Cog Hill #4-Dubsdread

[PCCraig]

It's really sad to hear all of this. While I never met the younger Jemsek's, I admired and respect Old Joe. He loved Dubbs and rightfully so, back before the tour made it theirs.

From all the negative comments, assuming they translate to the bottom line....
Will this be the last course Rees gets to "spruce up" for powers that be?

I don't think Rees did  abad job considering what he had to work with beforehand. He made it much better in my mind.

Sometimes it doesn't matter how many times you polish and wax your pinto...it'll never be a mustang.

[Jud_T]

Adam,

Agree that the Jemsek's have been the lifeblood of Chicago public golf.  The 2 main problems, aside from the GCA criticism above, are that the economy currently doesn't allow for very many corporate golf outings at $155/head and Erin Hills beat them out of the Open race following the city's last minute refusal to cover additional security costs at the Open at Olympia.  On the flip side, I think they have gotten a significant number of regular tee-time players who dropped out of their even more expensive private clubs...25 rounds at $155 seems like a bargain compared to $10,000 annual dues.....

[Mark Smolens]

Sven, #5 is no longer a par-5. It's now a brutally difficult par-4 for those of us who don't hit it very far.

Certainly the $155 greens fee has reduced the amount of play, but for the past 8 or 9 years it has always been pretty easy to get a tee time on Dubs. They correctly foresaw the market a few years back when they tried to eliminate my group that had 5, then 4, then 3 prime tee times on Saturday morning. Now, many of the weekend permanent tee times play the complete rotation of four courses, and thus the big ticket Dubsdread is only once per month.

It's still fun, however, to go out and struggle your away around Dubs, and then watch the guys with their names on their bags just absolutely eat it up. Any way you look at it, those guys are indeed good.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven, #5 is no longer a par-5. It's now a brutally difficult par-4 for those of us who don't hit it very far.

Depends on the tees you play.  From the Combo tees I believe its a par 5, it may be a 4 from the cranks.

[Bill Seitz]

I'm the type that will pay almost anything to play a course once.  That said, I've played Dubs probably 30-35 times, including 7-8 times since the renovation.  It's definitely worth hitting if you're in town.

Post-renovation, it's more difficult than it was before, but not much more difficult (it was no pushover before).  I think it's a course where (depending on your level of ability) par isn't that hard, but it can be very hard to make birdie.  12 is a good example.  There are some pin positions that are completely inaccessible, but it's not that hard to hit it in the middle of the green and make par from there. 

I played it on Sunday and it was getting pretty burned out in some areas, but I think they'll have in shape in time for the BMW.  The greens mark up surprisingly easy, and for a high end course, it seems to get a ton of player who have absolutely no clue that they're supposed to repair their ball marks.  The bunkering is much tougher than it was before, but honestly, if you hit the ball at a bunker, you better hope it goes in.  After Rees got done with it, you are MUCH worse off if you end up in the long grass sloping down into the bunker.  Greens fees include cart, but I usually walk it, and it's a pretty tough walk.  Probably the toughest walk of any public course in Chicago. 

I'd disagree with Pat about the Glen Club (I think it's highly overrated), but if you're looking for other public courses in Chicagoland, I'd suggest Pine Meadow or Cantigny. 

As for #5, I'm pretty positive it's a par 4 from all of the tees (for men anyway), but it's a really difficult par 4.  It's long and uphill, and you can't bounce a 3-wood on to the green because of the big front bunker.  It has a pretty generous fairway, but the second shot is brutal.

[Bill Seitz]

The fairways are generally good.  Some of the green run offs are nearly dead - likely due to standing water.

I might be misinterpreting you, but the deadest spots on the greens last weekend were the high points around the edges, most likely because they can't hold any water and got burned out in the heat.  A lot of those areas were plugged.  They aren't going to affect play, but if they don't get them in shape, they won't look very good on TV. 

[JR Potts]

Pat:

We played all all-the-way back tees yesterday as I was playing with a Tour player who wanted to see the course changes as he just missed the BMW last year.  I tend to drive it 20 yards farther than him and we kept commenting to each other - "who are these bunkers made for".  He hit driver just short of every one (not that it mattered because he hits it so straight and good) and then hit 5/6 iron into the tough and log par 4s....easy...just like that.  

My biggest concern was with the lack of tree removal and bunkering.  First off, the fairway bunkering on 7, 10, 13, 17 and 18 is just terrible.  That said, the greens were spectacular.  Moreso, three of those five holes have huge trees right on the other side of those cavernous bunkers.  For instance, on 18 I hit a solid drive that just drew a little too much.  So - I had about 205 in.  First off, the bunker felt like it was 10 feet deep (why, on a 500 yard hole such a bunker is needed is beyond me but it is what it is).  But second, upon getting in the bunker, a 60 year old Oak is right between my ball and any part of the hole (which is surrounded by water).  Now, I would think that on such a hole, you would want to temp a player into attempting a 5 iron out of there to a water surrounded green....but nope, they left the tree.   So, I punch out wedge to 50 yards, chipped it to 5 feet and made par.  Just boring golf in my opinion.

I am willing to forgive the conditioning as this summer has been horrible for us.  My course is suffering a lot as well.  Finally, I found the greenside bunkering to be total overkill as well.  It looked nice to the eye but the locations of thses traps were ridiculous.  Long and short, it felt to me that they just stuck as many bunkers around greens as possible to make it "harder" and more visually appealing - and it didn't work on either attempt.

Again, I will go ther again and play different tees and enjoy it just like I did yesterday.  But, it's boring golf...more boring than Torrey Pine...another place that I would play again but not lose sleep the night before in the anticipation of playing it.

[JR Potts]

Bill:

No, I saw the same burn-outs that you did but I am talking about the run offs on some of the greens.  For instance, the 6th hole run off was mush - almost totally dead.  I assume it's due to standing water in the area as I didn't see a drain and I know they've been whalloped with rain.

It was also quite clear that Rees (or whomever) really tried holding onto some trees.  The greens that were suffering were clearly over-treed and had no circulation.

And finally - why in the hell did they plant 5-7 trees on the left side of 16?  That was a great view of a really neat marsh.  I don't get that at all.

[Adam Clayman]

Jud. I thought Tiger's 62 had more to do with them not getting the open than the typical payola one expects in our major cities. Before the work I postulated that by shrinking the DZ's plays right into the elite players comfort zone. Add the fact that they apparently have ruined the experience for the less skilled and violla you have no Reeson to hire this type of work, anywhere. 

[Mike H]

Ryan

Can we get any hints to who the tour player was?  Also you said the fairway bunkering seems to be out of play for you on the back tees.  How far do you hit driver and how far in front of you were those bunkers?

[JR Potts]

It was my college roommate, DA Points.  I would have landed in the back side or just short of each bunker.  DA was about 3-5 yards behind most of them.  That said, the fairways were terribly soft...with drives rolling less than a yard.  So that probably had something to do with it as well.

[Paul OConnor]

I was at the Pro-Am at Dubs yesterday.  The greens are terrible.  Our pro's caddy said he thought they were the worst greens they played all year.  Lots of "no grass" spots, bumpy, slow, inconsistent, some firm, some mushy.  Looks like there were areas that had been resodded fairly recently.  The 13th was the worst.  It would be an embarrasment for a $40 muni.

I don't understand how with all the money that was spent on new greens and the installation of sub-air, how greens could be this bad.  Sure the weather has been tough, but there are plenty of courses in the Chicago area whose greens are perfect.  What's wrong?

[Sven Nilsen]

I was at the Pro-Am at Dubs yesterday.  The greens are terrible.  Our pro's caddy said he thought they were the worst greens they played all year.  Lots of "no grass" spots, bumpy, slow, inconsistent, some firm, some mushy.  Looks like there were areas that had been resodded fairly recently.  The 13th was the worst.  It would be an embarrasment for a $40 muni.

I don't understand how with all the money that was spent on new greens and the installation of sub-air, how greens could be this bad.  Sure the weather has been tough, but there are plenty of courses in the Chicago area whose greens are perfect.  What's wrong?

They have been pretty bad all summer.  Supposedly they were awful on the Sunday before Labor Day weekend.  Sounds like they weren't able to get them in shape over the week and a half the course was closed before the BMW.  My guess is they get alot of players that have never heard of a repairing a ball mark.

[Phil McDade]

My guess is they get alot of players that have never heard of a repairing a ball mark.

Sven:

Cog Hill's late-summer/early fall rate is $155; that's a pretty steep price, likely to draw only serious golfers. You really think the crowd that seeks out #4 doesn't know how to repair a ball mark?

[Paul OConnor]

Unless they were playing with bowling balls, the damage I saw wasn't from ball marks. 

[PCCraig]

That's too bad about the greens.

Looking back, perhaps moving the BMW to cities other than Chicago every other year may of been the smart move. When's the next time it leaves? 2012 for Crooked Stick?

[Sven Nilsen]

My guess is they get alot of players that have never heard of a repairing a ball mark.

Sven:

Cog Hill's late-summer/early fall rate is $155; that's a pretty steep price, likely to draw only serious golfers. You really think the crowd that seeks out #4 doesn't know how to repair a ball mark?

Having played there 7 or 8 times this summer, absolutely yes.  Even with a 7:50 tee time, the greens would be peppered with unrepaired ball marks from the groups in front of us.  Add in the softer conditions this summer and its a recipe for disaster.

I'd venture that Cog gets quite a few semi-serious golfers looking to say they played a tour stop who don't give a crap about taking care of the course.  In addition to the ballmarks, lack of bunker raking and divot replacement/fill are also quite evident.

As Paul indicated, the ballmarks probably aren't the big issue.  They missed the mark this year on taking care of their greens, and the weather certainly didn't help.  As a muni, they probably don't have the luxury of shutting down the course on the days when play will do the most damage.

[PThomas]

yowsa..stories like this about the greens cant help any chance of getting an Open there

[PCCraig]

yowsa..stories like this about the greens cant help any chance of getting an Open there

It's too bad but you're probably right.

[Mark Smolens]

I haven't been to Dubs as much this year as in the past. Over Memorial Day weekend the greens were just okay, grass was fine but could've used a couple of days of rolling. On the 1st of July for our Weekly Challenge tournament they were excellent, but not so much a month later. A buddy of mine who has a tee time on Sundays has stopped playing in the past three weeks because the greens have been so bad, and his group may be moving to Cantigny next year. . .

They spent a ton of $$ on the new sub-air system for their greens. Wasn't this technology installed for the purpose of eliminating some of the vagaries of hot Chicago summers and cold springs and falls? As it turns out, they's have been much better off this year playing the tournament during their old slot over the 4th of July. . . maybe the FedUp Cup will fade away and we can get back our Western Open???

[Adam Clayman]

Is there anyone on here who can argue for the route ownership has taken?

This was abad idea from it's inception.

Chicago deserves to have a venue that is both capable of holding a championship and is imspiring to play. Cog Hill number 4 may suffice on the former, but, seriously misses the mark on the latter.

I still say they should blow up the whole property and start fresh with two GREAT courses. Lord knows there's some great ground to create as much.

[Mark Smolens]

My how easy it is to spend other people's money on this dg. Let me get your point Adam. Frank Jemsek spent $5 million dollars, hiring the "Open Doctor" to renovate his course, did it in one season rather than a few holes at a time (thereby closing the course and getting no revenue from the principal source of income for an entire season+), and now you want him to shutter all four of his courses and create two that fit your idea of greatness??? I'm wondering how "inspiring" it was for the pros at Torrey Pines playing that golf course from all the way back. I'm thinking not so much.

I don't know why the greens are in such bad shape this week -- we've certainly seen enough threads on here this summer about the extreme weather conditions across the U.S. and their effect on golf courses. And I would agree with Sven that the character of the Dubs permanent tee time holder has changed. In the past the course was filled with groups that played Dubs every week. Now, for the most part #4 is part of a rotation. It's hard to find groups who are willing/able to shell out $155/week every week. They're now apparently encouraging the groups who formerly rotated 1-3 to add Dubs to their rotation, and some of those folks apparently aren't that aware of their impact on the course. I'm sure a lot of them have no idea that they even make a ball mark, let alone have an ability to repair one. . . But in terms of capability of hosting a championship, I still believe that Dubs is the choice in Chicago, and that it's too bad the USGA does not agree.

[Terry Lavin]

I think Jones did a pretty good job of making the course tougher for everyday play, but it sure doesn't seem to have affected the pros much.  They beat up the course the last time they played there and I wouldn't be surprised if they get in the mid teens under par this week as well.  Conditioning wise, Dubsdread has always left something to be desired, if only because of the amount and caliber of play that it gets.  The superintendent is a nice man, but he sure does seem to favor wet and green over anything else.  As for this year, there are a great many golf courses hereabouts in pretty pathetic shape because of the heat, humidity and enormous rain dumps that we got in July and August, so it's no surprise that Cog is hurting.

On the subject of blowing up the other three and just building one other great course, that would be a fun concept, to be sure, but methinks it'd be a poor business model.  Two of the other three courses (#1 and #3) are incredibly mundane and it would be a nice site to build a golf course, but I don't think they'd fill the tee sheet at the price they'd have to charge.

[Tim_Cronin]

So far today in the first round of the Western Open (!), the course is averaging just over par (71.131). Matt Kuchar led the morning crowd with a 7-under 64, Ryan Moore following with a 6-under 65, including an inward 29, a Western and Dubs back nine record, with birdies on seven of the last holes, and the last five.

There is next to no wind, the pin placements are generally moderate, and today's distance of 7,463 yards.

[PThomas]

So far today in the first round of the Western Open (!), the course is averaging just over par (71.131). Matt Kuchar led the morning crowd with a 7-under 64, Ryan Moore following with a 6-under 65, including an inward 29, a Western and Dubs back nine record, with birdies on seven of the last holes, and the last five.

There is next to no wind, the pin placements are generally moderate, and today's distance of 7,463 yards.

at least someone is struggling..TW is 3 over thru 8

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