[Brian Laurent]

What do most consider Jack Kidwell's best design?  Does he have one in particular that stands out above the rest?

I played one of his courses yesterday (Tablerock) and was surprised by what I saw.  By no means would it be considered a great golf course, but it had some very interesting features including chocolate drops, church pews and a few interesting green complexes.

If you can look beyond the "artwork" on the golf course (clay pipe sculptures, random flower bed mounds and multiple rock sculptures), Tablerock was a fun little track.  And if you're a Scotty Cameron collector, it's a must visit!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Brian,

While I can't tell you because I may have never played a Kidwell design, I would love to relate a story of playing Gleneagles King's Course with Jack at my very first ASGCA meeting in 1980.  He seemed to take a fatherly interest in me, or was probably just that nice to everyone.  But he explained the course all the way around to this newb to ASGCA and Scotland.  I recall coming to the tee on the 17th (? May have been the 16th" a short par 4 dog leg left and he commented that this fw bunker was the best placed in all of Scotland. 

It was true. You had to hit within a few yards of it to have a good shot at the tight green and you knew it.  It was a great example of how a short 4 can be tricky and fun.

So, while he had a midwesterner's practical bent, he really did understand what made golf fun for decent to good players and didn't seem to feel it required waterfalls and the like. 

[Billsteele]

Brian-Probably the best two courses Jack Kidwell designed are Hickory Hills (southwest of Columbus) and Beckett Ridge (in Cincinnati). Most of Kidwell's designs were intended to be moderately priced public courses. He did most of the Ohio state park courses (except for Maumee Bay which is an Arthur Hills design) and most of the Columbus municipal courses (except for Champions and Raymond which are Robert Trent Jones efforts). Both Hickory Hills and Beckett Ridge were intended to be private clubs. Hickory Hills remains so. Beckett Ridge has transitioned to a semi-private structure due to the economy.

Both Hickory Hills and Beckett Ridge are solid designs. However, Beckett Ridge is routed through some housing. Hickory Hills is set in splendid isolation in Southwestern Franklin County. To me, Hickory Hills is the better of the two courses...primarily due to its green complexes. They really are very challenging...with some false fronts, internal movement and some well placed bunkers and hazards guarding them. The first hole has one of the most challenging opening tee shots that I have experienced. It is uphill to a narrow fairway that falls away to a ravine on the left. The tendency is to push the shot right but there are trees in the right rough. The green has a false front on the right front portion and has two distinct sections on the right front and left which make for some interesting pin placements. The fourth hole is a dogleg right which plays downhill to a fairway with a creek defining the right side and then moves uphill to a green with a large bunker in front and a great deal of pitch from front to back. The par five eighth also has a great deal of movement in the green. The routing takes great advantage of the natural contours and elements of the land. There is a ravine that cuts through the property and is used to great effect (including the very good eighteenth hole which has an approach shot over it to another challenging green). If I get a chance I will post more thoughts but Hickory Hills demonstrates that given the opportunity, Kidwell could do some very fine work.

[Brian Laurent]

Nice story, Jeff and thanks for the info, Bill.  I've certainly heard of Hickory Hills.  My curiosity was stemmed from the enjoyment of Tablerock...as mentioned, there were some great features and some good holes.  18 in particular is a very solid golf hole (although from a gambling perspective, not fun having the finisher be the #1 handicap hole!). 

So, while he had a midwesterner's practical bent, he really did understand what made golf fun for decent to good players and didn't seem to feel it required waterfalls and the like.

Jeff...I wonder what he would think of all the "art" pieces on the course and particularly, the addition of a waterfall on #1!?

[Richard Hetzel]

Kidwell's additonal 9 at Piqua CC wasn't all that bad. However, in my experience, his courses seem to be run of the mill, tree lined courses.

Bill, I personally disliked Beckett Ridge CC. I have yet to play Hickory Hills. Kidwell had his hand in A LOT of Ohio golf courses.

I think he designed the now defunct Kingswood GC near King's Island near Mason, Ohio.

[Billsteele]

Rich-On the Longaberger thread, you described Art Hills' designs as straightforward and fair. I can't think of a better description of Jack Kidwell's courses. He was Art Hills with smaller budgets and no PR. In fact, given the projects he worked on (which were largely smaller and constrained by modest budgets), he probably produced as good a result with less.

I would be curious to why you were disappointed with Beckett Ridge. It is laid out right in front of you, has some elevation changes and is fair. I don't remember anything gimmicky or goofy about it. Is it one of the most memorable courses I have played? No, but it sure wasn't among the worst.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Brian,

From memory, I think Jack would have no interest in seeing waterfalls added to his courses.  Also, I have spoken with Mike Hurdzan a lot, and know that he had to basically partner with Dana Fry to do well since the 1990's - He knew that Jack had instilled the practical side in him too much to design within the then current parameters of wowzer needed to be successful.  I think it ended up being a great partnership with complimentary talents.

[Richard Hetzel]

Bill,

Don't get me wrong, Kidwell's courses are fine. I guess I just don't like the Johnny Appleseed planting of trees to define fairways. There are better ways, although more costly (although cheaper once said trees reach full maturity), to skin that cat.

In regard to Beckett; it was OK. Maybe the plethora of homes everywhere detracted from the design of the holes. It is however, one of the few places in Cincinnati that tends to play fast and firm. It can now be played on the CHEAP.

I checked Worldgolf on Kidwell courses, not sure that is a comprehensive list,but I have played the following:

Beckett Ridge CC
Blackhawk GC
Blue Ash GC (plays very similar to Beckett Ridge BTW)
Hidden Valley CC
Hueston Woods GC
Kingswood GC (no longer open)
Shawnee Lookout GC
Pleasant Hill GC
South Trace Fairfield (A fun golf course that was originally private I believe)
Foxfire GC (not Players)
Twin Oaks GC (9 holer near Muirfield, no longer open) 2nd golf course I ever played!
The Vineyard GC (desperately needs a chainsaw party for me to like it again) Could be his best work and at one time a "Top 100" course.
Wildwood CC (9 hole semi private with some really QUIRKY holes)
Walden Ponds GC
Piqua CC (additon of 9 holes to 9 Ross holes) Solid golf course



Rich

[Tom Yost]

I've played the course at Hueston Woods State Park a few times and it is a very good public golf offering.  It could use some tree work and I'm not a fan of the long par 3 that is all carry over a lake.  But generally speaking, a great value, in a scenic woodland setting.

[Tom MacWood]

Hickory Hills.

[Chris_Blakely]

Some of my favorite Jack Kidwell golf courses are:

Mohican Hills GC (Jeromesville, OH)
Salt Fork State Park GC (Lore City, OH)
Brass Ring GC (Logan, OH Kidwell added 9 holes to an existing course built in the 1930's)

Here is an approximate list of his courses:

http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/jack-kidwell.html


Chris

[David Royer]

I've played 9 of the courses listed by Richard Hertzel.  The two that jump out the most for me are Hickory Hills and Blue Ash. As a former member of HH I can assure you you'll not find a more relaxing time of peaceful quiet.  The course conditions are good given the state of membership although the bunker conditioning is poor.  My biggest criticism is use of what I would describe as a wavy potato chip style of green.  HH 8, Brookside Columbus 3 are the best examples. You can hit a high quality shot and find yourself off the green in the rough because of runoff.  HH also has a nice tribute to Jack Kidwell in the dining room.  It's nice tribute full of pictures, drawings, and tools used in course marking.   The State of Ohio also has erected a tribute to Jack Kidwell at Hickory Hills.  It's a small green space by the first tee. Hickory Hills is always receptive to guests.   

[Mark McKeever]

What do most consider Jack Kidwell's best design?  Does he have one in particular that stands out above the rest?

I played one of his courses yesterday (Tablerock) and was surprised by what I saw.  By no means would it be considered a great golf course, but it had some very interesting features including chocolate drops, church pews and a few interesting green complexes.

If you can look beyond the "artwork" on the golf course (clay pipe sculptures, random flower bed mounds and multiple rock sculptures), Tablerock was a fun little track.  And if you're a Scotty Cameron collector, it's a must visit!

I played there recently and liked the layout, but had a very tough time looking past the "artwork" you mention.  The clay sculptures and random flower beds ruin a lot of the holes in my opinion.  The waterfall on hole 1 really takes away from a nice looking second shot.  I liked the mounding and church pews that were present on a few of the holes though.  One thing that I didnt understand was why some of the "bunkers" were filled with essentially a fine gravel yet the bunker next to it was your typical brownish sand.  That and the pile of gravel in the bottleneck on 17 fairway....

The stumps with potted plants really took away from a lot of the holes along with the random rock sculptures.

Just my .02.  Nice layout though.

Mark

[Michael Herrmann]

Have played about 8 of the designs that are listed above, and agree with the sentiment that there are some nice quality, affordable public courses out there.

Hueston Woods has long been regarding as a very good test of golf and for many years was used by Miami University as their home course.  I didn't go to school there, but they had some outstanding twilight rates, and probably still do.

Been a few years since I last played Blue Ash and The Vineyard.  Both have good variety, Blue Ash specifically is on a nice site with some good elevation changes.  I could kind of take or leave Beckett Ridge, the housing thing is a little tough to get past at times when you are staring at 20 OOB stakes 30 yards off a fairway.

[Doug Sobieski]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Indian Springs in Mechanicsburg. One of my favorite public courses to play, despite the conditioning. However, the last time I was there it was much improved, likely due to the fact that they closed the non-Kidwell nine. The original course has some very good par 5's, and there is a lot of strategy off the tee, much more than a typical public golf course. I think that 10 or 11 of the driving holes benefit from significant thought from the tee.

I'd like to see Matt Ward chime in on Indian Springs. He's always been a fan as well.

[Brian Laurent]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Indian Springs in Mechanicsburg. One of my favorite public courses to play, despite the conditioning. However, the last time I was there it was much improved, likely due to the fact that they closed the non-Kidwell nine. The original course has some very good par 5's, and there is a lot of strategy off the tee, much more than a typical public golf course. I think that 10 or 11 of the driving holes benefit from significant thought from the tee.

I'd like to see Matt Ward chime in on Indian Springs. He's always been a fan as well.

Doug...what's the story with Indian Springs?  I was looking at some aerials and noticed the guts of some previous holes.  Looked like they had an "island green" and some other pretty interesting holes.  Did they have 27 holes at one point?

[Doug Sobieski]

Doug...what's the story with Indian Springs?  I was looking at some aerials and noticed the guts of some previous holes.  Looked like they had an "island green" and some other pretty interesting holes.  Did they have 27 holes at one point?

Brian:

In the late '90's, for some reason they decided to add a 3rd nine, designed by David Savic I believe. As you could have predicted, nobody wanted to play it. I played it once, and that was one time too many.

[Ronald Montesano]

https://asgca.org/architect/jkidwell/

On this Independence Day, thanks to Jack Kidwell for interrupting his career and life to fight for the allies in WWII.

[Steve Lang]

   Ron,


Nice of you to identify JK's service, a very interesting guy indeed.


I guess I missed this original thread, as I've played at least a dozen of his courses mentioned, Hueston Woods, Blue Ash, and Salt Fork the most... 


Merry 4th! 

[Jeff Zugelter]

Hi Richard,


The Vineyard GC was a joint effort with Michael Hurdzan and the Walden Ponds GC architect is attributed only to Michael Hurdzan.


https://waldenponds.com/michael-hurdzan/


Regards,


Jeff

[Richard Hetzel]

Hi Richard,


The Vineyard GC was a joint effort with Michael Hurdzan and the Walden Ponds GC architect is attributed only to Michael Hurdzan.


https://waldenponds.com/michael-hurdzan/


Regards,


Jeff

I knew that! Not sure why I typed that 11 years ago! I like the Vineyard, it could be awesome if they took a (or many) chainsaw to it.

[Cal Carlisle]

The only thing I remember about Table Rock is the Scotty Cameron stuff. When I played there back in 2002 there was a ton of Cameron stuff. Everything had absolutely eye-watering prices. From what I understand TAble Rock used to be quite the spectacle at the PGA Show.

https://www.golfwrx.com/65805/scotty-cameron-pga-show-table-rock-golf/

[Tommy Williamsen]

In his generation there were literally millions of guys like him. It was a generation that lived through the depression and served their country. I learned a lot from them and our country misses guys like that. We are the poorer for it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Just saw this photo of Jack Kidwell teeing off at St. Andrews on ASGCA social media and thought you could put a face to a name.  This was, BTW, young me's first ASGCA meeting (1980), where I did get to play with Jack.  I don't see myself in this pic, however.  I do see a young Danny Maples (just left of cameraman with Dave Gill beside and RTJ's long time associate Roger Rulewhich right behind him.)  Mike Hurdzan and Larry Packard are to the right of Jack's back.  We have a Bill Neff sighting right behind Jack's hands.  Also, Brian Ault and Tom Clark are just behind the camera man on either side.


If anyone cares, I might spend some time on the others present, who are not all admittedly in my memory bank.

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