[Tim Pitner]

Bill,

You assume a lot when you compare my comments to modernization committess in the 1960s.  I'm not saying "do away with Biarritz holes" and if Hackensack, as a Banks course, has a very manufactured look to the course, I would have been all in favor of restoring the Biarritz hole there to its original design. 

This thread, though, started as an offshoot of a discussion about Old Macdonald and, after viewing photos of the Biarritz at Old Macdonald versus the one at Hackensack, I thought to myself, "gosh, I'm glad Doak, Urbina and company didn't build a Hackensack-like Biarritz at Old Macdonald" (no offense meant).  I guess I'm in the camp that prefers holes that play well and are visually appealing. 

[Bill Brightly]

Tim,

Your comment was PERFECT as an example of the mindset that MANY people have when looking at Banks and Raynor courses. I have no doubt that is what led to many of their holes being altered over the years, especially when the "Robert Trent Jones style" became popular in the 60's.  

No offense taken, I think Macdonald did a far better job placing his Biarritz holes compared to Banks.

Here is the Biarritz at the Creek Club



Yale


So the question is would you leave Hackensack's like this, a "standard" 225-235 yard par three:



Or restore it like this:

[Tim Pitner]

Bill,

The restored hole is a bit too symmetrical for my eye, but I agree it's preferable to the "before" version, which didn't appear to offer much of anything beyond length.  And I'm generally in favor of restoring historic golf courses.  Here in Denver, though, we don't have much to restore so I tend to think in terms of new courses.  And I wouldn't be in favor of building a very manufactured-looking Biarritz on a new course.  To me, it's something that works in the right context but not elsewhere. 

[Sean_A]

Tim,

Your comment was PERFECT as an example of the mindset that MANY people have when looking at Banks and Raynor courses. I have no doubt that is what led to many of their holes being altered over the years, especially when the "Robert Trent Jones style" became popular in the 60's.  

No offense taken, I think Macdonald did a far better job placing his Biarritz holes compared to Banks.

Here is the Biarritz at the Creek Club



Yale


So the question is would you leave Hackensack's like this, a "standard" 225-235 yard par three:



Or restore it like this:

Bill

While I am not totally bought into the Raynor style of design, there is no question it results in compelling golf - which should be the #1 goal in design.  However, despite my misgivings, I find your restored Banks B far more attractive than the previous version (at least it is distinctive), but not nearly as attractive as the Creek Club example.  Again, the proof is in the playing and this is the odd thing, I am not sure the B Template is good enough to be used as a template in the first place.  But I am sure there are good and less than good versions of the hole.  Oddly, your restored version looks to be less conducive to the ground game (meaning I would try to carry the green unless it as rock hard) rather than try to bounce a tee shot between the bunkers.    

Ciao

[Bill Brightly]

Tim.

You must have missed my year-long friendly battle with Wayne Morrison (retired GCA member and Flynn lover) about MacRaynors and manufactured looks...  Macdonald was superb at routing his holes in natural settings, Raynor and Banks much less so. Nevertheless, they built great playing fields for golf and extended the Macdonald wing of great golf holes, even if some prefer a more natural look. I truly understand the criticism, but when you play a Raynor or Banks course and see some of the scary shoulders/side of greens that you have to hit to...there is no way to deny the excellence of their designs.

I am playing in the Banks Cup, a match between the 4 private courses Banks built in North Jersey in the late 1920's. I will take a picture of Forsgate's Biarritz this Sunday. I have not seen it in a few years and they recently brought the front section to green height. I am pretty sure that you will see a great similarity to Hackensack's.

You are NOT the first one to criticize the look, especially the working architects who post on this site. But remember, Macdonald taught Raynor. Then Banks worked as an assistant with Raynor for only two or three years before Raynor died. So this is like the "secret message" game where a message is passed down the line, and gets slightly altered along the way. I am almost certain that Macdonald did not work directly with Banks. So there are a dozen or so Banks versions out there of Macdonald's creation. Raynor died in 1926, Banks kept the business going for four years until the Great Depression hit, and then there were NO more MacRaynors built for 40 years or so. The opposite happened:  many existing MacRaynors either became NLE (like Lido) or got "modernized." I find it fascinating, hope you do to!

[Bill Brightly]

Sean,

You are in good company: 50% of our members, myself included, still try to fly it back there and the other 48% can't reach it...There is definitely a group of guys who could not reach the green before but now they can with their drivers due to the roll. (They like the changes )

You will have to trust me that "pre-restoration" the fairway was soft, and with longer grass on the upslope, balls rarely rolled up to the putting green. Now, low shots landing on the front section definitely can make it down and up the swale, while balls landing on the upslope do not. Those roll up a little, then back down the swale. It is pretty cool to watch these shots and hear players root for the proper roll.

I wish I could practice on the hole...but of course that is against club rules. I accidently hit a low pull fade that rolled through the swale from the old black tee, and I want to try a low, hooking 3 wood from the new black tee at 250-260. I am pretty sure that is the right shot. But in our club championship matches I tried to hit a high faded driver while my "biarritz shot" is still in the developmental stages...

[Jud_T]

The funny thing is that while I prefer minimalistic design generally, particularly in newer courses, there's a certain affection I have for these templates.  They work.  Some of the bunkering Steamshovel Banks built has to be seen to be believed.  I'll try to get a photo thread together on Tamarack one of these days.  Maybe it's that this was the dawn of using something other than a horse to move dirt around yet the strategic link to some of the classic G,B&I holes remains before everyone went hogwild with bulldozers.  Maybe I just have my personal biases, but I'm sticking with them....

[Tim Pitner]

Bill,

I do recall Wayne Morrison's comments on the subject but for some reason I forgot the dialogue was with you.  I agree it is a fascinating wing of golf architecture and I appreciate your thoughts. 

Given their differences, it's interesting that both Flynn and Macdonald had so much influence on Merion.

[Ross Tuddenham]

Niall

I seem to remember I went long on the 4th at Silloth and had to putt back through the swale to a front pin.  I have to agree with you that it produced an interesting shot which was a challenge to judge.




I have another general question about Biarritz holes, how often does the swale significantly change the path of a ball travelling through it? 

If it does change the path is it possible with repeated plays to learn where to enter the ball for an exit that goes towards the days pin position?

[George_Bahto]

Ross, in general, the run of the ball through the swale on most (probably ALL) all Macdonald, Raynor, Banks built Biarritz holes is not effected at all - meaning hardly any change in direction.

The swales they built were usually placed at 90-degrees to the line of play and the angles in and out of the swales were constant.

It's pretty interesting how much ink the Biarritz gets.

[Jason Baran]

I find it pretty difficult to putt through the swales on Biarritz greens in which the angles in and out of the swales are constant - particularly if the putt is not "right angled" through the swale, judging the effect of the swale can sometimes be brutal.  I can only imagine how difficult a putt might be for the unfortunate soul who leaves himself on the wrong side of the Biarritz green at Old Mac.

[Chip Gaskins]

St Louis Country Club with a front pin....Pretty hard to stop it on that front pad with a 210 yard uphill shot!



looking back toward the tee




Also an old picture of North Berwick...

[Niall C]

Ross, in general, the run of the ball through the swale on most (probably ALL) all Macdonald, Raynor, Banks built Biarritz holes is not effected at all - meaning hardly any change in direction.

The swales they built were usually placed at 90-degrees to the line of play and the angles in and out of the swales were constant.

It's pretty interesting how much ink the Biarritz gets.

George

They say the same about putting from one tier to the other at 16th North Berwick. I'm not sure if that is down to the pace you have to hit the putt at to get it up to the other level ie. taking the borrow out of it, or whether the borrow down the way is negated by the one back up if you know what I mean.

Either way, as Ross says, its a different challenge but not necessarily less fun for all that.

Niall

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Just spent three days in Biarritz. Good timing!!!!

If the Biarritz was inspired by the Biarritz golf course, it must have been, as David says, the 12th or 13th. I attach photos of each (all obtained from the 100th anniversary publication of the golf course) to give you an idea.

The 12th green looks dissimilar to a Biarritz, as it has punchbowl features, but the 13th could have similarities in the form of side bunkering, although not clearly visible in the picture. Swale cannot be distinguished anywhere....





I doubt that the original 3rd (Chasm) had anything to do, as it was only 90 meters (or yards?) long, with the green perched on top of a cliff, requiring a pitch shot. Not the running draw type of hole....



In case the numbering causes any doubts, the 3rd was already renumbered to the 12th by 1924, when Colt remodelled the course. The remaining holes correspond to the ladies' course.



Regards,

Alfonso

[Tony_Muldoon]

Thank you Alonso, I love Biarritz I'm sure you had a wonderful time.

Can I clarify because it's still very confusing to me.  Your line drawing is the Colt version of the course from 1924?  IN which case the third you show (a long one shot hole?) is the hole that George Bhato describes in his book (sketch below) that was shortened in the 60's and therefore has nothing to do with whatever influenced CBM? (David I realise that's what you've been saying) Confusing because those photos show a cliff top hole and judging from their dress they're earlier than 1924.  This is surely the Chasm.

Or Alonso do you mean by 1924 the 12th was already changed to 3?  Help please.




Looking again its possible the third (stick line)is at the bottom of the cliff?  However George’s original hole is the right length and he believes it was in existence until the 60's. Still confused.

Is there an English version of the history?  Do the club know that Colt visited them pre WW1?
I've long felt todays course course is more Colt (plus 60's changes? than anyone else's.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Recalling David's work, does the history make clear the dates of thsi version?

Here is a map which purportedly showed the course as redrawn by Tom Dunn.   I am not sure of the date, but if this is a map of the early Dunn course, then this ought to put to rest the notion of the Chasm hole as the singular influence for CBM's Biarritz. 



Note that the chasm hole (No. 3) is listed at only 90 yards and the green is located just beyond the "chasm."  (But perhaps with room for an interesting green further out)

The green I think may be a more likely candidate is down in "La Chambre de Amoure" which was the stretch of holes down by the actual beach.   CBM wrote that the model was the 12th hole and this was the 12th hole, at least at the date this map was drawn. 

Fortunately this plan has contour lines so one can see that there may be a  hog's back running along the line of play toward the green, and then ending about 30 yards short of the green.   

While this hole was 300 yards at the time it was drawn, we don't know how long it was when CBM saw it.   Also, he said his hole was "suggested by the 12th hole at Biarritz."   Very few of his holes were exact copies. 

(Another possibility is 13, which was a par three, and which also played over what looks like maybe it was a hog's back, but it played at more of an angle.)

So that is my theory.  I don't have any great photos of the hole, but I might have a few where it is barely visible.    I try to dig through some stuff when I get the chance. 

For perspective's sake, here is a rough overlay of this map on today's course.

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Tony,

No English versión of the history that I saw. I had to buy a French one. The history does not mention anything about Colt prior to 1924 (but I will recheck).

David's work is based on the map hung in the proshop of the club. No date is given there or in the 100 anniversary document (the map is not reproduced in the book, but clearly prior to colt's reworking.

The numbers had been changed by 1924, but it is difficult to say if Colt's 3rd is the original 12th playing down by the beach or a lengthened chasm hole. I would say however tthat the chasm as a par 3 no longer existed after 1924

I hope I have clarified but if not, ask. 

[DMoriarty]

Alfonso,

Thanks very much for your imput and those terrific photos. I have tracked down rough copies of some of those photos from postcards and such, but yours are of a much higher quality. 

A point of clarification.  When I refer to the 12th and 13th holes, I am going off the numbering on the undated plan which seems to predate Colt's work.  So I am not sure how those photos correspond to those holes.  Please forgive me if I have these wrong - I've never been there - but looking at the photos and the map, I think these are the holes represented (where I think I can tell.)
-- The first photo (hitting down into the Chambre) looks to be a photo of No. 11 on the old map.
-- The second photo, again No. 11 but of the fairway then green in the background.  Maybe the 12th tee is visible to the right.
-- The next photo baffles me.  On the old map, the 12th and 13th greens were both on the ocean side of the road, so it doesn't seem to be either one of them.  The 10th plays the other direction, and the 14th was the Cliff hole, straight up over the cliff!   So which hole is that?   Could it be a shorter tee on Colt's 6th?    Or some change that wasn't documented?  Or am I missing something?
-- Last is the chasm hole.   

So I don't think we get a good look at either the 12th or the 13th on that old map.  The other hole that interests me is the 15th, which played back along the top toward the 10th tee.  It looks to have been listed at  110 -220 yards.

I have some copies of cards and such but they are unavailable to me for a few days.  I'll dig them out and post them to see if you guys can make anything out of them.

Again Alfonso and Tony, thanks for the excellent posts. 

[Lester George]

Bill,

I have a photograph of the Biarritz at the Old White (1914) and one from Cavalier (1929) which may change your mind.  Both show the front portion as green.  BTW, one of the most difficult hole locations at the Greenbrier Classic was the one on the rear portion of the front section.

Lester

[Alfonso Erhardt]

David,

Regarding the numbering, you are completely correct. I somehow screwed up. Where I say 12, it should be 11.

About the photo that baffles you. Although not certain, my guess is it should be 13 (186yds):
 - Not a Colt hole, as ladies are dressed in beginning of 20th century clothing.
 - Not likely to be 12, as the teeing grounds don't tie with what looks like a tee to the right of the 11th green.
 - The right side of the fairway plays right below the cliff line. The attached postcard (Courtesy of C. Meister) shows it better than the original photo. This wouldn't leave room for a 13th tee to the right of the green (as it seems in the map).



Finally, to clarify about the 15th, it plays 170-220 according to the map (I have a reasonable quality picture of the map that I took with my phone).

Regards,

Alfonso

[Jim Nugent]

These historical drawings and photos are fascinating.  I'm more confused than ever, though. 

Was the chasm hole originally 90 yards long, or 220 yards long?  If the drawing in Tony's post is at all accurate, hard to see 90 in any case:  not sure that would even get across the chasm. 

Also, the routings and photos seem to show at least one hole on the beach, snuggled up to the ocean.  Given the tides, could that hole last?  Is it NLE in part due to a forward-looking visionary who saw the threat global warming would one day pose to beachfront properties around the world?   

The course really does look cool.  Interesting that there is no record at all of a Biarritz green there.  Would think that would stand out so, it would get some mentions in writing and/or photos. 

[Bill Brightly]

Jim,
I was hoping George Bahto would chime in. I bet he would say that Macdonald combined the front portion "chasm" with the greenside valley of sin to create a brand new par three hole which Macdonald called a Biarrtz.

[George_Bahto]

'I was hoping George Bahto would chime in. I bet he would say that Macdonald combined the front portion "chasm" with the greenside valley of sin to create a brand new par three hole which Macdonald called a Biarritz.


Bill - that's exactly my take - I would love to be proven wrong and then "we'll know the rest of the story"

concerning the yardage:

it was originally about 220 - lasted only a few years - they moved the tee twice - first at about 160 and later at about 80-90 yards .... probably because not too many people could make the carry

that's my drawing by the way

(  - will we ever be done with the Biarritz story?)

Alfonso Erhardt -  GREAT PICTURE - do you have more?

[Tony_Muldoon]

But George your hole doesn’t appear on the drawing we think is from 1924?  Have you a map of the course prior to the 60’s.


Also  Dave is right when he says the holes were frequently changed look at the position of the road in the old plan compared to Alonso’s photo.  Is there a cross bunker in his photo?


Can anyone point to an online source for the first version of Hutchinson’s book?

IN the second version 1897 he talks of the loss of The Chasm or third hole according to the Golfers Handbook. Was this a shortening? Are we all talking about the same holes.

Finally from Scotland’s Gift
Page 143

“IN 1906 I spent several months abroad. The primary object of my visit was to study the great golfing holes of Great Britain to fulfil my dream of building a national golfing links for America. While in England I took a cottage at Hoylake and entered the amateur championship of Great Britain. Horace Hutchinson stopped with me, and from him I received much valuable advice as to the National layout.”

From this I conclude CBM probably never saw THAT original hole and was just taken by Hutchinson’s description of it. This gave him license to build on what he had seen.


Anyone want to search the shipping records, St Katherine’s Docks to Bordeaux?
 

[Bill Brightly]

Tony,

We still need to find out where and when the name Birritz was first attached to the hole. My copy of Scotland's Gift is in my office, does CBM mention the word Birritz?

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