Clear Creek

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matt - quite highly.  Of those I've played I think CC is better than Hidden Creek, Chechesee, Colorado Golf, Old Sandwich, Kapalua, Friar's Head (I've never been able to get into FH until the 10th hole), E Hampton, Cuscowilla, Barton Creek, WeKoPa and Talking Stick.

But behind Sand Hills and just behind Bandon Trails.  I'll be back at Barnbougle in March and suspect Lost Farm will be added to SH and BT.

JC

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

Tame me through your thinking about why you see BT ahead of CC.

I see the middle holes at BT -- starting with the 7th through the tee shot at #13 as just being so-so. Very uninspired holes that are quite predictable and far from the high level that C&C have done.

CC is just so consistent -- I am not a fan of the starting hole there but it serves its purpose as the beginning entry point. On that score I give the opening hole at BT the better grade.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matt - the par 4 11th at BT is one of the very best holes anywhere.  Surely you can't think that strong and beautiful par 4 is uninspired.  I think 13 is beautiful as well, set into the hill with its fragile green.  Are you implying the 14th is good??  It's dreadful.  18 is a poor finisher as well.  I think the power of BT starts at 2 and ends at 13.  Seems to be the exact opposite of the way you see it.  JC

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

The 11th, you see, as one of the very best holes anywhere. How do you figure that?

Sure, there's a nice pond on the right -- but it's more eye-candy than anything else. The green is also quite pedestrian given the talents of this duo and what they have done elsewhere.

I agree with you on #13 -- in regards to the approach.

I like the par-4 14th -- it's a butt kicker. It adds a clear amount of controversy to the mixture. You don't like th 18th? Why?

Please help me how you leave off the 1st at BT. I see it as the best starting hole of the bunch at the facility -- likely a nose ahead of the 1st at Old Macdonald.

Jonathan, back to the matter at hand -- Clear Creek has the better and more diverse putting surfaces than BT. Take for example what C&C did with the par-3 5th at BT -- it's a fine hole. The par-3 17th at CC is even better -- more range, shot selection questions to ponder and just a more demanding green.

We agree it's better than the others you mentioned -- I have not played FH so I can't comment on that. But given you have -- at least a portion of it -- that says plenty in my mind.

Jonathan, if you had to name a weakness at CC - what would you say?

[Joel_Stewart]

I'm a little surprised anyone would rate CC ahead of Friars Head.  Personally I place Friars Head ahead of Sand Hills as the #1 Coore & Crenshaw course.   Clear Creek would be a distant 3rd and Bandon Trails would be 4th.  I haven't played Hidden Creek or Old Sandwich.

Clear Creek has at least 5 forgettable holes with the 1st hole as an example and I played there last year.  It's been at least 4 years since I played Friars Head and can remember every hole.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Joel - I know I'm in a minority regarding Friar's Head.  The potato field holes are tactically strong but esthetically unappealing. 

I'm a setting guy which may mean I put more emphasis on scenery than I should.  To me, the getaway golfing experience is important and I rank courses the best that get me furtherest from the office.  I just played Dismal, Ballyneal and Sand Hills which are great getaways.  I love Rock Creek, Prairie Club, Sutton, Bandon, Raven Course at Snowshoe and many many others, worldwide, for the same reasons.  Bandon Trails and Clear Creek capture my heart. as does the back nine at Friars.  We can argue the technical ingredients of the architect-player defend-attack interplay until we are blue in the face.  At the end of the day the degree in which a course captures your heart, for both tactical and esthetic reasons, is our personal measure of course quality.

JC   

[Kyle Henderson]

Sand Hills is the best C&C course of my experience (big surprise!), but Clear Creek Tahoe is not far behind in quality (very high praise).

Bandon Trails is a very good layout, but not as high in quality from top to bottom as CCT.

Colorado golf club boasts a terrific layout, but it's a distant fourth in this race.

Coore and Crenshaw have amassed quite the portfolio...

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Cuscowilla is better than CC to me by far.

[Joel_Stewart]

Cuscowilla is better than CC to me by far.

Wow.  I put Cuscowilla dead last of the Coore & Crenshaw courses I have played.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

Five (5) forgettable holes at CC.

Care to share the details - I don't see the 1st as forgettable but rather ordinary.

If CC has five forgettable holes how many does Bandon Trails have ? Or Cuscowilla ?

Fair to say you see Martis Camp ahead of CC ?

Tiger:

Enjoy the one sentence commentary -- can you share some details on the Cuscowilla over CC belief ?

Kyle:

Given that you have played a few C&C courses -- what surprised you at CC and what was special there that you were not aware of prior to playing the course ?

Jonathan:

Raven Course at Snowshoe Surely you jest. Agreed with your other selections -- but the Player layout has not design beef -- it's just a post card view. Jonathan -- what tactical is there at Raven at Snowshoe ?

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matt - I've played Raven 75 times.  I wrote a feature article about it and know the artictect - Tom Walker - very well.  I host a tournaments there every year for the past 14 years.  Raven has excellent par 5s, including the 13th which, in my mind, is all world.  The course has mediocre par 3s and a half dozen wonderful (mostly beautiful) par 4s.  I love the place.  It was once modern top 100 on GW.  You may not like the place but it's unquestionably in the upper echelon of modern golf courses - and that's not me speaking.  My editor thinks it's one of the best secret getaways in the US.  BTW - Player was there once - on opening day....

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

Raven gets by because people are infactuated with the lovely views. The design there is above average but it's especially worthy of a top 100 status. You say it's "unquestionably" in the upper ecehlon -- you may need to play more modern courses if that's what you see. When you say "secret getaways" there are plenty of courses I would add to that list before Snowshoe would get a remote sniff.

Jonathan, the 13th is a fine hole -- all world? Maybe if you limit it to the stateline of WV.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matt - 1100 courses seen worldwide is not enough?

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

That's nice -- let me know when you hit 1,500 worldwide.

By the way -- total number of courses doesn't mean squat when you throw in the more important ingredient -- the analysis. Snowshoe is a scenie wonder but it's not anymore special in that regard than many other courses and frankly a place like Clear Creek is miles beyond it in so many ways. Ditto a number of other courses that are public in the USA.

Jonathan -- we often agree on many points but Snowshoe is not a top 100 modern layout in my mind.

Now, let's get back to Clear Creek -- we are "clear" on how we see that fantastic C&C layout.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Jonathan, I am thinking you need to move up to New Jersey so you and Matt can hold hands while you and he discuss CC and other passions.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Right Tiger, like Snowshoe

[John Kirk]

Let's talk about some more holes!

What about #5?  That's a very interesting short 4...tough driving decisions.

What about #10?  Long par 4 with a pinch point about halfway there.  Another hole where, given my ability, I felt it might be a better decision to lay back to 220 yards and hit a fairway wood onto the very large green.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

John I like the dyan quote and hope you are doing well. Jon lol I wonder if the obvious economic futility for the next decade impacted my view of cc. I had just been in Carmel hearing about all the problems the preserve was having. The developers had just handed control to the homeowners. The same group did cc and it was as clear as the Nevada day that deal was going nowhere in a hurry. I did like the course a lot lime every core chrenshaw course I ever played but did feel marts camp was slightly better and was surprised to still feel that way several nights later while contemplating these things over a whisky or 5 watching the sun set over lake tahoe. I am glad to see the passion you and Matt have for it. O

[Matt_Ward]

John,

Laying back at #10 may seem at first glance a good move but you sacrifice so much yardage that unless you have the ability level of a Larry Nelson or Hale Irwin with the fairway metal or hybrid it's best to get the tee shot as close to the hole as possible. One other thing -- the green at #10 is certainly much wider than many of the earlier holes but the green still has some serious movement -- especially in the rear area.

Tiger:

You said you had five C&C courses ahead of CC. Still waiting on that listing and with it a good bit of detailed analysis - more than the fleeting one line statements. Thanks ...

p.s. If therre's a specific ingredient lacking at CC I'm curious to your thoughts. Regarding Martis Camp -- where would you place it among all the other TF courses you have played?

[Patrick Kiser]

Let's talk about some more holes!

What about #5?  That's a very interesting short 4...tough driving decisions.

What about #10?  Long par 4 with a pinch point about halfway there.  Another hole where, given my ability, I felt it might be a better decision to lay back to 220 yards and hit a fairway wood onto the very large green.

John,

I too especially liked the #5.  I felt the strategy on this hole was very clever with that central fairway bunker setting up the options + how the funnel effect into that bunker was rather deceptive from afar.  I felt the green was well defended and had some very interesting contours.  The back bunker was neatly integrated into the landscape and swept into the hill itself.  Just a very cool hole.  I actually wish I had spent more time examining the various options into the green.  I think this green offers a lot of variety in pin placements depending on the angle into the green.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

You say CC is a "distant third" to the likes of SH and FH.

Can you tell me what you see as the deficiencies -- you did mention the inferior 1st hole and possibly a few others.

One other thing would you rate CC among your personal top 25 ? Top 50 ? Top 100?

thanks ...

[Matt_Ward]

Little has been mentioned of CC's 17th hole -- just a solid par-3 that plays anywhere from 125 yards to as much as 175 yards -- depending upon where the pin is located.

The green is engulfed by a range of different items -- bunkers and high grass -- w wild sage brush and the like in the very front .

The putting surface is slightly elevated in the front 1/4 and then it plunges in the middle half before once again rising in the last 1/4. Getting an approach to either a very front location or very rear one takes a high degree of precision.

Those who like the 5th at BT will really enjoy the 17th here.

Just a great position on the course too -- people think about a quick biride because of the lack of length -- but fast bogeys and even more can just as quickly happen here.

[Matt_Ward]

Have to wonder if being located in NV is a plus or minus for CC.

The course is well situated but often times western layouts -- especially those in NV (save for Shadow Creek) get panned,

[Patrick Kiser]

Little has been mentioned of CC's 17th hole -- just a solid par-3 that plays anywhere from 125 yards to as much as 175 yards -- depending upon where the pin is located.

The green is engulfed by a range of different items -- bunkers and high grass -- w wild sage brush and the like in the very front .

The putting surface is slightly elevated in the front 1/4 and then it plunges in the middle half before once again rising in the last 1/4. Getting an approach to either a very front location or very rear one takes a high degree of precision.

Those who like the 5th at BT will really enjoy the 17th here.

Just a great position on the course too -- people think about a quick biride because of the lack of length -- but fast bogeys and even more can just as quickly happen here.

Matt,

Although I liked the hole, I would have preferred it to have been ... elevated as opposed to being a drop kick.  Just a preference thing for me.

My only qualm with the hole is I hit a solid wedge to the left middle half and it did not hold onto the green.  The ball ran right off into thick stuff.

I agree the shot is rather exacting and for the middle HCP player can spell trouble.

Otherwise, a very timely par 3 and a cool one at that.

[Matt_Ward]

Patrick:

I like where the 17th is situated in the round. Just looking at the hole and seeing the lack of distance many make the erroneous assumption of a quick and e-z birdie. Far from it -- as you well know.

The rear pin placement is quite exacting too -- especially back far right.

When I was there the pin was cut real tight to the front. You can't be either too long with a rear one or too short for a frontal spot.

Be interesting to see whether people who have played BT's 5th like that hole more or less than CC's 17th here.