[Trey Stiles]

1st some background :

I own a small town course in East Texas ( Woodland Hills ) , the course was built in 1973 ( Don January & Billy Martindale ) , has small    ( 90,000 sf ) push up greens ( relatively flat with drop offs )  The topography is quite hilly and the routing generally plays from ridge to ridge ( sometimes so much that blind shots are introduced ). Corridors are generally very narrow ( property line to property line averages 260' ) and mature pine trees are at every property line. Yardage is 6600 from the back tees , Par 72 ... The course has survived for 37 years with no bunkers ... The course just scrapes by with modest rounds , modest fees and very modest budget ... I currently have a NNN lease in place for a couple more years . If for some reason my lessee does not renew or purchase , I will get it back and and I am contemplating a modest renovation to include :
- Conversion from Mutated / Contaminated Tifdwarf to Champion via No Till method
- Introduction of Pine Straw / Mulch in tough to grow / high traffic areas / keep out areas
- General deferred maintenance items like cart paths , amenities , minor drainage , minor landscape , sod , RR tie R&M , ect
- Adding a modest bunker scheme of 18 - 22 Sand Bunkers

At this point , my thought is that I want flat bottoms , 100% mowable , small greenside bunkers , slightly larger fairway framing bunkers.

I'm thinking that we need to avoid extending " the 70's look "  and we have an opportunity to do something more classic and still work with my greens.

If I could afford it ( the budget will be very modest ) , I would hire an architect , and we would do them between jobs ... If we can't figure out the budget , I'll just do the olde ,  dump topsoil here , wave my hands at an operator , climb on the sand pro and get after it.

Can some of you guys steer me to some resources / links / photos / ect. to help me visualize a bunker style that would enhance the experience for our golfers ? ... What am I missing   

Thanks 

[Bill_McBride]

Trey, check out our course, built in 2006 from the ruins left by Hurricane, for $3.5M.  The bunkering is similar to what you describe.

http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/pensacola-country-club

Good luck with your project.  How far are you from the south end of Houston?

[Peter Pallotta]

Trey - thanks for this thread, it is fun to read a real question about a real world golf course from a person whose livelihood depends on the answer.  Sorry, I don't have anything to offer except best wishes.  But a question: has the course gotten by without bunkers because the routing and the landforms and the greens all worked together well enough without them?  Or do you feel instead that the course has long needed bunkers to improve/maximize strategic interest and challenge?

Peter   

[PCCraig]

Trey:

This is a very neat question and one I'm surprised hasn't gotten more responses.

One idea that I had if I owned a course would be to build some bold grass bunkers like the ones at Lawsonia (see the "courses by country" tab for Ran's review and search tool to find some photo threads). I'm no expert, but I would guess they are somewhat inexpensive to build and maintain, and they really make the holes and strategy POP. But then again it doesn't work for everyone or course.

Is it ok to ask which course this is exactly? I would just be curious to see what you're working with.

[Donnie Beck]

Some pictures would help

[Mike Nuzzo]

Hey Trey
Pictures would be great.

Bill
Do you remember that Wolf Point was built for less than the cost of your renovation?
Cheers

[Bill_McBride]

Hey Trey
Pictures would be great.

Bill
Do you remember that Wolf Point was built for less than the cost of your renovation?
Cheers

Mike, that's just one reason you and Don are so highly recommended!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Trey

Read you post I would suggest the best option you have for your course would be deep pot bunkers. They work. They look good. they test the golfers resolve and his skill and of course they can hurt the shot if it goes wrong – its what bunkers are made to do right!

Attached below are some photos of bunkers, the smaller deeper pot type. I have seen many shallow bunkers but my opinion is that they offer assistance rather than represent the traps they are meant to be. I feel the following bunkers work well because they are traps and require commitment to get out of. So there it is, are you going to offer easy shallow bunkers (which IMHO are not worth the money to construct lets alone maintain) or give the golfers the challenge he is there looking for.

If ever in doubt about bunkers make them deep. Another reason is that it gives the golfer an excuse if he blows the shot which a shallow bunker will not offer.  But then you must ask yourself do you like a firm hand shake or a wet weak one - it’s the same IMO with bunkers. 

Hope the following selection of photos help.

Strath Bunker (with ken Brown)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/golf/8826230.stm

The Road Hole Bunker



The New Course Bunker First Green


Prestwick GC 15th Bunker


Leven 5th Green Bunkers


Elie “nd Hole approach Bunkers


Have fun

Melvyn

[Trey Stiles]

Thanks for the responses guys ,

Bill ... I love the look of PCC , of course much flatter than my course , and your greens have more movement ( which I love ). I think part of my challenge will be to get the bunkers to fit with my boring greens.

Peter ... The course has " survived " all this time without bunkers , we occasionally get someone comment about the lack of bunkers , but our golfers expectations are generally less demanding.  We have an interesting little market in Nacogdoches . 30,000 people in the primary market with our course and Piney Woods CC sharing a property line. 100,000 population in the extended market which includes Crown Colony ( excellent ) , Lufkin CC and Neches Pines. What makes our deal work is that we have been able to operate on very thin budgets , have minimal debt , and are the only daily fee option within 20 miles ... My objective is to improve course perception , build event business , get ahead of golfers expectations a bit , and recapture the daily fee market that dropped off post 9/11.

Pat ... The course is Woodland Hills Golf Club ... I love the grass bunker concept. I did some about 5 years ago , but when I leased the course , the operator chose to mow them as fairway. I'm sure he got some comments from some of the regulars who did not understand what we were trying to do. I was busy on other projects at the time and did a poor job of communicating the grass bunker concept .

Mike / Donnie ... Yes , Pictures would be great. I just don't happen to have any in electronic format. I'll take some the next time I'm there and add to the post.

This course has been alot of fun over the years , it's been an in house ongoing project , redoing select greens , miles of drainage , lots of tee expansion , cart paths , erosion repair , and with the help of Mike Caldwell , converted the irrigation system from single row QC to double row Automatic.

In this market , it's always hard to justify major capital improvements ( anything over $ 5K is major in this market   ) , it's impossible to quantify whether your improvement dollars protect existing business , expand existing participation , or draw new business , but I've always benefitted from giving the golfer a little more than his/her expectations and having a great story to tell.

[Bill_McBride]

Pat ... The course is Woodland Hills Golf Club ... I love the grass bunker concept. I did some about 5 years ago , but when I leased the course , the operator chose to mow them as fairway. I'm sure he got some comments from some of the regulars who did not understand what we were trying to do. I was busy on other projects at the time and did a poor job of communicating the grass bunker concept .

Trey, those grass bunkers might add even more interest if they were mowed pretty tight.  Your players would have to make some decisions on how to play shots around the green (Putt?  Chip? Pitch?) instead of just grabbing that SW and hacking it out.  They would cost a lot less than sand bunkers to maintain but still add a lot of variety and challenge.

[Trey Stiles]

Melvyn - Thanks for the endorsement of deep pot bunkers and the pictures .... I'm pretty sure the stack sod will not last long in our fine sand soils and grasses , we did several @ Magnolia Creek Golf Links in League City and they were ( let's say ) challenging to maintain  ... they deteriorate pretty quick when Bubba decides to climb out  , even with stairs into them , Bubba still tries to climb out ... In spite of that , I am a fan of the small pot bunkers that I see Mr. Dye doing. They might fit quite nicely with some of my greens.

Bill - I forgot to answer part of your question. Woodland Hills is in Nacogdoches , about 2 hrs north of Houston IAH airport on Hwy 59 ... As far as the south side of Houston , I was a partner in a course on the south side and had the mgt contract. But , I've been gone a few years. I live on the north east side ( Kingwood ) .... In regard to the tightly clipped grass bunkers , I know what you mean. Mr Dye's little devils at Waterwood used to drive me nuts ... I went the long grass method the last time , might go tightly clipped the next.



Trey

[PCCraig]

Trey:

Thanks for supplying the course name (Woodland Hills Golf Club) the property sure doesn't look like Texas from the couple photos I saw.

I would second my first opinion (I hope you can do that ) that grass bunkers would be a neat idea because 1) they look great and are almost just as effective, 2) I can imagine they are cheaper to maintain, and 3) can create strategy without making the course alot harder. Plus if your course doesn't have any bunkers aleady it might be strange to start putting them?

I would check out some of William Langford's work (Lawsonia, Spring Valley (no sand bunkers at all), Skokie) to see the type of grass bunkering I mention.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Trey

If bunker construction is a problem then no bunkers. But what about following the lines of Links courses with bumps and dips and larger versions of the Valley of Sin. Again the last Open Ken Brown looked at some – so check out the following clip
Front of the 5th Green  http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/golf/8822963.stm

The location is as always the important factor however using turf dykes these are fairly easy to construct and maintain. Of course what about the old section of the ‘old stone walls’ still one of the best hazards around IMHO..

Have fun

Melvyn

[Peter Pallotta]

Trey - thanks. I ask because I play regularly a 9 hole course near my home that was built in 1910 (some say by Stanley Thompson, but more likely by Mr. Anonymous).  It's on hilly ground and is without a single fairway bunker save for one on each of the two Par 5s, both about 40 yards short of the green. No one I know minds the lack of bunkers at all -- the lack doesn't seem to signify an 'inferior' course to anyone. Will your clientele (existing or new) expect/demand fairway bunkers, or can all your attention be placed on a few  greenside bunkers?

Peter

[Jason Topp]

Trey - the bunker closest to the front left of this green is my favorite on the course.  It functions much like a pot bunker and may prove too difficult for "Bubba."  I have no idea how difficult it is to maintain.

[Trey Stiles]

Pat - Thanks for the Langford links ... I remember his distinctive style from my junior golf days when we played Chickasaw CC in Memphis. Almost 40 years later I still remember one of his distinctive greens complex that had a front entry and huge roll offs on the other 3 sides. Even then I remember thinking , " this looks odd , but it is a terrifying shot "

As I contemplate the " why add bunkers " question. I keep thinking one driving force is golfer perception. The recreational golfer could care less , and golf architecture nerds like me don't care , but building a business is often about influencing the influencer. Those influencers just see all the courses on TV with bunkers and it changes their perception about a bunkerless course ... After you make the go decision , you insure your maintenance cost are minimized , then you get do have some fun and do the best job you can within the budget.

BTW : The bunkers at Sedgefield look pretty good

Jason - I'm with you that's a good one ... Reminds me of the front center bunker on 14 @ The Forrest Course @ Kingwood CC ... Those type bunkers create a challenge that adds interest to the short game ... The added bonus is that the small bunkers are easier to maintain.

[Phil_the_Author]

Trey,

You can always try the Dustin Johnson "That's a parking lot and not a bunker" style...

[Trey Stiles]

Phillip - Reminds me of the time the manager of one of our courses used his own car to chase down some vandal kids .... He drove it right into a lagoon ... Total loss ... Mr. Price bought him a new car !

[RSLivingston_III]

Pat,

FYI - With regards to Lawsonia, none of those bunkers is supposed to be grass bottomed. They were top soiled and grassed over to reduce maintenence costs. They have been slowly getting them returned to their original state, but the maintenence costs still exist and leaving them grass keeps their costs down enough for public golf. Most of their customers actually prefer the other course in and through the trees...

Trey,

Get Donald Ross' book and read his philosophy on bunker placement in fairways and around greens. Not having seen any photos of existing land and green structures, from your description of the greens as all push-up it sounds like a potentially good match.

[Anthony Gray]

  I would check out the bunker threads about Wine Valley.It is the best bunkering I've ever seen.

  Anthony

[Trey Stiles]

Ralph - I'm thinking the Ross style may be a good match as well ... I'll dig out my copy of his book and read up to further develop my thoughts.

Anthony - I'll check out the Wine Valley thread , Thanks for the tip

[Anthony Gray]

Trey,

You can always try the Dustin Johnson "That's a parking lot and not a bunker" style...

  Two strokes for grounding your car.

[Phil_the_Author]

But since the clubs are in the trunk the driver isn't penalized for grounding them...

[Jim_Kennedy]

I've seen a car like that before at Van Cortland Park back in the early '80s, but that one was stripped and then burned. 

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