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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #100 on: August 23, 2010, 07:57:44 PM »
Sean,

I find your reasoning to be lacking. You say courses are always changing. That is true. However, the changes in the recent past were not targeted at adjusting for a ball that travels 25 yards farther than the previous popular ball. The courses or clubs that are hurt go way beyond the ANGCs of the world that can and do change their classic designs to combat the length of the modern ball. A ball that used to land in the rough next to the adjoining fairway, now has the capability to travel 25 yards into that fairway. The majority of the clubs that have a problem like that don't have the money to move fairways, or make other adjustments. I suppose the best thing they can do is grow trees to provide some protection.

The claim that the added distance is only an issue with the small percentage of tour pros and top amateurs is totally blind to the facts. When, the ProV came out, the largest mass migration in the history of the sport to a new ball occurred. Who made this migration? It seems pretty clear to me that the players that were playing Titleist balata balls made the migration. The technology of the ProV was available in the Strata, Bridgestone, and other balls, but for the most part Titleist loyalists ignored that until the ProV appeared. With them came 1000s of players who are now hitting it 25 yards farther into adjoining fairways.

Therefore, IMO this is not the small problem that many here represent it as.

Coffee is brewing Sean, how's your sniffer?


Garland

I don't take any issue with equipment making the ball go further - never have, but that isn't the issue so far as I am concerned.  I am concerned with how we react to equipment improvemnets  and I take issue with folks insisting that 1) There is a problem with this and to what degree the problem exists and 2) The problem is with equipment rather than the decision-making of club members/course owners.  

People automatically assume that because the ball goes longer than previously that the problem is the ball.  I see the other side of the coin and say why isn't the reaction to the ball the problem?   My reasoning for this attitude of making club members and course owners the primaries in this argument is because there will always be some new invention down the pipe that will need to be dealt with.  The USGA will necessarily be a few steps behind because they are seriously out gunned in terms of money, motivation and skill. Dealing with the ball now and pretending it is a solution is a pipe dream, a finger in the dyke.  For long term preservation of courses it is far better to get people bought into the concept that they should not react by altering courses because of equipment. Unfortunately, the USGA may be the worst culprit in terms of stamping changes as a reaction to equipment.  As said before, folks who think ball control is the answer to their prayers just aren't thinking the entire situation through.  They are concentrating on a short term solution which is far from a given to act as a preserver of classic courses.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 08:03:38 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #101 on: August 23, 2010, 10:05:52 PM »
...

What is an example of a Golden Age course, other than Merion by Nicklaus, that was truly taken apart?  Or do they avoid such situations? 

Naturally, Bill, there are practically no examples of Golden Age courses being "truly taken apart..."  And there is a simple reason.  Before any Golden Age course hosts a major or a national championship, there are years, perhaps a decade or more, of selection and preparation.  And archtiectural changes.  Lengthening, pinching fairways, adjusting bunkers, etc.  There are no surprises or accidents when they host a major, or any elite-level event.  They have already changed the course, in anticipation of exactly the kind of play they need to accomodate.  The kind of play that the original architect could never have imagined in 1918, or even 1951.

This does not prove that there is "no problem."  This proves that there is a problem, to the extent that it is proven by the need to make radical changes to existing, classic architecture.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #102 on: August 23, 2010, 11:15:22 PM »

The one consistency is that there is no consistency in golfing equipment from the start. Thus exposing the only flaw in the Game of Golf.

Today we are paying for the lack of controlling the technology in Golf

Melvyn

PS How can anyone who loves the game knowingly accept their score when it has been enhanced by the equipment they use.


Do you play featheries only? How about hickory shafts? Do you use sand wedges? This whole technology argument seems rather pointless to me? What era of technology should we go back to? In my opinion it is never going to happen. And if it does people will hate it. Sure, perhaps Tour pros won't go as low anymore, but the average golfer will hate it. So, will many higher level amateurs like myself if there are two sets of rules. So, I'll end using a more difficult set of equipment but compete against others with a less difficult set in club events. The whole argument is tedious as Mr. Brightly said. And I actually think that Smyers is right that architects need to adjust.

Mr Kline,

You are not the average golfer. I will thank you not to speak for the average golfer.

Sincerely,

The average golfer
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ben Voelker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #103 on: August 23, 2010, 11:43:45 PM »


Mr Kline,

You are not the average golfer. I will thank you not to speak for the average golfer.

Sincerely,

The average golfer

[/quote]

Garland,

I am quite the average golfer and I don't see any reason why I would want to play a reduced flight ball.  I have a hard enough time as it is and don't see the benefit to me in playing a ball that someone claims is going to make me worse.  I certainly don't want to be playing hickory shafts and guttas on a regular basis.

As an average golfer, is that what you prefer (when you play)?

Ben

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #104 on: August 24, 2010, 12:02:22 AM »
Ben,

What ball did you play before the ProV?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ben Voelker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #105 on: August 24, 2010, 12:20:44 AM »
I'm not sure I've ever played the ProV to be honest, except for balls I might find lingering around the munis I play.  I don't have that kind of pocketbook.  Prior to 2002, I was probably mostly playing the low end Stratas if I remember right.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #106 on: August 24, 2010, 12:39:52 AM »
Mr. Kline was using a bit of hyperbole when he asked about gutta percha and hickory. I don't believe he intended to imply that the discussion was about the average golfer returning to those things and being unhappy. I do believe he might have been referring to things like steel shafts and blades. Perhaps persimmon woods.

My interest is in durability and consistency. Therefore, steel shafts and blades are fine by me. I think the average golfer will do just as well with them as with the latest set of perimeter weighted "game improvement" irons. I do think it is best to move beyond persimmon woods. Just as players would break hickory shafts, I have broken the heads off three wooden drivers. Therefore, I will play metal woods. I don't ever intend on getting a 460 cc beetle on a stick. I'm not sure what Mr. Kline's issue with the sand wedge is. As far as I can see, the top players ignore the bounce on the wedge and get their bounce by laying the club wide open. I played a beautiful explosion shot today with a wide open 9 iron. That is a subject Mr. Kline knows better about. However, the truly average player who has trouble breaking 100 hates to get in a sand trap, because in all likelyhood he won't be very successful with the shot no matter how advanced his sand wedge.

As far as balls are concerned, I usually play whatever I find. I don't want a ball that one bad swing from a average golfer can ruin, so I have avoided the balata covered balls most of my life until it became no longer necessary as they were no longer produced. When I started, two piece solid balls were pretty new, and some would crack in half. Clearly I don't want that.

So as long as this average golfer has consistent durable equipment, he is a happy camper.

Now if they would only invent balls I can't lose!

That's a ball improvement the average golfer can really make good use of.

By the way Ben, if you answered that you used Titleist before the ProV, then you have a history of choosing limited flight balls, and I don't know why you have become so discerning now.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #107 on: August 24, 2010, 12:46:45 AM »
I'm not sure I've ever played the ProV to be honest, except for balls I might find lingering around the munis I play.  I don't have that kind of pocketbook.  Prior to 2002, I was probably mostly playing the low end Stratas if I remember right.

There you go Ben. As long as you stick to the cheap balls, I don't believe any one will be limiting your ball flight. It is the expensive balls that need their flight limited.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #108 on: August 24, 2010, 05:04:37 AM »

Gentleman

I am not advocating a Dark Age but I am more concerned that within a generation we will have lost all that remains of the great designs that inspired thousands if not millions to take up golf. The reason being that it is more important for a super minority to hit a ball for the pleasure of achieving distance. What ever happened to the fun of navigating a course around the hazards and contours set out by the designers, the real pleasure of the game IMHO.

IMHO that does not seem a fair trade.

I care not if we roll back the ball and/or clubs, I want to see our great courses protected now, ‘not after the horse as bolted’.

‘We have the technology’, but alas not the unity of purpose to save that which is most precious to many on here and
Golfers worldwide, GCA.

I am not advocating an immediate change, but I would like to see open and clear dialog by the powers that be, that first there is a problem and that we MUST resolve.  Have open debates between the authorities and the clubs starting on a Regional and National basis. Of open trials on various options regards the equipment (ball and clubs) with clear publication of the results.

My ideal solution would be to utilise technology to generate a set of uniform standard clubs and ball that reboots the game to the distance the game was playing at the turn of the 19th Century. To reinvent those great courses based upon the way the designer intended. As I said that’s my preference because I feel it will give as much of a challenge and thrill as we get today but with the added knowledge that we have saved the great courses at the heart of the Game of Golf. They will no longer be sacrificed for the ego of a hand full of players so bent upon their own pleasure to realise the damage they are doing to our game.

I am certainly not seeking to curtail the pleasure, thrill, challenge or excitement of the game. Nevertheless when a hand full of players can drive a ball on to the Green from the Tee on a conventional Par 4 negating all the hazards and traps, then surly something must send out alarm bells.

I am not suggesting the reintroduction of the Hickory shafted club or the Gutty ball but new equipment that plays to those distances of the early 20th Century to rejuvenate our great courses, minimise costs on modifying old and new to accommodate the hand full of big hitters. Anyway one day certain courses will just run out of land and perhaps we will see the norm being a 10,000 yard course – think of the cost and environmental problems that brings – hope you have deep pockets because if we are not careful we may just have private clubs left for those who can afford to play the game. Could it be that within two – three centuries we have come full circle, the game again only being played by the super-rich.

Don’t be a casualty of the SS Golf heading for its appointment with the Iceberg of indifference.

Melvyn   

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #109 on: August 24, 2010, 06:49:38 AM »
Garland - my point was trying to decipher which technology improvements are acceptable and which aren't. The sand wedge was a significant leap forward in technology making the game easier but wasn't banned. More lofted wedges (60 and 64 degree) haven't been banned or even considered being banned. But surely they play into the ability of guys to hit it really long and score low. Why only be concerned with technology related to length.

Why do something because a fraction of a percent of golfers perhaps make a course obsolete? I'm certainly not one of those. My average drive is about 265 yards (probably 15 yards farther because of the Pro V) unless I get massive roll or have wind at my back. My irons go no farther because of the Pro V. Almost all of the other 99% of golfers are never going to play the courses being affected anyway. Perhaps we should roll back the ball and make all those courses public access so the rest of us can see what the big deal is about.  :)

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #110 on: August 24, 2010, 07:25:22 AM »

Steve

Come over here nearly all our courses are playable even though mostly private clubs. Its the 'Golfing Way' is it not, pay your money enjoy the course.

As for clubs, like the ball they need controlling - length is not what its about, its about realising you are playing golf and not on a Driving Range. Distance is not always King, but I feel you need to be a golfer to understand that.

Melvyn 

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #111 on: August 24, 2010, 08:07:06 AM »
...

What is an example of a Golden Age course, other than Merion by Nicklaus, that was truly taken apart?  Or do they avoid such situations? 

Naturally, Bill, there are practically no examples of Golden Age courses being "truly taken apart..."  And there is a simple reason.  Before any Golden Age course hosts a major or a national championship, there are years, perhaps a decade or more, of selection and preparation.  And archtiectural changes.  Lengthening, pinching fairways, adjusting bunkers, etc.  There are no surprises or accidents when they host a major, or any elite-level event.  They have already changed the course, in anticipation of exactly the kind of play they need to accomodate.  The kind of play that the original architect could never have imagined in 1918, or even 1951.

This does not prove that there is "no problem."  This proves that there is a problem, to the extent that it is proven by the need to make radical changes to existing, classic architecture.

I'm guessing this started with Oakland Hills, where RTJ narrowed the fairways (great "single file" quote by somebody, maybe Jimmy Demaret) and deepened the bunkers. 

We've had countless threads on reining in the ball, but I don't think anybody thinks it's going to happen.  I used to get worked up about it.

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #112 on: August 24, 2010, 01:15:17 PM »
My golf is now limited to a few holes with students, and charity fundraisers.
The fundraisers are scrambles, and the tee package usually includes a sleeve
of Pinnacles or the like.  I hit a Maxfli Noodle about 20 past a ProV1, and that comes in handy in a scramble ;D

Found a sleeve of Pinnacle Golds in among my old Maxfli HTs, and hit a few.  All three were past my ProV1 on the first hole,
and any time I hit a good one, it was past the new ball.  Not sure when the Gold was released, but my dad was alive (mid 90's).

Back then, nobody thought you could get a Pinnacle to spin.  Out of work aerospace engineers found a home in golf R&D and beat the USGA.
Bridgestone for one, was so good at quality control, that they could build their balls within the overall distance standard margin of error, thus, in effect, moving past the standard desired.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #113 on: August 24, 2010, 02:28:06 PM »
This is clearly a matter of taste.  The question, which is faced by all sports, is when is a game "mature"?  Put simply, most games evolve from their beginnings.  Using the excellent analogy provided by J.M. Evensky, baseball started with underhand pitching.  It went through the dead ball era, eliminated the spitter and other trick pitches etc.  But ultimately it determined that wooden bats, a "live ball", bases at 90 feet a mound at 60 ft 6 inches worked.  Thus while there are changes around the edges, the game is essentially the same and it is played similarly to the game that was played years ago.  (don't get me started on the DH, an aberration).  Pro basketball on the other hand continues to tinker.  while the shot clock came in the eatly 5o's along with goal tending, 3 seconds and the like, the advent of the 3 point shot shows it is still evolving.

The question is, where is golf?  In tennis, continued equipment changes have led to an increasingly boring game at the tournament level as the bigger and better weighted rackets allow western grip groundstrokes that have eliminated most net play.  The players are fabulous, but their ability to display a wider variety of skills has been limited by uncontrolled equipment innovation.  However that innovation may have made the game easier for the average player.  I suggest it has not made it more popular.   In golf, the problem is not the average player.  But I submit that the new balls and clubs allow the great players the ability to swing harder and thus hit the ball much further.  This in and of itself may not be a bad thing except that it requires longer courses to test the various aspects of their games.  So one either accepts that the challenge will be reduced as long shots to greens disappear or one builds longer and/or tighter courses to reintroduce the tee to green challenge at the championship level.  The problem is that the rest of the population plays the same courses.  Of course we can move up to more reasonable tees, but the cost of maintaining the course increases.  Length of rounds also are likely to increase.  All for the sake of allowing continued innovation to sell clubs and balls.  When Snead (or George Bayer) hit a drive with the old clubs and balls spectators knew it was a long hit.  Nicklaus was devastating.  I shudder to think what those playes would have done with this equipment.  But the point is, a ball doesn't have to go 325 to be a big hit.  It is a relative issue so long as the norms are understood.  We are probably too late to put the genie back in the bottle and as a result, some great courses will be disfigured and others will not be used for championships.  But it is perfectly appropriate for a rules making body to decide that its game is mature and draw a line in the sand.  I would appreciate it if the line were drawn and enforced now; the USGA thinks it has been.  I only regret that they are woefully late to the party.

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #114 on: August 24, 2010, 03:20:07 PM »
Shelly, how dare you add the voice of reason to this debate??

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #115 on: August 24, 2010, 03:29:28 PM »

Shelly, how dare you add the voice of reason to this debate??


I don't see his voice being added to this debate.I see it more as trying to start a different,more reasoned debate.

Simply put,should the game of golf be considered "mature"?If yes,then where would one draw the I and B line?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #116 on: August 24, 2010, 03:33:03 PM »
This is clearly a matter of taste.  The question, which is faced by all sports, is when is a game "mature"?  Put simply, most games evolve from their beginnings.  Using the excellent analogy provided by J.M. Evensky, baseball started with underhand pitching.  It went through the dead ball era, eliminated the spitter and other trick pitches etc.  But ultimately it determined that wooden bats, a "live ball", bases at 90 feet a mound at 60 ft 6 inches worked.  Thus while there are changes around the edges, the game is essentially the same and it is played similarly to the game that was played years ago.  (don't get me started on the DH, an aberration).  Pro basketball on the other hand continues to tinker.  while the shot clock came in the eatly 5o's along with goal tending, 3 seconds and the like, the advent of the 3 point shot shows it is still evolving.

The question is, where is golf?  In tennis, continued equipment changes have led to an increasingly boring game at the tournament level as the bigger and better weighted rackets allow western grip groundstrokes that have eliminated most net play.  The players are fabulous, but their ability to display a wider variety of skills has been limited by uncontrolled equipment innovation.  However that innovation may have made the game easier for the average player.  I suggest it has not made it more popular.   In golf, the problem is not the average player.  But I submit that the new balls and clubs allow the great players the ability to swing harder and thus hit the ball much further.  This in and of itself may not be a bad thing except that it requires longer courses to test the various aspects of their games.  So one either accepts that the challenge will be reduced as long shots to greens disappear or one builds longer and/or tighter courses to reintroduce the tee to green challenge at the championship level.  The problem is that the rest of the population plays the same courses.  Of course we can move up to more reasonable tees, but the cost of maintaining the course increases.  Length of rounds also are likely to increase.  All for the sake of allowing continued innovation to sell clubs and balls.  When Snead (or George Bayer) hit a drive with the old clubs and balls spectators knew it was a long hit.  Nicklaus was devastating.  I shudder to think what those playes would have done with this equipment.  But the point is, a ball doesn't have to go 325 to be a big hit.  It is a relative issue so long as the norms are understood.  We are probably too late to put the genie back in the bottle and as a result, some great courses will be disfigured and others will not be used for championships.  But it is perfectly appropriate for a rules making body to decide that its game is mature and draw a line in the sand.  I would appreciate it if the line were drawn and enforced now; the USGA thinks it has been.  I only regret that they are woefully late to the party.

That's how I see it.  The USGA (and R&A) have or will cap distance at this point, just like they banned square grooves).  But I see no movement toward a rolling back of ball specs.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #117 on: August 24, 2010, 03:36:59 PM »

Shelly, how dare you add the voice of reason to this debate??


I don't see his voice being added to this debate.I see it more as trying to start a different,more reasoned debate.

Simply put,should the game of golf be considered "mature"?If yes,then where would one draw the I and B line?

i think the game needs a couple hundred more years to mature ::) ::) ::)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 08:06:03 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #118 on: August 24, 2010, 03:43:06 PM »

...
.

However, these balls that go farther enhance a players ability more as their driver swing speed rises above 85 mph, which is approximately the speed where the new balls decreased spin starts allowing longer drives.


Garland

Have you found evidence for this?  I haven't seen it proven and i haven't seen any real pattern within the stats on the PGA tour i.e. over the past decade or so, the weakest players on tour have gained about the same distance as the strongest.

I haven't looked at the LPGA tour stats.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #119 on: August 24, 2010, 03:48:49 PM »

That's how I see it.  The USGA (and R&A) have or will cap distance at this point, just like they banned square grooves).  But I see no movement toward a rolling back of ball specs.

But yet we see the USGA continue testing of a new shorter ball, and going to the trouble to have testers sign confidentiality agreements.
We have a precedent of the USGA waiting out the patent limit and then reverting a technology to before the invention with the wedge grooves. Why would you say they are not planning on following that precedent with the ball? We have seen them establish a limit on the ball in the past. Why would you say they are not planning on getting back to the previously established limits once the patents expire?

BTW, the questions are addressed to all, not just Bill.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #120 on: August 24, 2010, 06:36:07 PM »
Based upon the absence of published data for the USGA's tests (some of which occurred years ago), I see these ball tests as data for future public relations stances. They'll massage the numbers to "prove" that it's not the ball going further, thereby demonstrating that rollback advocates like Mr. Brown are just a bunch of crackpots.

And in the meantime, the USGA will grow 8" rough at Merion and order the club to stop watering the fairways and greens in the last week of May. That way, par will be protected by the protectors of the game. . .

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #121 on: August 25, 2010, 12:57:20 PM »

...
.

However, these balls that go farther enhance a players ability more as their driver swing speed rises above 85 mph, which is approximately the speed where the new balls decreased spin starts allowing longer drives.


Garland

Have you found evidence for this?  I haven't seen it proven and i haven't seen any real pattern within the stats on the PGA tour i.e. over the past decade or so, the weakest players on tour have gained about the same distance as the strongest.

I haven't looked at the LPGA tour stats.

Do you think anybody on Tour has a swing speed less than 85 mph?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #122 on: August 25, 2010, 02:07:18 PM »

...
.

However, these balls that go farther enhance a players ability more as their driver swing speed rises above 85 mph, which is approximately the speed where the new balls decreased spin starts allowing longer drives.


Garland

Have you found evidence for this?  I haven't seen it proven and i haven't seen any real pattern within the stats on the PGA tour i.e. over the past decade or so, the weakest players on tour have gained about the same distance as the strongest.

I haven't looked at the LPGA tour stats.

Obviously no one on the professional tours swings anywhere near as slow as 85 mph with a driver. The stats were gleaned from various golf magazines and websites. The actual references are in some previous thread about the ball here on gca.com.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #123 on: August 25, 2010, 03:00:02 PM »
Garland

Yes, I reckon the lowest swing speed would be close to 105mph.

But the Quintavalla report below studied from 90-125 mph and the plots of distance vs club head speed are linear with slight drop in gradient due to the COR dropping.

http://www.usga.org/news/2006/April/Speed-Vs--Distance--Do-Long-Hitters-Get-An-Unfair-Benefit-/

There was no comparison with a wound ball here though.  But if the transition from wound to solid ball was advantageous to the strongest players, wouldn't it have shown up in the stats: Figure A-2 and A-3 in Appendix 3. 

A comparison with LPGA tour would be illustrative too...but it's a lot of work.

can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dear Steve Smyers
« Reply #124 on: August 25, 2010, 03:12:39 PM »
Paul,

The paper has had quite a bit of discussion here. A few of us consider it a grand obfuscation.

The difference is in the aerodynamics of  old vs. new balls. The old balls had lots of spin, so they would take off, have the spin cause them to rise significantly, and then fall much steeper to the earth. By flattening out the trajectory with low spin is how the tour pros gained around 25 yards according to the figure the USGA gave Tom Paul.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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