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cary lichtenstein

  • Total Karma: -2
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #75 on: September 10, 2010, 05:52:11 PM »
Back before the PGA Tour got their selfish mitts on this course, there was plenty of strategy, mostly due to the nature of the sand in the bunkers. Also, I can cite at least on hole where I learned about strategy, the 15th.

One use to need to drive the ball to the right, so that their second, could find the left side for their approach to this 3 shotter.

Since moving away from Chicago and seeing quality designs elsewhere, the statement that Cog Hill #4 is one of Chicago's bests, may very well be true, but, is a sad reality.



That is so sad. I used to love Cog Hill. I played it about 100 times and enjoyed every round. I won't get to see it again as I'm no longer golfing.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Tim_Cronin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #76 on: September 10, 2010, 05:53:38 PM »
The key quote from Frank Jemsek's take on the situation: “I wish they were saying good things about the golf course, but it’s hard to fight the facts. The greens are really badly ball-marked. We’ve had a lot of golf in wet weather.”

The whole story is at:

http://golfinchicago.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/jemsek-on-greens-its-hard-to-fight-the-facts/
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Tim_Cronin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #77 on: September 10, 2010, 05:55:24 PM »

That is so sad. I used to love Cog Hill. I played it about 100 times and enjoyed every round. I won't get to see it again as I'm no longer golfing.
[/quote]

Cary, Frank Jemsek reminded us today that they had to go away from the old silica sand because it was being made so fine, balls buried almost from their own weight. They had to go to regular sand. It happened to coincide with the arrival of the Western in 1991, but it was going to happen then anyway.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 08:55:25 PM by Tim_Cronin »
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

PThomas

  • Total Karma: -20
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #78 on: September 10, 2010, 05:58:59 PM »
The key quote from Frank Jemsek's take on the situation: “I wish they were saying good things about the golf course, but it’s hard to fight the facts. The greens are really badly ball-marked. We’ve had a lot of golf in wet weather.”

The whole story is at:

http://golfinchicago.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/jemsek-on-greens-its-hard-to-fight-the-facts/

perhaps they should have closed it sooner than 10 days prior and/or not allowed as much play during rain??
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

JR Potts

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #79 on: September 10, 2010, 08:30:19 PM »
I was out there today and I thought the course looked to be in a lot better shape than when I commented on it 3-4 weeks ago.  That said, the comments I was hearing from the players were not flattering at all....which is a shame.

I mostly sat on the 18th hole however and must say, that is one of the poorest 18th holes I have ever seen.  Like I previously stated and has been confirmed, 80% of the players can't even drive the ball to the fairway bunkers.  And for those who do, it is almost impossible to get to the green from there.

I consider myself a Rees supporter - but his best work clearly wasn't on display during this renovation.  It would have been great to see what someone else could have done to this great property.


Jud_T

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #80 on: September 11, 2010, 08:54:38 AM »
Stewart Cink, normally quite diplomatic, said that on a scale of 0-10 the course is a -3.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tim_Cronin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #81 on: September 11, 2010, 09:19:22 AM »
Stewart Cink, normally quite diplomatic, said that on a scale of 0-10 the course is a -3.

And as it turned out, he said he was echoing the comments of Zach Johnson, who is also usually a see no evil guy.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Adam Clayman

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #82 on: September 11, 2010, 11:59:50 AM »
Shel, Thanks for your level headed input. You are right, the routing was/is just fine. Not great, not bad, but fine.

Sven, Thanks for that info. It doesn't stop the cramped feeling the course has/had. I recall enjoying the sequence of 3-8 and 13-16, but, that wasn't enough to make the course great.


As for the above reason the soft silica was removed, it sounds like revisionist history. That sand was always super soft and many balls with lower trajectories, that entered the bunkers on the fly, were sometimes lost. Nothing along the lines of falling in from it's own weight, if a ball had bounced, or rolled, into a bunker. The reason for the removal was part and parcel of not 'embarrassing theses guys' mindset, that still exists today, albeit, not as much. The sand was removed in the fall of the year prior to the tours arrival. We played the course the day the committee was out there making decisions on tweaks for the pros, in October, of that preceding year, and that sand was already gone.

I feel bad for the outcome of the golf courses new look and playability, for the public player in Chicagoland, and for Mr. Jemsek's because of the horrible reviews it's getting this week. They've owned that place forever and as Shel says, have been leaders in raising the bar for public golf in Chicago for a long time.

My hope was to discuss the errors of ways, so others might learn from it, but apparently nobody wants to talk or identify the mistakes, let alone do the dirty work of re-evaluating, and make suggestions to correct it. I wonder if it's because it's a public venue, the majority on GCA don't give a rat's ass?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

PCCraig

  • Total Karma: -12
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #83 on: September 11, 2010, 12:35:26 PM »
In case anyone is interested in seeing a good amount of post-renovation pictures of Dubsdread that I took last year during a round in May, I posted them on my blog this morning:

http://secondcitygolfer.blogspot.com/2010/09/cog-hill-4-dubsdread.html
H.P.S.

PCCraig

  • Total Karma: -12
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #84 on: September 11, 2010, 12:47:02 PM »
I consider myself a Rees supporter - but his best work clearly wasn't on display during this renovation.  It would have been great to see what someone else could have done to this great property.

Ryan:

I thought this was an interesting point.

I would consider myself a Rees fan as well on the whole. While many on here bash him to no end, he has done some good renovation/redesign work of classic courses over his career. Obviously he's done a lot of work on your club over the last 10 years or so, but the renovation job of his I have had the most experience with is bellerive in St. Louis. I've probably played it 15-20 times since he renovated the course in 2006 (ironically right before he won the job at Cog Hill). There he did a very fine job... "cleaning" up the course, enhancing two of the weaker holes there, lengthening the holes with new back tees, moving and deepening bunkers....however all while keeping the course's identity together.

For some reason I get the feeling that at Cog Hill the ownership gave him full reign over the course in a big push to get the Open...and he took that freedom too far. Perhaps at a private club with their committees force Jones to be more restrained, which might be a good thing.
H.P.S.

Tim_Cronin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #85 on: September 11, 2010, 04:24:48 PM »
Pat, Frank Jemsek said he vetoed some of Rees Jones' plans to make the bunkers even more deep than they are, saying he wanted to make sure his customers who got into them could also get out. As for the greens, I don't believe there were any vetos used.

Here's the latest on my golf website, from superintendent Ken Lapp earlier today:

http://golfinchicago.wordpress.com/2010/09/11/lapp-lack-of-roots-cause-of-dubsdreads-trouble/

Said Lapp: “We had rain, heat, then more rain, and then it was 95 degrees. When you get all that rain early in the spring, you lose your roots.”
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 04:26:51 PM by Tim_Cronin »
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Mike H

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #86 on: September 11, 2010, 07:02:31 PM »
Tim

It does not look like I am going to play Cog Hill.  Right now it looks like I will be playing Medinah #3, Blue Mound and Olympia Fields (North) on my trip to Chicago.  My pro suggested that I play Blue Mound on Sept 22 and after finding out Blue Mound is a Raynor I did not want to pass up the chance.

Bradley Anderson

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #87 on: September 11, 2010, 08:22:04 PM »
As I recall there were some very heavy rains in localized areas around Chicago followed by heat in the mid-90's. In places it rained over 5 inches right? I can understand how that would have set the greens back.

I think this is one of those situations where you give the Jemsek family and the superintendent a break. I don't think it is fair to judge the architect too severely on this either. If we had a summer like last summer we might all be talking about how we are going to get our tickets for a US Open at Cog Hill.

Bill Seitz

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #88 on: September 11, 2010, 10:33:34 PM »
As I recall there were some very heavy rains in localized areas around Chicago followed by heat in the mid-90's. In places it rained over 5 inches right? I can understand how that would have set the greens back.

Again, it's been an awful summer for golf courses here.  But I think that's doubly so for Dubs because the greens are so young.  Give those greens five-six years of normal/good growing seasons, and they could weather a bad summer.  Those greens are only a year or two old.  Their youth, coupled with the bad weather, has been very problematic.  Cantigny's greens, for example, are still pretty good.  Not overly fast, but they're rolling true, and they're in good shape for the most part, with a couple exceptions (#2 Lakeside isn't all that great).  Mature greens can survive this weather.  Dubs' greens are not mature.

JR Potts

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #89 on: September 12, 2010, 10:52:09 AM »
Bill and Bradley:

If new construction is the excuse, given what I've seen this year, I would expect the fairways to be the first to go.  My course had a redo a la Cog Hill and the fairways were the only part of the course to show significant stress as the roots were not able to take hold before the rains and scorching heat.  The greens held up just fine due to the high sand content, drainage and sub-air flexibility.  That is just our place and I get that every place is different...but, if you look around Chicago this summer, the greens are mostly holding up (unless there is a lot of poa) but the fairways are getting pulverized.  Seems to be the other way around at Cog FWIW.

PCCraig

  • Total Karma: -12
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #90 on: September 12, 2010, 11:29:48 AM »
Is the golf course and it's reception this year a big enough wreck that the PGA Tour might look into other options for the Tournament? Will the Tour just let it blow over as long as the Tournament is generating revenue or with the player's dislike of the current course be hard to ignore?
H.P.S.

JR Potts

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #91 on: September 12, 2010, 05:51:34 PM »
I will say this, the course, for better or worse, seems to have found a way to separate the best from the rest.  Kucher, Johnson, Moore...all have been competitors all year long.

Mike H

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #92 on: September 12, 2010, 06:13:42 PM »
I think the course looks very fun/challenging.  I currently play on a Dick Wilson course and I saw a lot of similarities. 

Jud_T

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #93 on: September 12, 2010, 07:49:25 PM »
Mike,

I'm not sure "fun" is the operative word post-renovation, even for very strong players...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Bill Seitz

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #94 on: September 12, 2010, 08:10:30 PM »
Bill and Bradley:

If new construction is the excuse, given what I've seen this year, I would expect the fairways to be the first to go. 

I might be missing your point, but I'm pretty sure the fairways were not replanted.  That grass has been there for a long time.  The greens are young, but the fairways and rough are not.

Andy Troeger

Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #95 on: September 12, 2010, 09:47:37 PM »
I think the course looks very fun/challenging.  I currently play on a Dick Wilson course and I saw a lot of similarities. 

Mike,
I had the chance to play your Dick Wilson course not long before I played Cog Hill. There's no comparison--given another ten rounds I'd play your course 9-1 minimum. Cog Hill is definitely more difficult, but the terrain isn't as interesting overall (although good in spots) and the design is much more based on execution than anything else.

Mike H

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #96 on: September 12, 2010, 10:21:18 PM »
Andy

Since you have played both did you see many similarities?

Andy Troeger

Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #97 on: September 12, 2010, 10:47:25 PM »
Mike,
In all honesty, not as much as I would have expected. The land itself is fairly different, your course has a lot more dramatic changes in elevation. Cog Hill has that a little bit on the back nine, but nothing as extreme as the 3rd or 12th holes at your course. Cog Hill feels fairly narrow because of the deep bunkering that's prevelent on the sides of fairways--if you end up in those things you're essentially pitching out. The bunkering as a whole is totally different. Cog Hill looks like the bunkering on Rees Jones original designs in terms of shapes--you wouldn't recognize it as Dick Wilson at all. Your course is just a lot more fun as well.

Terry Lavin

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #98 on: September 13, 2010, 12:06:58 PM »
I was out there this weekend and I did notice some issues with the greens, but it wasn't a horror show by any means.  Overall, the course was in good condition, given the weather problems we've had this year in Chicago.

As for the Rees work, he took a hard course (it's not called Dubsdread because it's overly customer friendly, for Chrissakes) and made it five or six shots harder.  Some of the holes look better because of tree removal and the look of the bunkering, but it's mostly just more difficult because of the placement of the bunkers and the reconfiguration of the greens.  I was never that big of a fan of Dubs, because it fell into the needlessly penal category and I'm still not a big fan, but there's no doubt that the architect did what the owner wanted.  The owner thought that the USGA needed the course to be longer and harder and snarlier in its defense of par in order to merit a US Open.  I think it's fair to say in hindsight that they never had a shot, because the USGA had fallen in love with the blank canvas in  Wisconsin much in the same way they fell in love with Chambers Bay.

Now the public golfer is left with a course that is just too punishing to merit the greens fees and one that is apparently not worthy of the compliments of the pampered glass, the One Tanned Hand crowd on the PGA Tour.

P.S.  I'll add to my list of disagreements with Adam Clayman his suggestion that the soft silica sand should reappear.  That sand was a fricking travesty.  The only way to play with that sand was to "rake and roll", which is another travesty in itself.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jud_T

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread
« Reply #99 on: September 13, 2010, 01:54:54 PM »
Terry,

I wonder if they've now lost both ways.  Not only have they lost their Open bid, but they may have turned their core business of local golfers away as well.  After one post-renovation round I doubt a lot of average players will pony up $155 for repeat punishment.  Before the reno, it was at least possible to enjoy onesself if you were hitting the ball well, now it's simply beyond reach for most of us.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak