like."  So, I took it one further trying to engage my wife in her first golf course design discussion and said, "What do you mean?"  Her response: "It isn't very pretty. You don't usually like the pretty ones, right?"

She wasn't able to go on and define what about the course wasn't pretty. I was expecting her to say something about the brown, but she didn't.  Just then the guys in the booth popped up with the visual of the Sound in the background.  She closed out our discussion with... "Oh I didn't know it was on the water.  Maybe it is pretty."

I hope you said, "Apart from you, of course, darling"

[Garland Bayley]

Having watched the final last night on TV I am still not convinced that this course will be liked by all (but that does not matter) and it will be the better players that are more likely to take it to task (which might matter). I do think there are some good bits though, perhaps it can be altered.

I have a few other worries for CB, the condition looked lets say uneasy. Fescue is a great grass for golf but its not without its problems, the main problem with fescue is that it hates to be cut short and if cut short for long periods it will die, by short I mean less than 6mm. Are these greens being maintained at that height? I suspect not. Fescue looks great as a monostand but looks **** when it gets invaded by poa, it also putts pretty **** as a two toner. At 6mm ithe height you should be maintaining it, the fescue will be pretty slow.  To maintain the fescue at the expens of the other grasses you must maintain the fescue with cutural methods at the different end of the spectrum to how you would maintain other grasses, that involves much lighter feeding and watering, when you couple that will golfers wearing the turf, its not easy to get repair when you have parts wearing out and parts that are okay. So my conclusion is Fescue is not suitable for greens on a golf course that expects large volume play or demanding play. Fescue works with low volume play where greens are mown twice a week and where a stimpmeter is a foreign word.

It would not suprise me to see these greens resurfaced to bentgrass.

That's it. Time to rip up that Bandon place and put in some real poa anna.
 

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