J. Hamilton Stutt

[Marty Bonnar]

Here's another UK thread that'll go to page 2 in a day, unless.......

Played the Lynedoch course at Murrayshall yesterday. 5400 yards of quirky, mad, hillside golf which was as much fun as I've had on a golf course in a good few years. I didn't need a cart or buggy - I needed a freekin SHERPA! The course climbs I'd guess a couple of hundred yards easy, but the views of Perthshire from the top are well worth the ropes, crampons and ice-axes.

Mr Stutt was a major figure in the forming of the British Institute and a son/grandson(?) of James Braid's main constructor. He designed both courses at Murrayshall with a gap of twenty years between. Quite an interesting CV, I think!

Anyone have more interesting info on Mr S?

cheers,
FBD.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Sadly he died a year or so ago.  I had thought of writing and requesting an inerview but...



Photo's?  To give it it's proper GCA nomenclature, sounds positively "Painswickian".

[Marty Bonnar]

Tony, I stupidly didn't take a camera, as I assumed it was going to be a bit of a yawn.
Colour me dim, but I couldn't have been more wrong.
The bunkering especially, fitted the layout so cleverly. In plan, they look a bit like flattened popcorn kernels, but from ground level, they were a joy. Beautifully 'fitted' into their 'surrounding mounding' (that's a phrase I'm going to copyright), they had an originality which really surprised. The third hole esp., a steep uphill par three (there's a LOT of par threes out there!), was a visual delight with some really befuddling perspective thing going on.
I hope La Nancy and another of our golfing couple pals will go for a dirty weekend up there again sometime soon. I promise I'll take pictures (of the golf course, not necessarily the dirty weekend... )
cheers,
FBD.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Marty - He was a nice man and did quite a few modern courses here in the South West that have staged tournaments. He did the orginal St Mellion, which was much better pre the Nicklaus addition, they used some of the holes to get out and back. I remember walking Woodbury Park when that was under construction, thats quite nice (Doak 5) perhaps that was Johns last course. Lanhydrock down at Bodmin was quite nice as well. Bramshott (1974), Meon Valley (1977), Gleddoch (1974), Fort William (1974), Woodham (1983), Ramsey (1964), Glenrothes (1958), Murrayshall (1981). Whilst his father was also an architect I have very little on himfor completed courses.

[Marty Bonnar]

Marty - He was a nice man and did quite a few modern courses here in the South West that have staged tournaments. He did the orginal St Mellion, which was much better pre the Nicklaus addition, they used some of the holes to get out and back. I remember walking Woodbury Park when that was under construction, thats quite nice (Doak 5) perhaps that was Johns last course. Lanhydrock down at Bodmin was quite nice as well. Bramshott (1974), Meon Valley (1977), Gleddoch (1974), Fort William (1974), Woodham (1983), Ramsey (1964), Glenrothes (1958), Murrayshall (1981). Whilst his father was also an architect I have very little on himfor completed courses.

Adrian!
I live about a drive, a fairway wood and a short iron from Glenrothes GC. Now that you've mentioned it, I think somewhere in the deep dark recesses of my whisky-addled brain, I knew Glenrothes was a 'Stutt'. I have to admit to hating Glenrothes. There's a couple of plain stupid holes played across a wide valley which could have been used so much better. Unfortunately, it's a muni which gets quite hammered through the year. All the Council courses in Fife are now being managed by a 'Trust', so we'll see if things improve.
cheers,
FBD.

[Sean_A]

Marty - He was a nice man and did quite a few modern courses here in the South West that have staged tournaments. He did the orginal St Mellion, which was much better pre the Nicklaus addition, they used some of the holes to get out and back. I remember walking Woodbury Park when that was under construction, thats quite nice (Doak 5) perhaps that was Johns last course. Lanhydrock down at Bodmin was quite nice as well. Bramshott (1974), Meon Valley (1977), Gleddoch (1974), Fort William (1974), Woodham (1983), Ramsey (1964), Glenrothes (1958), Murrayshall (1981). Whilst his father was also an architect I have very little on himfor completed courses.

Adrian

I look at Stutt (senior) as more of a construction man in an "understood" partnership with divided roles somewhat like Flynn and Toomey. I would love to know more about how he and Braid worked together.  I thnk Braid relied on Stutt an awful lot, probbaly in the same vein as Dr Mac and the British Golf Course Construction Company (or at least chaps from this company) and Colt with Feank Harris Bros.  

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean-I am sure you are right on this. I had someone work for me that worked for JHS and they spoke very fondly of Stutt snr as well so he must have been alive up to about 30 years ago.
Ardeer in Ayrshire I have as Stutt snr, but I also have that club founded in 1880,so the dates dont quite tie. Maybe new site. I also have Largs another in Ayrshire.
I have quite a list of courses for James Braid & John Stutt; Kingswood, Truro,Torquay,Tiverton, Middlesborough, Exeter, Arcot Hall, Clitheroe, Oswestry, Drayton Park, Scarborough North, Finchley, Peterbrough Milton, Mere, Orsett, Fulford Heath, Perranporth, Royal Blackheath as well it seems quite a bit was done.

[Tom_Doak]

Marty:

Nice to hear about a cool 5,400 yard course.  I wish we had a few near me.

P.S.  I enjoyed your line about needing a Sherpa so much that I borrowed it for my review of Strathpeffer Spa in The Confidential Guide, back in 1985.  Great minds think alike.

[David Lott]

I enjoyed your line about needing a Sherpa so much that I borrowed it

And twenty five years later he's returning it.

See, there is hope for mankind.

[Andrew Mitchell]

Sean-I am sure you are right on this. I had someone work for me that worked for JHS and they spoke very fondly of Stutt snr as well so he must have been alive up to about 30 years ago.
Ardeer in Ayrshire I have as Stutt snr, but I also have that club founded in 1880,so the dates dont quite tie. Maybe new site. I also have Largs another in Ayrshire.
I have quite a list of courses for James Braid & John Stutt; Kingswood, Truro,Torquay,Tiverton, Middlesborough, Exeter, Arcot Hall, Clitheroe, Oswestry, Drayton Park, Scarborough North, Finchley, Peterbrough Milton, Mere, Orsett, Fulford Heath, Perranporth, Royal Blackheath as well it seems quite a bit was done.

Adrian
I think you can add my home course Northcliffe to your list of Braid/Stutt courses.  Whilst delving around in the club archives several months ago I came across some correspondence between them.  I've been meaning to research it further but haven't had chance yet.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean-I am sure you are right on this. I had someone work for me that worked for JHS and they spoke very fondly of Stutt snr as well so he must have been alive up to about 30 years ago.
Ardeer in Ayrshire I have as Stutt snr, but I also have that club founded in 1880,so the dates dont quite tie. Maybe new site. I also have Largs another in Ayrshire.
I have quite a list of courses for James Braid & John Stutt; Kingswood, Truro,Torquay,Tiverton, Middlesborough, Exeter, Arcot Hall, Clitheroe, Oswestry, Drayton Park, Scarborough North, Finchley, Peterbrough Milton, Mere, Orsett, Fulford Heath, Perranporth, Royal Blackheath as well it seems quite a bit was done.

Adrian
I think you can add my home course Northcliffe to your list of Braid/Stutt courses.  Whilst delving around in the club archives several months ago I came across some correspondence between them.  I've been meaning to research it further but haven't had chance yet.

Andrew thanks, is that Scarborough North Cliff or the West Yorkshire course c 1921 I have that as Braid on his own, should I add Stutt to that one.

[Niall C]

Marty

I've played both the courses at Murryshall and enjoyed them but wouldn't go over board. If I remember the Lynedoch is the one with the driveable par 4 that has the parachute drop. You get vertigo just standing at the edge of the tee. Also with the 90 degree dog-leg par 4 or was that the other course ?

Old man Stutt - did he live not originally come from Paisley ? Certainly seem to recall that he did a lot of the courses round about Glasgow, and not just with Braid.

Niall

 

[Marty Bonnar]

Niall,
yes, the Lynedoch has a couple of 90 degree'ers. It's so tightly squeeeezed onto the property that I'd guess it was inevitable.
I loved the parachute hole. (Given I nearly drove the green, of course!)
Hope you're well. (I started new job in Dundee three short weeks ago, so been a bit out of circ.)
cheers,
MB.

[Niall C]

Niall,
yes, the Lynedoch has a couple of 90 degree'ers. It's so tightly squeeeezed onto the property that I'd guess it was inevitable.
I loved the parachute hole. (Given I nearly drove the green, of course!)
Hope you're well. (I started new job in Dundee three short weeks ago, so been a bit out of circ.)
cheers,
MB.

Marty

Great news about the job. Sounds like a great excuse for a game at Downfield or some other worthwhile venue. Time for another Scottish GCA outing !

Yes, I loved that parachute hole as well. Maybe time for a revisit.

Cheers

Niall

[Andrew Mitchell]

Adrian

It's the West Yorkshire one.  My understanding is that Braid and Vardon did the original course in the early 1920s and then Braid was called back in 1928 to reconfigure it following the acquisition of some new land.

I'll have to check the correspondence to see when Stutt was involved. From the routing plan I've seen I suspect it was the new course in 1928.

[Sean_A]

Sean-I am sure you are right on this. I had someone work for me that worked for JHS and they spoke very fondly of Stutt snr as well so he must have been alive up to about 30 years ago.
Ardeer in Ayrshire I have as Stutt snr, but I also have that club founded in 1880,so the dates dont quite tie. Maybe new site. I also have Largs another in Ayrshire.
I have quite a list of courses for James Braid & John Stutt; Kingswood, Truro,Torquay,Tiverton, Middlesborough, Exeter, Arcot Hall, Clitheroe, Oswestry, Drayton Park, Scarborough North, Finchley, Peterbrough Milton, Mere, Orsett, Fulford Heath, Perranporth, Royal Blackheath as well it seems quite a bit was done.

Adrian
I think you can add my home course Northcliffe to your list of Braid/Stutt courses.  Whilst delving around in the club archives several months ago I came across some correspondence between them.  I've been meaning to research it further but haven't had chance yet.

Andrew thanks, is that Scarborough North Cliff or the West Yorkshire course c 1921 I have that as Braid on his own, should I add Stutt to that one.

Adrian

Just to reiterate, the loose partnership of Braid & Stutt was Braid as designer and Stutt as Construction boss.  That isn't to say that Stutt didn't make design decisions, but just as the was with Dr Mac, Flynn and Colt, the construction guys don't get design credit even if the designers in question were very important contributors to the designs.  Braid (and the other gentlemen mentioned) is the archie of record unless Stutt secured separate contracts (which he did sometimes) for design work. 

Ciao

[Gary Slatter]

Martin:  can you play Braid Hills or ? on Friday Sep 3rd?   And get Rich Goodale to join us?    I'm playing the Old on 2nd and leave Saturday.

[Jim McCann]

I played one of Stutt's courses yesterday at Gleddoch in Renfrewshire, having played it five years ago and thought not much of it at the time -
probably because I'd been too engrossed in my own game during a Gents Open competition.

It's on the hillside of the Gleddoch Hotel property (owned by one of the big chains), overlooking Dumbarton on the other side of the Clyde,
and much in need of some TLC around the tees and bunkers but the greens - many of them raised and double or triple tiered - were absolutely fabulous, both in design and presentation.

The routing was wonderful, climbing higher and higher onto the moor before plunging back to the clubhouse at the doglegged 17th - one of
those courses where you come away pleasantly surprised, having had low expectations of it beforehand.

[Anthony Gray]

  Marty,

  Quirky and sherpa in your innitial post and no pictures. Shame on you. Who has some photos?

  Anthony

[Kalen Braley]

The aerial can be seen here...

I see at least one quirky hole with a massive tree in the middle of the fairway...

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Lynedoch+course&hl=en&ll=56.418863,-3.364434&spn=0.009091,0.022895&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=52.77044,93.779297&vpsrc=6&radius=15000&t=h&z=16

[Adrian_Stiff]

Marty - He was a nice man and did quite a few modern courses here in the South West that have staged tournaments. He did the orginal St Mellion, which was much better pre the Nicklaus addition, they used some of the holes to get out and back. I remember walking Woodbury Park when that was under construction, thats quite nice (Doak 5) perhaps that was Johns last course. Lanhydrock down at Bodmin was quite nice as well. Bramshott (1974), Meon Valley (1977), Gleddoch (1974), Fort William (1974), Woodham (1983), Ramsey (1964), Glenrothes (1958), Murrayshall (1981). Whilst his father was also an architect I have very little on himfor completed courses.

Adrian!
I live about a drive, a fairway wood and a short iron from Glenrothes GC. Now that you've mentioned it, I think somewhere in the deep dark recesses of my whisky-addled brain, I knew Glenrothes was a 'Stutt'. I have to admit to hating Glenrothes. There's a couple of plain stupid holes played across a wide valley which could have been used so much better. Unfortunately, it's a muni which gets quite hammered through the year. All the Council courses in Fife are now being managed by a 'Trust', so we'll see if things improve.
cheers,
FBD.

Marty.... Amazing I was there a week or so ago and looked at a piece of land and farm backing on to Glenrothes  GC called Goatmilk.

[Marty Bonnar]

...and you dion't look me up?
I am fair black-affronted (as we say in these here pairts)
next time you're here, you best be planning on meeting up, bucko!
also bizarrely, Nancy and I were at a friends daughters 21st in Glenrothes GC last friday evening. Here's a typical MB architectural comment: 1970s clubhouse (reasonably decent for the period) with FECKIN Georgian cornicing and decor in the Lounge - AAARRGGGHHHH!
On the upside, one of Balbirnie's barmaids who lost her job works there now.
I heard ages ago about some possibilities at Goatmilk. Can you share details?
best,
MB.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Goatmilk : I have put a bid in, will just have to wait and see. I did not bid on the land just the properties. The idea being to create about 18 en suite rooms to do packages of accomodation and golf. If we won the bids I would plan on staying there once or twice year and I would like to hear your drumming. Glenrothes is a great location as you know 30 minutes from StA and Edinburgh, plus very convient to Gleneages, Carnoustie.... how far is Ayr in time 2.5 hours?

Yes Glenrothes clubhouse looked a Doak 1.

In better times I would have considered the land at Goatmilk, the properties and got TD to do his stuff, certainly fine views, but he would have to had made the quirk.... it might work if 20 guys from here stump £50,000 for a stake.

[Marty Bonnar]

Good luck with the bid! If you need any local 'gen' please don't hesitate to ask.

Glenrothes is in a great location for most of our great courses. Shame the town centre has seen better days, although maybe that's true of most/many UK towns these days?

South Ayrshire about 2.5 hours depending on Forth bridge/Glasgow M8 traffic. New Forth Crossing might help, but a few years away still.

Once again, Good Luck!!!
cheers,
MB.

[Niall C]

I once did a 6 month stint working in Glenrothes and as Marty says, the town centre aint great, typical new town really. I travelled back and forwards every day from just outside Glasgow. Can't recall how long it took, must have been on autopilot most of the time.

Marty

Hows Balbirnie doing for memberships this weather ?

Niall