[Ronald Montesano]

It just occurred to me that we are still in praise, nay reverence! of a book that Tom Doak wrote in his 20s.  He may have been a bit prescient, but was he bulls-eye every time?  Perhaps for himself, but what does it say about the sheep in this flock that we nary miss an opportunity to mention something as a Doak .97 or a Doak 2/13s?

Sean, who made you the king of everything?  Does Canada merit a top 100 list?  Heck, Rhode Island can have a top 100 list if it wishes.  Not for us to disparage.  We CAN, however, disparage the choices, as a fair number of us have chosen to do.

Matt, you didn't mention Sagebrush, which I believe would trump a fair number of the ones you listed.  As a result, I wonder how much of Canada you know?  Come clean, man!  How many of Canada's courses have you played?  Are you Canadian?  Have you visited Canada?

[Stu Grant]

Sean, that's a fair question.  We have about 2,100 courses in this country so a top 100 list is picking up roughly the top 4.8% of all the courses.  Compare that to the United States where there are about 17,000 courses, therefore the top 100 represents less than the top 0.6%.

Comparing it another way, a Canada top 100 list would be equivalent to a top 800 list in the USA.

Interestingly, if you add up the number of courses on Golf Digest's "Best in State" rankings for 2009-10, you come up with....731 courses!  So the top 5% rule is in effect there too.

[Matthew MacKay]

Maple syrup running through my veins, Ronald.

I've been lucky enough to have played over 300 courses all across Canada, and over 70 that are on that list.

I didn't mention Sagebrush because I haven't played it. I suspect it very well could be mentioned along with the best we have.

btw, I am also a big fan of Lookout Point and Cherry Hill.

[Sean_A]

Sean: If one were making a trip to Canada to see only the 'must plays', (ie. Doak 7+) the list would be pretty short, imo. St. George's, Hamilton, Highlands Links, National, Toronto, Capilano, Banff, Jasper.

But, there are plenty of very good courses not far behind that are well worth seeing, and the diversity of geography in Canada creates so many different looks. All 100 courses on that list are not worth seeing, but at least half of them are, and at least a few others that didn't crack the list (ie. Kawartha).

Matt

Okay, you gave me the must sees, what are the other 40ish courses worth seeing if in the general vicinity? 

Monty

I guess my point about overplaying a top whatever list is the really top courses get drowned in a sea of courses which may be good, but in no way special.  In other words, good courses are a dime a dozen and so not worthy of a top whatever list.  These lists lose credibility if every Tom, Dick and Harry is mentioned.  Its another matter completely if one is doing a list of courses in a relatively small area worth seeing IF one happens to find himself there.  There is plenty of room for the "good but not special" crowd in this case.

Ciao 

[Ronald Montesano]

Matt,
Like a typical Canuck, you took my interrogation with aplomb and (hopefully) a smile.  I did want to establish you as an authority for this thread (or reveal you to be a charlatan) going forward.  Having played Cherry Hill and Lookout Point only further whets my appetite for courses like Hamilton, Devil's P and P, and other courses above the Niagara peninsula.

Speaking of the Niagara peninsula, have you played any of the fairly-recent builds (Royal Niagara, Hunters Pointe/LochnessLinks, Grand Niagara, Legends on the Niagara, Thundering Waters)?  Since I live on an island in the Niagara River, I consider myself trapped between two great golfing nations and a citizen of both.

[Ronald Montesano]

Sean, Agreed...Dick and Harry have no business being on Tom's list.  I would venture that Canada has enough for a top 75 list, compared with similar builds in the lower 48, so if 100 is stretching it a bit, then 50 is undervaluing the product.

There's a public course called Whirlpool in Niagara Falls, built by Stanley Thompson back in the day.  I'd venture it deserves a place on this list.  The problem is, we don't know how widely Scoregolf's fingers stretch when it comes to true rater substantiation.  As I said, most people don't care if you tuck an advertiser's course in one of the lesser decades on a list, the advertiser gets to crow about being top 100, and courses that truly deserve the spot either whine or go about their business.

[Jud_T]

The good news is there's likely to be at least 1 more must play in the near future. 

[Wayne_Kozun]

Score Golf does publish the raters - in the past the list has included at least a few GCA regulars.  Matt - weren't/aren't you on the list? 

The list was originally a top 15 list, it went to top 25, then top 50 and since 2000 it has been a top 100 list.  It is arguable as to whether 100 is too many.  They attempt to get rankers from all parts of the country and that can lead to regionalism - voters may overrank courses that are closer to home as a natural bias.  This is a possible reason for why a course like Bell Bay is well ranked whereas a Kawartha is way down the list as the list is somewhat dominated by Ontario courses, particularly those within 100 miles of Toronto.

[Sean_A]

Score Golf does publish the raters - in the past the list has included at least a few GCA regulars.  Matt - weren't/aren't you on the list? 

The list was originally a top 15 list, it went to top 25, then top 50 and since 2000 it has been a top 100 list.  It is arguable as to whether 100 is too many.  They attempt to get rankers from all parts of the country and that can lead to regionalism - voters may overrank courses that are closer to home as a natural bias.  This is a possible reason for why a course like Bell Bay is well ranked whereas a Kawartha is way down the list as the list is somewhat dominated by Ontario courses, particularly those within 100 miles of Toronto.

Wayne

I question the 100 mantra partly because of this list http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/andrew-cowan-dewar-mingay-thompson-canadas-top-golf-courses, partly because I don't like nice round numbers when talking about this stuff - tee hee and when I see such a short list of must sees it is difficult to believe they warrant a supporting cast of 90ish courses.

Ciao

[Jeff_Mingay]

Sean,

The Andrew/Cowan-Dewar/Thompson/Mingay list really needs to be updated and revised, too.

We should get to work on that, actually!

[Ronald Montesano]

It seems to me that the Toronto-Niagara area alone could chuck 30-odd courses into the mix, with Whirlpool (91-100), Cherry Hill (71-80) and Lookout Point (51-50) being my contributions for Golden-Agers.  I also believe that, of the newer courses, the Lochness Links course would deserve consideration for a slot in the 91-100 decade.  I don't believe that either course at Legends, Thundering Waters, Grand Niagara, Peninsula Lakes or Royal Niagara merit consideration.

What about courses near Barrie, Ontario?  We've played a conference championship at Tangle Creek, a Rene Muylaert design that I like a good bit.  There seems to be a course a kilometer along route 400 heading north to Barrie.

[Robert Thompson]

I'm on the panel and have played 98 out of the 100. There are about 110 raters on the panel, not enough in my estimation. However, no one got their rankings from "word of mouth." The raters have a fairly extensive web ranking system, so whether I agree with the final result or not, it is an accurate representation of the list.

I don't think it has anything to do with advertising -- courses rarely advertise in a national magazine.

Lookout should be much higher. Cherry Hill has great greens, but is flat. I think it warrants space on the list, and is a good, but not great course. Tom has chimed in on Essex. I thought the greens were great, the firm's work was terrific, but the course is flat as a table. It is, once again, good, but not great. I'd place it slightly ahead of places like St. Charles.

What's missing? Matt's bang on about Kawartha. Should be Top 50. I was thrilled to see Tarandowah get on the list, but it should be much higher. London Highlands is also one that should be there. I'm sure there are others -- Waskiseu in Saskatchewan apparently should be there, but it is one I've not seen.

I think Sagebrush has a good chance to rise as people see it... it isn't exactly the easiest place to get to.

I am certain that A)  ScoreGolf has some advertisers to satsify; B) They have no appreciation for Travis (Lookout Point and Cherry Hill should both be in the top 65); C)  They get much of their rankings from word of mouth.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I question the 100 mantra partly because of this list http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/andrew-cowan-dewar-mingay-thompson-canadas-top-golf-courses, partly because I don't like nice round numbers when talking about this stuff - tee hee and when I see such a short list of must sees it is difficult to believe they warrant a supporting cast of 90ish courses.

You make a good pont Sean - butI am sure you can appreciate the fact that Score Magazine is trying to sell magazines and having a top 100 list helps them sell more than having a top 50 list.

The Andrew-CowanDewar-Mingay-Thompson (let's call this the ACMT list for simplicity's sake) mentions a total of 29 courses.  Of these 19 are in Ontario - which is understandable since all of the guys are from Ontario and have likely seen more Ontario courses than courses in the rest of the country.  I agree that Ontario likely has the majority of top courses in the country but they have likely missed some excellent courses in other parts of the country - for example Victoria Golf Club and Royal Colwood (both in Vicotria, BC and design by A.V. Macan) would be excellent additions to the list.

There are a few other classic courses in Toronto that were overlooked in the ACMT list such as Summit, Weston, Oakdale, Mississauga and Bayview that are interesting as well.

But take the 29 courses listed there and add in a few other new courses like Coppinwood, Muskoka Bay, Sagebrush, Tobiano, Cobble Beach, Humber River and the courses I mentioned above and you have about 40 courses to keep you very busy.

In my opinion the biggest difference between the ACMT list and Score is the number of CCFAD courses and modern resort courses on the latter list.  The only courses on the ACMT list that fit this criteria are Crowbush, Eagle's Nest, Osprey Valley, Glen Abbey and Wolf Creek while there are a ton of these types of courses in the Score list.  It is my long held belief that courses of this type often make a splash after first opening and rank highly but later on they fall well down (or off) the list.  Examples of this would be Lake Joseph, Angus Glen (South) and Taboo to name just three.

[Wayne_Kozun]

It seems to me that the Toronto-Niagara area alone could chuck 30-odd courses into the mix, with Whirlpool (91-100), Cherry Hill (71-80) and What about courses near Barrie, Ontario?  We've played a conference championship at Tangle Creek, a Rene Muylaert design that I like a good bit.  There seems to be a course a kilometer along route 400 heading north to Barrie.

There are a few of these courses on the list - Mad River is 94 and Bond Head (South) is 100.  But I think they suffer from the fact that there are so many good courses in the Toronto area that they have to compete with.

[Gary Slatter]

I had started a little exercise trying to put together a twinning of courses on the Canadian 100 with US courses that I know or have played.  It's a bit tough, there are too many newer courses in the Canada Top 100, the older private clubs are a bit easier to match up.    Some, like Banff, Jasper, Brantford, Victoria and Highland Links are unique IMHO.

Although I feel Canada easily has a top 100 list, I would prefer a listing of the top 50 older courses (pre 1970) and the top 50 newer ones.  I think I've played the top 50 older ones.

[Robert Thompson]

Wayne and co: I had not seen Tobiano, Sagebrush (not open yet), Colwood or Victoria when the ACMT list was created. Jeff is right -- we should update it. I don't think it showed a regional bias -- just the fact that a majority of the great courses are in Ontario. I'd surely add Victoria, Sagebrush and Tobiano to our list, though I think I'd be in minority on the final one. Muskoka Bay would also have to be considered for inclusion -- as would Oviinbyrd (though i can't rightfully recall if we included it the first time.) I'd likely also add Tarandowah, one of my latest faves (and it costs less than $50 to play.)

I'm playing the new Goodwood course in a week, so perhaps it would warrant inclusion as well.

I question the 100 mantra partly because of this list http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/andrew-cowan-dewar-mingay-thompson-canadas-top-golf-courses, partly because I don't like nice round numbers when talking about this stuff - tee hee and when I see such a short list of must sees it is difficult to believe they warrant a supporting cast of 90ish courses.

You make a good pont Sean - butI am sure you can appreciate the fact that Score Magazine is trying to sell magazines and having a top 100 list helps them sell more than having a top 50 list.

The Andrew-CowanDewar-Mingay-Thompson (let's call this the ACMT list for simplicity's sake) mentions a total of 29 courses.  Of these 19 are in Ontario - which is understandable since all of the guys are from Ontario and have likely seen more Ontario courses than courses in the rest of the country.  I agree that Ontario likely has the majority of top courses in the country but they have likely missed some excellent courses in other parts of the country - for example Victoria Golf Club and Royal Colwood (both in Vicotria, BC and design by A.V. Macan) would be excellent additions to the list.

There are a few other classic courses in Toronto that were overlooked in the ACMT list such as Summit, Weston, Oakdale, Mississauga and Bayview that are interesting as well.

But take the 29 courses listed there and add in a few other new courses like Coppinwood, Muskoka Bay, Sagebrush, Tobiano, Cobble Beach, Humber River and the courses I mentioned above and you have about 40 courses to keep you very busy.

In my opinion the biggest difference between the ACMT list and Score is the number of CCFAD courses and modern resort courses on the latter list.  The only courses on the ACMT list that fit this criteria are Crowbush, Eagle's Nest, Osprey Valley, Glen Abbey and Wolf Creek while there are a ton of these types of courses in the Score list.  It is my long held belief that courses of this type often make a splash after first opening and rank highly but later on they fall well down (or off) the list.  Examples of this would be Lake Joseph, Angus Glen (South) and Taboo to name just three.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Rob -by regional bias I just meant that you have seen all of the significant courses in Ontario but you guys may not have seen all such courses in other parts of the country - Colwood and Victoria being perfect examples of this.  What about the private courses in Calgary like Glencoe and Calgary G&CC?

[Ryan Admussen]

I haven't played Calgary but I don't think Glencoe is on the same level as the top private courses in Ontario

Robert.. What did you think of Priddis?

[Robert Thompson]

Wayne -- I've played almost all of the Score Top 100, including all of the courses in Calgary, Saskatoon, Victoria, etc. My one area where I haven't played as much is Quebec. Just the top ones in the Montreal area there.

Ryan -- Loved Priddis. A real surprise and a major step ahead of Glencoe.

[Harris Nepon]

I just had the pleasure of playing Stanley Thompson's Westmount (#14) today and it may be one of my favorite courses I'm lucky enough to play in Ontario. IMHO it should be ranked higher. I've played St. Georges, and I know this is bold, but I like Westmount better. Haven't played Hamilton, playing Beacon Hall this week, but overall I'm huge fan of Westmount. I'm still new at this so have difficulties explaining the architecture, but the course is phenomenal. The routing up and down the valleys. A lot of variety off the tee, it's not just bang a driver every hole. The greens are HUGE with a significant amount of slope in them to provide many challenging pin positions. The par 3’s are a blast. The longest plays 200 yards and the shortest is 147 from the backs. They are all very tricky especially the 12th. The par 5 11th is maybe one of the best par 5's I've played.

I don't have pictures, and I've done this course no justice with my post, but thought I needed to put a bug into some people’s heads, that in the Waterloo/Kitchener area in Ontario there is a phenomenal course that you should be trying to play. 

[Greg Murphy]

Nice to see Riverside mentioned. It's a deserving course. Many of the courses I've played from the list (National; Banff Springs; Devil's Pulpit; Wolf Creek; Blackhawk; Sagebrush; Kananaskis-Mount Kidd; Stewart Creek; Dakota Dunes; Predator Ridge - Predator; Bell Bay; Essex; Heritage Point; Riverside; Mad River) have a wow factor that courses like Riverside and Essex do not, but for repeat play, you could not really ask for much more than what those courses have to offer.

[Gary Slatter]

Robert:  I played Priddis with members and they didn't like it.  I thought it was OK with two good holes.

Harris: Westmount is great course, at first I did not like the new holes but they have aged well.  Excellent couple of short fours, for Canadian Open could be a fine 71 par.

[Ian Andrew]

Wayne,

I spent two years on Muskoka Bay – and while I’m proud of many things – I know its not top 10

Ronald,

No architects allowed on the panel. I have not been allowed to vote since 1994. I actually received all the voting that year, and it was very regional.

Sean,

There’s a reason why we did 25, when we did our list.

Wayne,

Your dead on, they won’t add people from Ontario because they dominate the panel already. The problem is that most people don’t see enough and it’s a big country. They need people who see more for better perspective.

Jeff,

Ben won’t do it, so it’s a dead issue.

Wayne,

You think our list is because we’ve seen more in Ontario. I’ve seen almost everything from one coast to the other. The best golf is in Ontario. Other than the highlights all the second tier golf outside of Ontario is forgettable. The latter half of the 50 should have more Ontario courses.

Ryan,

Not a fan of Glencoe, whereas Calgary is great.


Places I would have voted for:

Twin Rivers, Newfoundland
Islesmere, Montreal
Royal Quebec, Quebec City
Royal Ottawa
Ottawa Hunt
Kawartha (top 25 for me)
Waskesiu, Saskatchewan
UBC, Vancouver

[Matthew MacKay]

Sean: here are a few courses that, while not worth a plane ride to see, are worth the drive if one were in the general area. You wouldn't be dissapointed...

-Devil's Paintbrush, Blackhawk, Muskoka Bay, Westmount, Beacon Hall, Brantford, Cataraqui, Coppinwood, Dakota Dunes, Eagles Nest, Lookout Point, Mount Bruno, Oviinbyrd, Redtail, Rocky Crest, Scarboro, St. Thomas, Shaughnessy

Based on other's opinions whom I respect,Tobiano, Royal Colwood, Victoria, and Humber Valley would be worth a drive as well.

Ronald: Most of the newer courses in Niagara don't really turn my crank. I like Whirlpool, but not enough to make the 90 min drive. I haven't played Lochness Links in a long time, but I keep hearing good things. In general, there is a lot of decent golf in Niagara, and some great deals.

Wayne: I'm not on the panel, although I'm pretty sure I've seen more courses, in more provinces, than many of the panellists. I agree with Ian that it would be beneficial for a panellist to have the context of having seen courses throughout Canada. The regionalism skews the results. As Ian rightly pointed out, I think without the regionalism we would actually see many more Ontario courses on the list. ie. Kawartha, Cherry Hill, Sarnia, Islington, Galt, Cutten, Beverly, Highland, etc.

[Matt Bosela]

It seems to me that the Toronto-Niagara area alone could chuck 30-odd courses into the mix, with Whirlpool (91-100), Cherry Hill (71-80) and Lookout Point (51-50) being my contributions for Golden-Agers.  I also believe that, of the newer courses, the Lochness Links course would deserve consideration for a slot in the 91-100 decade.  I don't believe that either course at Legends, Thundering Waters, Grand Niagara, Peninsula Lakes or Royal Niagara merit consideration.

Ron,

As a Niagara resident, I can honestly say that outside of Lookout Point and maybe Cherry Hill after the recent work done by Ian Andrew, there isn't anything in the region that deserves a spot on a list of the top 100 courses in Canada.  Whirlpool is in very rough shape these days and even if they cleaned it up (improve conditioning, trim trees, etc), it likely wouldn't deserve anything more than an 'honorable mention'.  Even my home club (St. Catharines GCC) is trying to get more Score raters to come and take a look at our course for possible inclusion on a future list - I love my club and the conditioning is superb but architecturally, it just isn't worthy of that type of acclaim either.

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