[Bob Jenkins]

I am most interested in the regional distribution of raters for Score and whether raters from one area are required to have seen a limited number of courses in another area. I ask this as living on the west coast, I have played almost all of the BC courses listed (and several more not listed), a few in Alberta and only a few in the rest of the country. There is really no way I can compare those I have played to those I have not, and I suspect that the vast majority of raters face the same dilemma. [I suspect many, like  me, have played several great courses in England, Scotland and the US more than they have played in different regions of Canada.] Also I asume that very few raters (such as you Robert, maybe Ian, Jeff and a few others) have played most of the courses on the lists. It then must become a regional matter.

Finally, are there a minimum number of ratings for a course to get on the list? I suspect that many more remote courses would have been rated  by many fewer people than those in metropolitan areas and so one or two "deviant" ratings for a course with few ratings can skew the standing for those courses. Perhaps that may explain how Tobiano gets ranked ahead of Sagebrush? There has to be some kind of explanation for that, other than Sagebrush being more remote.  I also see some other rankings for this area that seem contrary to popular opinion and are difficult to understand.

Thanks,

Thanks

[Philippe Binette]

same as usual:

there is not 71 courses better than mount bruno is canada...

Tobiano 16th... I just spent two days at Blackhawk and how can I say it:

give me a 100 free rounds of golf to play between the two, and I ll play Tobiano once... just to remember how good Blackhawk is.

[Philippe Binette]

Do people look at the golf... or at the scenery when they rate golf courses.

Essex is a good example of no scenery, great golf... which is sooo much better than great scenery, weak golf... or even better, great scenery.. why did somebody built that golf hole in the way...

Essex should be better than #66

I ll stop here

[Wayne_Kozun]

Ian - I totally agree that the bulk of the excellent courses in Canada are in Ontario.  I personally haven't played that many courses in Canada outside of Ontario - I have probably played more Scottish courses than Canadian courses outside of Ontario.  But the two courses that I have played that I would put in the top 25 that you guys didn't would be Victoria and Mt Bruno.  I know you guys gave Mt Bruno an honourable mention but you didn't mention Victoria (or Colwood) and I know that at least one of you guys had not seen those Victoria, BC courses when you did that list.

[Philippe Binette]

just another one (I can't resist)

Royal Montreal Red is the best course at Royal montreal...
the Red should be on that list.

possible forgotten courses in Quebec.. probably won't fit in the top 70 though.

1) Joliette GC (H Watson) it's been a while since I ve been there
2) maybe Ian could talk about Pinegrove (never been there)
3) highest potential: Les Dunes in Sorel... if it was not for those stupid power lines.


ooooh and Hillsdale (Laurentian by H Watson)... that's a top 70 course... going to host the CN Canadian Womens Open next year... I hope it will go up... Could host a Canadian Open... almost did in 1969 (I think)

[Wayne_Kozun]

Philippe - what are you top 10 in Quebec?

[Bob Jenkins]

Wayne,

How can you say that "the bulk of excellent golf courses in Canada are in Ontario" when you follow that up by saying  you have not played many courses in Canada outside of Ontario?  I do not question that Ontario may well have the "bulk" of excellent courses but I dont know. That is also my point on the ratings. You have played few Canadian courses outside of Ontario and I have played only a few courses in Ontario but we both obviously golf a lot, can tell what we like and dislike and probably share a lot of the same opinions on what is good, great, bad, etc in golf course architecture. Clearly there must be a regional bias and so how do you overcome that in the ratings?

Wouldn't it be great if we could shrink Canada to the size of England (basically the size of Vancouver Island) and we could easily get to any course in the country in a day?

. . . .  . and I still cannot get over Tobiano being ranked ahead of Sagebrush. That is bizarre.

[Matthew MacKay]

Bob, the only way to eliminate the regionalism is to insist that all panellist have extensive playing experience in all provinces...which, in a massive country is not easy.

I find all this easier to swallow if I view the list in provincial segments. For example, it means more to me that the panellists have deemed Chateau Whistler to be the 8th best course in BC than it does for them to deem it #54 in Canada.

[Sean_A]

Wayne,

How can you say that "the bulk of excellent golf courses in Canada are in Ontario" when you follow that up by saying  you have not played many courses in Canada outside of Ontario?  I do not question that Ontario may well have the "bulk" of excellent courses but I dont know. That is also my point on the ratings. You have played few Canadian courses outside of Ontario and I have played only a few courses in Ontario but we both obviously golf a lot, can tell what we like and dislike and probably share a lot of the same opinions on what is good, great, bad, etc in golf course architecture. Clearly there must be a regional bias and so how do you overcome that in the ratings?

Wouldn't it be great if we could shrink Canada to the size of England (basically the size of Vancouver Island) and we could easily get to any course in the country in a day?

. . . .  . and I still cannot get over Tobiano being ranked ahead of Sagebrush. That is bizarre.

Bob

That can't be right!  Vancouver Island has to be far smaller than England.  Quick, who out there knows (roughly) the sq mileage of each?  I use Louisiana as a comparison to England in terms of size with Oregon being about twice as big.  Vancouver Island can't be anywhere near as big as Louisiana - could it?  I know Canada is massive and all, but VI the size of Louisiana?  Now you got me wondering.  

Matt

Scarboro interests me and I am sure folks have tlaked about it on here in the past, but I can't recall anything abut it. 

Ciao

[Robert Thompson]

If by bias you mean raters haven't seen enough outside of their region, I'd agree. I don't think anyone says, "Well, this would be a really good course if only it were in Toronto."

That said, I've seen practically everything and I'd concur with Ian -- Ontario is the strongest by a significant margin. No real surprise -- it also has the most courses.

That's not a knock against BC, which has several of my faves -- like Capilano, Shaughnessy, Victoria, etc.

I'd say the one thing the Score panel is missing is raters who have traveled very widely. I don't care where they are from as long as they've seen The National, Highlands Links, Capilano, and Riverside. In other words, they have to understand the best of each region. It is a daunting task and I only know of a few who have done it.

Wayne,

How can you say that "the bulk of excellent golf courses in Canada are in Ontario" when you follow that up by saying  you have not played many courses in Canada outside of Ontario?  I do not question that Ontario may well have the "bulk" of excellent courses but I dont know. That is also my point on the ratings. You have played few Canadian courses outside of Ontario and I have played only a few courses in Ontario but we both obviously golf a lot, can tell what we like and dislike and probably share a lot of the same opinions on what is good, great, bad, etc in golf course architecture. Clearly there must be a regional bias and so how do you overcome that in the ratings?

Wouldn't it be great if we could shrink Canada to the size of England (basically the size of Vancouver Island) and we could easily get to any course in the country in a day?

. . . .  . and I still cannot get over Tobiano being ranked ahead of Sagebrush. That is bizarre.

[Bob Jenkins]

Sean,

I checked and I am off on one point and that is the total area of England which is about 4 times bigger than Vancouver Island but is almost as long. Vancouver Island is about400 km or 290 miles long. Not sure of the length of England but I think it is about 500 km. Total areas, Vancouver Island 32,100 sq. km and England 130,000 sq. km. The point is that it would be easy to get to most points in England in a day and the same goes for Vancouver Island.

Robert,

I completely agree that what would be ideal is to have plenty of people who hae travelled widely. But assuming it would not be possible to get enough people who have had such exposure across the country, it becomes a matter of regionalism and I am not sure how to do a national list in that case.

Looking at BC, I still cannot swallow Tobiano being No. 3 in the province. Also, Northview (Ridge), Vancouver Golf Club, Point Grey, Nanaimo, maybe Gallaghers Canyon, Seymour and more would seem to rate higher than several of those listed for BC.

I will stop whining now.

[Jason McNamara]

Spurred on by Bob's comment, here's some regional lists:

Alberta
----------
4. Jasper Park
5. Banff Springs
21. Wolf Creek
25. Blackhawk
30. Kananaskis - Mt. Kidd
32. Stewart Creek
41. Glencoe
47. Kananaskis - Mt. Lorette
50. Calgary G&CC
58. Priddis Greens - Hawk
68. Heritage Point - Desert, Heritage
87. Royal Mayfair
92. Northern Bear


BC
---
7. Capilano
13. Shaughnessy
16. Tobiano
26. Royal Colwood
27. Victoria Golf Club
28. Sagebrush
36. Greywolf
54. Chateau Whistler
56. Nicklaus North
59. Predator Ridge - Predator
60. Bear Mountain - Mountain
62. Salmon Arm
74. Big Sky
77. Eagle Ranch
78. Marine Drive
93. Radium Springs
97. Westwood Plateau

[Jason McNamara]

Prairies
---------
45. Dakota Dunes
84. Riverside
98. Pine Ridge


PQ
----
10. Royal Montreal - Blue
35. Le Maitre
44. MT Le Geant
55. MT Le Diable
72. Mount Bruno
85. Laval Sur-Le-Lac - Green
86. Beaconsfield


Maritimes
-------------
6. Highlands Links
12. Crowbush Cove
37. Dundarave
38. Humber Valley
53. Fox Harb'r
63. Bell Bay

[Jason McNamara]

Ontario
----------
1. The National *                               52. Cobble Beach
2. Hamilton                                        57. Oakdale *
3. St. George's *                                61. London Hunt
8. Beacon Hall *                                 64. St. Thomas G&CC
9. Muskoka Bay                                  65. Heron Point
11. Devil's Paintbrush *                      66. Essex
14. Westmount                                  67. Angus Glen - South *
15. Coppinwood *                              69. Osprey Valley - Hoot *
17. Devil's Pulpit *                              70. Deer Ridge
18. Oviinbyrd                                     71. Magna *
19. Toronto Golf Club *                      73. The Ridge at Manitou
20. Rocky Crest                                 75. Bayview *
22. Eagle's Nest                                 76. Wooden Sticks *
23. Taboo                                         79. Summit *
24. Bigwin Island                               80. Sunningdale - Thompson
29. Glen Abbey *                               81. Maple Downs *
31. Georgian Bay Club                        82. Black Bear Ridge
33. Mississauga G&CC                        83. Eagle Creek
34. Redtail                                        88. Lookout Point
39. Osprey Valley *                           89. Thornhill *
40. Weston *                                    90. Burlington *
42. King Valley *                               91. Cataraqui
43. Copper Creek *                           94. Mad River
46. Brantford G&CC                           95. Tarandowah
48. Deerhurst Highlands                     96. King's Forest
49. Scarboro *                                  99. Wildfire
51. Rosedale *                                 100. Bond Head - South *
            
            
* Indicates GTA, to the best of my ability.  I used the Wiki map, by which definition Burlington is GTA but Hamilton is not.  A dozen edits later (Preview doesn't work!!!):  Egregious errors will be corrected post haste; picayune errors less speedily if at all.  

[Dan Herrmann]

Glenn Abbey is 29.  Too high, too low, or just right?

I have a special place for Glen Abbey - it was the first good course I ever played.  Today, to me, it's an example of the best architecture of the 1970's.

[Bob Jenkins]

Jason,

Thank you for taking the time to do that. The only correction I have is that Wooden Sticks GC is in Ontario and Riverside is in Kamloops, BC and is a RTJ Sr. design. Interesting little course.

56 in Ontario! 6 or 7 in Quebec! It is obvious that there would be more good golf courses in Ontario but wow, that does seem like Ontario has done very well! But I do agree, only those who have played a lot of golf across the country can compare and I am certainly not among them.

[Will MacEwen]

Am I correct in that there is nothing from Ottawa in the Ontario/Quebec list?  Is Ottawa that dismal for golf?

Jason - thanks for doing this.  I think many of us are only really exposed to certain regions.

[Will MacEwen]

Bob - nitpick - Rivershore is in Kamloops.

Does Montebello not merit consideration?

[Jason McNamara]

Jason,

Thank you for taking the time to do that. The only correction I have is that Wooden Sticks GC is in Ontario and Riverside is in Kamloops, BC and is a RTJ Sr. design. Interesting little course.

Bob, happy to do so.  Thanks for the corrections; I have fixed Wooden Sticks. 

There's a Riverside CC in Sask., and I thought that was the one.  If you have the magazine and can confirm (I am not seeing it on the web - just working off Jeff's list), I will amend that as well.

Will, you're welcome.  So do I have Riverside correct?

[Jason McNamara]

Ontario list corrected, formatted to the extent possible, and tagged for GTA location as applicable.

(Bob, the glitch earlier was that I placed #76 on the BC list when I wanted to grab #77.  Fixed on -both- lists now.)

[Matt Bosela]

One more correction that I see Jason: Humber Valley, at least the course that's in the top 100, is in Newfoundland, not Ontario.

EDIT TO ADD:
You might also want to move Blackhawk onto the Alberta list, as it's in Edmonton.

[Bob Jenkins]

Jason,

My apologies. RiverSHORE is the RTJ Sr. course in Kamloops, not RiverSIDE. I am not sure where the latter may be located. In that case, there are 16 courses in BC in the top 100. Too many RIVER courses confuse a poor, old soul like me. There is another RIVER course in Burnaby, BC, Riverway, which is a fine Les Furber course built on the Fraser River delta. Riverway is a muni, not always in the best condition, but a very reasonable layout with some very good holes. The City financed part of the cost of construction by selling off the peat moss that was excavated from the site. The excavations led to some fine holes that really do have a "links" feel.

Bob J

[Jason McNamara]

One more correction that I see Jason: Humber Valley, at least the course that's in the top 100, is in Newfoundland, not Ontario.

Thanks - there is a Humber Valley in TO, but obviously I picked the wrong one.

You might also want to move Blackhawk onto the Alberta list, as it's in Edmonton.

Moved, thanks again.  Initially I thought it might make sense to have the western divisions be more geographical than political (W. Coast / Rockies / Steppe), then I realized that would be a bit tricky for me and so I punted.  Some settling of contents may occur.

[Will MacEwen]

Jason, I think you are still grading out around 96% or so.

Looking at the breakdowns by province makes me think about what Sean Leary said in terms of Canada having a top 100.  In BC, I don't see courses like Eagle Ranch and Chateau Whistler as being anything special.  Some good views and interesting terrain, but I think they could be swapped with about 6-8 like courses and it would be hard to distinguish them.  There seems to be a plethora of forgettable resort courses.  I imagine the last 20 or so Ontario courses are interchangeable.

I would certainly place Point Grey and Fraserview ahead of some of them.

As to which courses belong in the GTA, as a far eastern Ontarian it looks like pretty much all of them to me - anything in the 905,416 or 519 qualifies.  Maybe even the 705.   

[Tyler Kearns]

Prairies
---------
45. Dakota Dunes
84. Riverside


PQ
----
10. Royal Montreal - Blue
35. Le Maitre
44. MT Le Geant
55. MT Le Diable
72. Mount Bruno
85. Laval Sur-Le-Lac - Green
86. Beaconsfield


Maritimes
-------------
6. Highlands Links
12. Crowbush Cove
37. Dundarave
38. Humber Valley
53. Fox Harb'r
63. Bell Bay

Jason,

You forgot to include Pine Ridge in the prairies list (you have it in Ontario group), the only course from Manitoba  . That should change in a few years if a few new projects come to fruition (not all of Manitoba is flat and on clay).

TK

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