another rules violation: Inky DQ'ed...

[Dan Herrmann]

Why golf rules drive the public nuts:
1.  Inkster uses a donut on the first tee before her first shot - no penalty.
2.  Inkster uses a donut on the 2nd tee before her tee shot - penalty.

Where's the advantage she gains on the field?

Here's one I heard about on the weekend from a rules maven friend:
1.  Two players are trying to qualify for an event.  It's a 36 hole in a day qualifier.  There is an extremely long rain delay (so long that people are leaving) after the first 18, and two players decide to go play a few.   They are DQ'd.

That's what it's all about to me -there should be no penalty if a player doesn't gain an advantage.  It's that way in EVERY other sport other than perhaps ballroom dancing

[David Lott]

Here's one I heard about on the weekend from a rules maven friend:
1.  Two players are trying to qualify for an event.  It's a 36 hole in a day qualifier.  There is an extremely long rain delay (so long that people are leaving) after the first 18, and two players decide to go play a few.   They are DQ'd.

That's what it's all about to me -there should be no penalty if a player doesn't gain an advantage.

The rules in this case properly assume that playing the course gives them an advantage. Maybe in this particular case it would/did not, but in large part the rules are designed to remove subjective factors like intent or "gaining advantage."

The example you cite is a clear, simple rule--as was the one Inkster (still my favorite LPGA player) broke. She should have known better, and should have accepted the penalty with a little more grace, imho. She's competitive and was disappointed but has only herself to blame.

[Dan Herrmann]

David,
I agree that the rules as written were applied correctly.  What I'm suggesting is that the rule book be overhauled to focus on unfair actions that cause an advantage being the focus of penalties (like other sports)

[Sean_A]

 As they stand today, the rules are turning people away from the sport.

I've heard this quite a few times on this board over the last couple of weeks.

Does anybody really believe this?  Or is it just one of those easy things to say?  

I've never met or heard of anybody who either chose not to pursue golf or chose to quit golf because the rules were too complex for them.  I do, however, know plenty of people who simply play golf their own way, with mullies, gimmes, liberal drops, as many clubs as they want, do-overs, etc.  I also know plenty of people who don't play because (a) swinging a golf club and getting the ball to go where you want it is fricking hard to do; (b) golf is hugely time consuming and getting more and more so all the time due to the cheater line (sorry, couldn't resist!); and (c) golf is very expensive.

I just don't buy this notion that the rules turn people away from the sport at all.  Am I the only one?

Shivas

Two things.  Aren't you the guy who said if you aren't playing by the rules you aren't playing golf?  If you think folks aren't intimidated by the entire deal of golf (including the incredibly complex rules) and allow this intimidation to not oursue golf it is most likely because folks don't verbalize it.  That doesn't mean its not happening. 

For me the rules are just aby product of golf rather than the game itself and no, I don't think I know the rules very well.  But, I don;t think many people do and when EXPERTS need books (and further consultation) to get specific rulings correct during play, the rules are then too complicated for my taste.  All that said, the first change the rules need is to be written better.  Do this before any other changes are contemplated and I bet far fewer beefs occur.

Ciao

[TEPaul]

Here's an interesting one in the Rules history books;

Johnny Miller in a competition round found a little sawed off club in the bottom of his bag (it was his son's) and it violated the 14 club Rule for which he was penalized or DQed.

And of course Johnny's famous caddie, Andy Martinez, and how he used to crouch behind Miller WHEN he putted is the reason Rule 14-2b came into being on the putting green. And then later they flagged Annika's caddie from standing behind her "Through the Green" and elsewhere when she made a stroke and it became part of 14-2a.

Why did they flag Martinez and Miller? Apparently according to some who were part of the R&A/USGA Joint Rules Committee meetings on the subject it was because they just didn't like the look of it.

[George Pazin]

I can think of no greater nightmare than redesigning the Rules under the mindset of "does this give the player an advantage". Yikes, the Rule book would end up looking like the tax code...

Difference between doughnut before the first tee and mid round is pretty clear to me.

Dan, I would have thought that an analytical thinker like you would appreciate the consistency of the Rules more. Have you read the Tuft's book? It might give you a new and fresh perspective.

[Jerry Kluger]

Let's face it - 99.99999% of the rounds of golf played are not tournament rounds.  But let's say you are walking, or even riding in a cart, at your club or whatever venue it might be and you lose a ball that you had no reason to believe would be lost - are you really going to walk back to replay your shot - don't be ridiculous.  What do you do then in so far as posting a score?  This happens quite often. I don't want to get near the issue of gimme putts.  The fact is the rules need to have the ability to adjust to the situation and that means adapting to tournament versus non-tournament situations.  Shivas is very much concerned with pace of play - let me say this - one player walking 250 yards back to the tee after a lost ball will ruin the day for every player behind him - I have seen this in tournaments at my club and if members did this on non-tournament days we would have a freakin revolution.  

[Tim McManus]

 As they stand today, the rules are turning people away from the sport.

I just don't buy this notion that the rules turn people away from the sport at all.  Am I the only one?

My wife is a good player.  Last year she entered a club tournament and made it all the way to the finals.  She enjoyed the competition and started to really catch the golf bug - wanting to play and practice a lot more.  Then an opponent questioned her on a rule, and despite the fact that the opponent was wrong, it really shook her up to the point that she said "I'd rather just play tennis".  She still likes to play, but only occasionally, and generally only with me or others she knows well.  So true that the rules have not driven her from the game, but it has reduced her participation.

[George Pazin]

... But let's say you are walking, or even riding in a cart, at your club or whatever venue it might be and you lose a ball that you had no reason to believe would be lost - are you really going to walk back to replay your shot - don't be ridiculous.  What do you do then in so far as posting a score?  This happens quite often.

I'll let the experts explain it better, but I believe there are provisions for estimating one's score for posting purposes. I don't think anyone expects someone to walk back after a surprise lost ball during a casual round (maybe should have hit a provisional, though...).

I'd advise everyone to seek out JVB for a round. I've seen him patiently answer Rules questions all round long...

Maybe if they did the Rules seminars during a round of golf they'd get better participation! Think of it: have a Rules seminar at a local course that everyone wants to play, charge a bundle, make it a fundraiser for First Tee...everyone's a winner! JVB could tour the country giving playing seminars!!

[Sean_A]

Aren't you the guy who said if you aren't playing by the rules you aren't playing golf?  

I said:  you're not playing Golf.  With a capital G.  There's a difference.  

Shivas

I know I am merely a lowly UofM grad, but perhaps I could understand the difference if it was explained.  Please don't mention the "cheater line" as part of the explanation - tee hee.

Ciao  

[Sean_A]

Sean, there's golf, which is what folks who don't play by all the rules play (mullies, gimmes, "oh, just drop one over there", etc.), and then there's Golf, which is the game played under the Rules of Golf.

The difference is best exemplified by going back to the tee for a lost ball.  If it's a given to the guys in your group that once you lose a ball, you either concede or go back to the spot of the last shot to play under stroke and distance, you're playing Golf.  If that's an incredible notion to the guys in your group, you're playing golf.

This is not unique to Golf.  The rules of many sports get bent a little for everyday play.  When was the last time you saw a guy foul out of a pick-up basketball game or sit on the shore for two minutes in a pond hockey game for high-sticking or closing his hand on the puck?

Shivas

Gotcha, sort of golf=expediency compared to Golf.

Ciao

[John Moore II]

So, not on the topic of Inkster, but another fun time this past week. Anyone else see this?

http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/blog/devil_ball_golf/post/Two-LPGA-players-involved-in-a-disqualification-;_ylt=Au.q1n6Iga_LmbXmyLqNcPoogsUF?urn=golf-265860

And we say people are ruining the game by cursing a few times.

[John Moore II]

True story from this past weekend:

2 players are playing in their club championship quarterfinal, match play. Player A wins the 1st hole and they head to the 2nd tee, a par 3, and Player A hits a 7 iron to about 20 feet. Player B addresses his ball, starts his backswing when he is interrupted by Player A, who says, "Stop! I just played from the wrong tee and you are about to do the same." Player A hit from the member's tee, not the back tees. Player B thinks Player A should concede the hole. Player A will not do so until he checks the rule book.

Without looking, what is the ruling?

Player B could require A cancel his shot and they carry on from the correct tees. No penalty either way.

[Pete_Pittock]

Before playing his ball, Player B must decide whether to let player A's shot count, or recall it and have him play from the correct tees. There is no penalty.

[John Moore II]

You guys are good.... Player A, me, felt like a fool. But what made it all the more interesting is, after we looked it up in the rule book, Player B said, "I don't believe it. I conceded the hole when it happened to me 2 years ago." "Well, sounds like you should have checked the rules book." "I didn't because the guy I was playing with studies the rules. That's all he does. I don't believe that rule."

So I placed a call to our head pro and he came out to the 2nd tee to show, once again, Player B the rule. And once more, he said, "Well I don't believe it." So our pro, who is the only Master PGA professional in our state, sort of smiled and held out the book for player B to read and said, "Well, here it is, in black and white."

So he had me hit from the back tees, which I gladly did, and on our way to the green he started talking about how it was a dumb rule because anyone could just walk up to the green and drop their ball in the fringe and play from there and probably not get called on it because it would make the guy who had to call him on the rule feel uncomfortable. I then asked him if he would ever do such a thing himself or if he had ever either played with or heard about someone ever doing this. He said, "No, but by that rule they could."

At that moment I took out my hearing aids for the remainder of the round.

David-You were playing with a knucklehead. In any of those situations, the shot is just called back and replayed. In truth, I would say that he could have just played from the same tee box you played from and you guys just carried on; the rules don't state whether or not the second player can play from the wrong tees after the first player does. Right or wrong, I would say it is allowable since it is not expressly forbidden (that is my general interpretation of the rules, allowed if not specifically forbidden). His previous opponent did not know the rules any better than your opponent, unless his opponent was trying to give him a little extra jab hoping he didn't know the difference (he didn't obviously). But the fact is, you can concede a hole to your opponent at any time during the play of the hole. He just had it wrong. As for doubting the pro, I can sort of see that, the PGA requires only a basic knowledge of the rules, although this, to me, classifies as basic. I would not hesitate to doubt a pro in his ruling; then again, I am different than most in that I have been a rules official before, albeit on a very low level.

[Dan Herrmann]

"2 players are playing in their club championship quarterfinal, match play. Player A wins the 1st hole and they head to the 2nd tee, a par 3, and Player A hits a 7 iron to about 20 feet. Player B addresses his ball, starts his backswing when he is interrupted by Player A, who says, "Stop! I just played from the wrong tee and you are about to do the same." Player A hit from the member's tee, not the back tees. Player B thinks Player A should concede the hole. Player A will not do so until he checks the rule book."


Ok - what happens if "A" says, never mind - let's just play from here.  "B" agrees and they play on.

If I'm correct, they're both DQ'd, right?

[Pete_Pittock]

Dan,
It depends. If they knew they were violating the rules both are DQd. Otherwise, play on.

[John Moore II]

"2 players are playing in their club championship quarterfinal, match play. Player A wins the 1st hole and they head to the 2nd tee, a par 3, and Player A hits a 7 iron to about 20 feet. Player B addresses his ball, starts his backswing when he is interrupted by Player A, who says, "Stop! I just played from the wrong tee and you are about to do the same." Player A hit from the member's tee, not the back tees. Player B thinks Player A should concede the hole. Player A will not do so until he checks the rule book."


Ok - what happens if "A" says, never mind - let's just play from here.  "B" agrees and they play on.

If I'm correct, they're both DQ'd, right?

I beat around that in my last post. In that situation, it is not expressly forbidden that the second player can not play from the wrong spot and they carry on. Since it is match play, no advantage over the field is afforded to the players. I suppose it could be said that this is an agreement to waive the rules, but...

[Andrew Brown]

Ok - what happens if "A" says, never mind - let's just play from here.  "B" agrees and they play on.

If I'm correct, they're both DQ'd, right?

I beat around that in my last post. In that situation, it is not expressly forbidden that the second player can not play from the wrong spot and they carry on. Since it is match play, no advantage over the field is afforded to the players. I suppose it could be said that this is an agreement to waive the rules, but...

Actually John, it is an agreement to waive the rules. Rule 1-1 in fact. It states "The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground..."

By agreeing to play from the wrong teeing ground, they agreed to waive the Rule. They were fully aware of the location of the teeing ground. It is not a question of advantage over the field, and thus not enforced. Both players are DQ. End of story.

Andrew

[Pete_Pittock]

Andrew,
In Rule 1-3 and its decisions you pass over the importlant word 'knowingly'. If they did not know how to proceed after the first person hit from the wrong teeing ground, their agreement to play from the members tee box was permissible. As this is match play there is no field to protect.

[Jim Sweeney]

It's pretty clear in this situation that once player A stopped player B from hitting, they would have figured out that they were playing from the wrong teeing ground. Player B would be required to play from the correct tee.

The real question involves player A. Rule 2 states that if a player played a shot when it was his opponent's turn to play, the opponent has the right to immediately recall that shot. Immediately means before the opponent plays his next shot. So, since player B was in the act of swinging when player A stopped him, had he forfeited his right to recall A's stroke? There is no decision directly on point.

Were I the referee, who in match play has the power of final decision, I would probably rule that since B had not made a stroke, he could recall A's stroke. And I could be wrong, but could make a solid argument.

Player B could decide to not recall A's shot, a sporting thing to do since A stopped B from violating a rule. But after A stoped B, they could not agree to have B play from the wrong tee. That would be agreement to wave the rule- both DQ'd.

[Andrew Brown]

Andrew,
In Rule 1-3 and its decisions you pass over the importlant word 'knowingly'. If they did not know how to proceed after the first person hit from the wrong teeing ground, their agreement to play from the members tee box was permissible. As this is match play there is no field to protect.

Hi Pete,

I have perused R1-3 and its decisions again. I have failed to find the word “knowingly” anywhere. But of course, we are talking about the word “agree”.

The answer to Decision 1-3/1 does make it explicit (as you point out) that;
1.   Players must be aware they are waiving a Rule
2.   If the players were ignorant of the Rules, they can’t be waiving a Rule
3.   If players are aware of the Rules and agree not to follow them, they breach Rule 1-3

In the case at hand, I was responding specifically to Dan’s situation (added to the original situation), which reads,
Ok - what happens if "A" says, never mind - let's just play from here.  "B" agrees and they play on.

If someone says “Never mind, let’s just play from here”, to my mind that person admits they know they have, or that they will, play from the wrong location. The agreement from B is obtained and they play on – there has been an agreement to play from the wrong teeing ground. An agreement to exclude the operation of R11-5 and R1-1.

Regards
Andrew

[Jerry Kluger]

I read today that there was an incident on the LPGA tour where two players on Sunday played each others ball on the 18th hole and then signed their scorecards without taking necessary penalty strokes.  Somehow the matter came up and they went back and discussed it with the officials and were disqualified.  I am not sure that I have the facts correct but I am quite certain that they did play the wrong ball and did not assess themselves the appropriate penalty.  How can this happen - it does not seem possible that they only realized this after they signed their cards. Does anyone know exactly what happened and how it was that they both signed for the wrong score?   

[JohnV]

Jerry,

You can read about it on my blog, Geoff's website and other places on the web.

[PThomas]

Geoff S also tells the story of a 14 year old who won a junior tournament, but when he got home someone noticed he had an extra club is his bag

admirably, the kid called it in on his own, took the 4shot penalty, and became runner up