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Mike Wagner

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #100 on: August 25, 2010, 10:42:21 AM »
Paul,

Wait until next year....Erin Hills & Bluemound.  They're even more different.

Fred Yanni

Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #101 on: August 25, 2010, 10:49:38 AM »
I know basically nothing about CB but do have a question.   Does anyone know if the 4 500+ yard par 4s all play downhill or downwind or have some architectural feature that makes sense for that many very very long par 4s.   Or are the holes  just long for long's sake?

Seems like it beat the heck out of the field.   Thanks  


Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #102 on: August 25, 2010, 10:56:02 AM »

I would really like to watch some of the play at CB - does anyone know when it will be shown this week?



Don't get your hopes up of actually seeing much of the course ... past experience tells us that in the few hours of broadcast that they have, they will have the required puff pieces (any of the name players, probably one on Bob Tway following or caddying for his son, the Titleist kid, etc.) and then show tons of putting ... I bet they show less then full 50 golf shots each day ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #103 on: August 25, 2010, 11:06:46 AM »
CB is quite a change for most of the players - the course plays firm and fast, tough recovery shots and difficult greens to read. It is my understanding that most players brought their own caddies who also knew little about the course and would have done much better with a good local caddie who knew the course well.  I would speculate that the situation will be different for the US Open where they  will have only one course to learn and they will have far more time to learn it.  The course was designed to play firm and fast much more so than Pebble was and it doesn't have those really small greens. Let's see how they deal with the  course as they become more familiar with it.   

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #104 on: August 25, 2010, 11:08:50 AM »
I know basically nothing about CB but do have a question.   Does anyone know if the 4 500+ yard par 4s all play downhill or downwind or have some architectural feature that makes sense for that many very very long par 4s.   Or are the holes  just long for long's sake?

Seems like it beat the heck out of the field.   Thanks  



Two very long par 4s play downhill. Two par 4s play uphill, one of them probably drivable for most of the field. The rest play relatively flat.
The longest par 4 (14) has a center bunker. Driving left of it can catch a turbo boost bounce. Driving right of if can make for a very long hole. The other long downhill par 4 has two greens. So it can also be configured as a drivable par 4. That second green also has tees for the next par 4 which shorten that par 4 also.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Fred Yanni

Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #105 on: August 25, 2010, 11:21:45 AM »
Thanks G -

sounds like a course with some very interesting layout options - I can't wait to see what MDavis does with all those options for the USOpen in 2015

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #106 on: August 25, 2010, 12:13:17 PM »
There may have been some home field advantage as I see two golfers from nearby in Olympia, WA and one from nearby Tacoma, WA made match play. Also UofW golfer Nick Taylor made it.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #107 on: August 25, 2010, 01:16:28 PM »
Garland,
Tacoma's T J Bordeaux was my darkhorse pick going in. He lapped the field at the Emerald Valley qualifier shooting 11 under and would be playing a familiar course.

Will be watching the live TV coverage, which begins at 6:30 EDT.

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #108 on: August 25, 2010, 04:09:03 PM »

I would really like to watch some of the play at CB - does anyone know when it will be shown this week?



Don't get your hopes up of actually seeing much of the course ... past experience tells us that in the few hours of broadcast that they have, they will have the required puff pieces (any of the name players, probably one on Bob Tway following or caddying for his son, the Titleist kid, etc.) and then show tons of putting ... I bet they show less then full 50 golf shots each day ...

Sadly, this is usually the case.

Nonetheless, here is the TV SCHEDULE as published on the USGA website:

Broadcast times are Pacific Time as follows:

The Golf Channel:
Wednesday, August 25, 6:30 pm - 8:00 pm
Thursday, August 26, 6:30 pm - 8:00 pm
Friday, August 27, 1:00 pm - 3:00 pm

NBC:
Saturday, August 28, 4:00 pm - 6:00 pm
Sunday, August 29, 4:00 pm - 6:00 pm

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #109 on: August 25, 2010, 05:32:09 PM »
Garland,
Tacoma's T J Bordeaux was my darkhorse pick going in. He lapped the field at the Emerald Valley qualifier shooting 11 under and would be playing a familiar course.

Will be watching the live TV coverage, which begins at 6:30 EDT.

Well, he's gone in the first round. And, the two from Olympia are behind in their rounds, as is Mr. Taylor from UofW.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JC Jones

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #110 on: August 25, 2010, 07:56:56 PM »
I've been watching on the Golf Channel for the last hour.  I have to say that the course looks like it would be very fun and interesting to play.  I miss Seattle and the PacNW, generally.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #111 on: August 25, 2010, 08:07:36 PM »
I love the firm brown look to the course.  Ball is really rolling.  Believe me, this is probably the only 2 weeks of the year you could get those conditions.  It will not be in that condition in June of 2015 unless they dome the course.   ;D

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #112 on: August 25, 2010, 08:20:09 PM »
We visited CB last year.  Due to the economy we couldn't play, so we walked the great path that surrounds the course.  Trust me, just walking the path was a great time.  You start up at the clubhouse and walk to the north far above the course.  When you get to to the end of the property, you turn west and head down to the Sound.  From there you walk through the course out to 18 and then climb back up to the clubhouse.

We then spent about an hour just talking golf to guys that had just putted out on 18 along with the professional staff.  

It was great, and I really came to like the golf course.  I can't wait to get back to actually play the darn thing!

PS - I think Kemper Sports runs the facility for the county, and they do a Bandon-like job (which is fantastic)

PPS - I'm loving watching CB on TV.  

PPPS - What do you think of RTJ Jr's work?  I was very pleasantly surprised.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #113 on: August 25, 2010, 08:43:58 PM »
Maybe -- well, no, it is -- the most impressive course I've seen on TV since the US Open went to Shinnecock Hills in '86. Really impressive stuff. Love the long roll-outs of shots, LOVE the active rail line right next to some holes, love the course conditioning.

Way back in 1971, presumably for heat/weather reasons, the PGA was held as the first major of the season, in February, at the PGA National GC in Florida. Can we get the USGA to move the 2015 US Open to late August? :D

Carr Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #114 on: August 25, 2010, 08:52:29 PM »
It was strange watching today.

When I played Chambers in May, four separate holes had different pars then what they played today (1,4,13,18).

Not to mention that I played 17 from 65 yards further back then the tee placement today, and 15 from 30 yards shorter ( I didn't even realize that the back tee on 15 even existed)

I really view that as a testament to course design that the greens could accept aproach shots equally from such different distances.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #115 on: August 25, 2010, 08:53:48 PM »
 8) CB looks a lot better in person than it does on the tv coverage that i watched (~ last hour+ or so).. ms sheila remarked it looked kinda crappy for a golf course, and not much better for a waste site reclamation.  

it is always fun to watch a course you've played being shown on tv, when we played in May it was slow, i too wonder how they'll get it running in June 2015?

Wonder how Dotty will do, hustling around as she does, during the 36 hole semi's or final? Will Roger Maltby do some walking commentary on the weekend?



« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 07:36:39 AM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

John Moore II

Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #116 on: August 25, 2010, 09:41:51 PM »
So I've only read the final page, but did anyone else see thing blog article on Yahoo?
http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/blog/devil_ball_golf/post/Is-Chambers-Bay-too-hard-for-USGA-events-;_ylt=AjpzSNPMn7zikmNqkx0yJJEogsUF?urn=golf-265081

The writer actually thinks the course might be too tough for USGA events. Now that is funny. So, these are the best amateur players in the world, and we say a course can be too tough? Dear me. I just love some of the comment "he hit a perfect 4 iron that landed in the center of the green and ended up about 30 yards over the back in the fescue." This was said about the tee shots on both 9 and 15. Just a couple of thoughts here. A quick look at the aerial and the description on the website tells me that 9 is downhill and open in the front allowing for a run-up shot. 15, unless they have a tee that is not listed on the score card, plays shorter than 200 yards. (i see on the USGA website that 15 can play to 246 now) So, I am not sure what to think of the comments. What the rest of you think?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 09:47:35 PM by John K. Moore »

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #117 on: August 25, 2010, 10:41:20 PM »
I just think it is a case of this cadre of players really not knowing much about how to play the ground game.  How many times do these elite college players get to play a course like this?  Not much I suspect.  They are more comfortable throwing a 4 iron into a green and watching it stick or even back up than thinking about a shot 30 yards short of the green and running it in.  I only wish the the wind would blow.  As high as some of these guys are hitting it, we would see some balls leave the yard!

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #118 on: August 25, 2010, 11:32:25 PM »
Daryl, It sure as hell wasn't into the wind! Hey gang, welcome to the varied conditions having an impact as to how a track plays! Figure it out and post a number.  Sounds pretty normal to me. Of course June there won't play like August, it that a surprise?

Mike Benham, Astute post! I've seen countless players go to many USGA tournaments with their caddie "whoever," and to be frank, 90% of them aren't worth a lick in really helping a player prepare to play an event. I don't care how good a player they are,  most "dabbler" caddies have very little idea how to really dial in to compete on the course knowledge aspect. You better spend several days, AT LEAST, if you don't know the track(s) and that quality local just really can give a player an edge! Bottom line, especially around the greens...the stud local KNOWS what that putt is doing, the non-local players and rest of the field, I don't care if it's Stevie Williams... are GUESSING!

Major props to the stud locals at top tracks! I'm not talking about the "tourist" type caddies, though I'll give ya some love, it's the vets and solid young guns that "get it" and razor up for the big events that get the tip of my cap!
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #119 on: August 25, 2010, 11:38:32 PM »
 8) Only played there one day in may.. i wouldn't believe all the card yardages.. Richard Choi will probably advise what the set ups really were..

on 8 if you catch some hill and go over the ridge i think there's major runout possibiliites let alone run out on approach to green..

on tv they were saying 15 was playing like 140-159 yds ( a wedge or 9 iron)  

was funny the Swofford (?sp) guy who was 3 up and 4 putted 18 to go to extra innings, and his opponent both played  wedge up onto #1 from below left.. instread of run up shot  Swofford got on guy that didn't had ball roll back off the green and lost
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 11:41:03 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #120 on: August 25, 2010, 11:51:48 PM »

.. instread of run up shot  Swofford got on guy that didn't had ball roll back off the green and lost



I think the elevation change from where they hit their 3rd shots to the hole is quite steep, maybe +30 feet or so ... add the distance from the hole 40-50 yards, I don't think a run up shot would be the right play ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #121 on: August 25, 2010, 11:53:27 PM »
OK folks, I just got back from spending all day at the course. I am BEAT! But here is my report.

First, let me answer Scott's question.

I keep hearing how difficult CB is playing, and you reiterated that again with the bloodbath statement.  In your opinion, is this a positive or a negative for the USGA as well as CB?  You've got the best amateur players on the planet making the trip and the average score is over 80.  Seems like something's amiss to me.  

Scott, now that I have seen it in person, I can safely say Chambers Bay is USGA's wet dream come true. The course and the setup is so flexible, USGA can basically dial in whatever number they want the field to shoot. And you don't have to rely on any adverse weather for tough conditions. Even with no wind, you can setup the course to play extremely tough or extremely easy.

Take a look at today's example. After Sat/Sun bloodbath, Mike Davis showed his gentler side today. The fairways and greens were watered heavily overnight. For the morning at least, the greens were very receptive. They also moved up a bunch of tees. #10 played as a drivable par 4 at about 320 yards. On #5 they used the short green on the left which also made it drivable at about 310. So, you had three, count’em, THREE drivable par 4’s on the course (including #12). When is the last time you saw that at a USGA event?  Also, #4, par 5, was shortened to play at about 530 yards and with the firm fairways, most players were hitting 6 to 4 iron into the green and birdies were aplenty.

I believe the course was only about 7200 yards today and played about 6 to 7 strokes easier than it did over the weekend (a sentiment shared by the players). There were birdies everywhere, and I dare say the players had a good time today.

But that does not mean the course was just a pushover. The true links nature of the course really played havoc with the players. Here are a couple of prime examples.

During the morning playoffs to determine the final 6 players, I was standing at the 2nd green. The green slopes right to left with a sideboard on the right side and a falloff on left. The pin was on the very left plateau about half way up the green. Time and time again, players tried to work the ball right to left on their approach, but all of the balls landed on the right side, on the green which meant that it was not going to get enough roll to the left as there is a small slope. And they all ended up putting from about 50 to 60 feet away and half of them ended up three putting (once it goes over the ridge, it goes downhill).

The actual correct play is to hit it about halfway up the sideboard on the right and use it to propel the ball to the left side. It is a REALLY easy shot as you have a big margin for error, but nobody dared to aim that far away from the pin.

Another example - I was marshaling at the par 4, 16th hole towards the end of the day. We had an unusual wind at the end of the day as it was blowing from the north (about 10 to 15 mph) which is a strong tail wind for what is already a pretty short hole. The closer to the bunkers on the right you go with your drive, you have more straightforward approach. However, if you miss to the left there is a big downhill ridge between you and the green. About half of the players had an approach shot from this angle. The correct shot is to aim about 40 to 50 yard short of the green, let it bounce on the flat part of the ridge and then let it roll down to the pin in the middle of the pin.

But nobody, I mean not a single player played the correct shot. They either flew it on the green and bounced in to the sand on the opposite side, or flew it too far and end up in the collection area on the left of the green, or (as most did) land about 10 to 20 yards short of the green on the left, hit the downslope and shot across the green (in the bunker). They had about 10 to 15 yard long big flat landing area about 40 yards short of the green, but instead they kept trying to hit a shot that required landing within about 2 yards of the target!!! This one kid had about 140 yards to the green. I can hear him conversing with the caddie and both agree that they needed to carry about 120 yards, while I was going crazy (silently) saying to myself “NO! you need 100 yards max, not 120!” What was even more amusing was the caddie shouting out “That is not fair!” after ball ended up in the bunker on the opposite side just like I thought it would. I think a designer giving you a 10 to 15 yard target to hit from about 100 yards out it more than fair. Just because you chose to hit a more difficult shot, does not make it unfair.

This was going on all over the course. If you hit the correct places on the fairway, they hit a fairly straight forward approach shot and had a good shot at birdie. But when they were out of position, it required creativity to get it close and these players failed to do so time and time again. Nothing makes these players more uncomfortable than forcing them to shoot away from the pin, but that is EXACTLY what is required at Chambers Bay.

And I think that is just awesome.

And as to that “perfect” 4 iron to the 9th green... If you are hitting a 4 iron to that green, then either you are about a short a hitter as Garland or you are aiming for the back of the green by the cart path. For most players, that is a 6 iron shot landing just short of the green and letting the sideboard on the left and the contour of the green feed the ball to the middle. Almost every par three green at Chambers requires you to hit short of the green to hold right now and there is room to do so (may be except for #15, but they moved the tee up for that), if you choose not to play it correctly, you deserve whatever result you receive.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #122 on: August 25, 2010, 11:56:40 PM »
Oh, and unless we have a REALLY wet spring, I think they can get the course plenty dry for mid-June. They can just not water the course at all for entire May.

And that is pretty funny about CB being too difficult. It was just a couple of weeks ago that rumors were abound about how easy the course is and how USGA was going to pull the US Open. I think we can safely put that rumor to rest.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 12:05:47 AM by Richard Choi »

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #123 on: August 26, 2010, 12:08:46 AM »
Richard:

I know very little about course conditioning in the Northwest, but won't CBay stand a greater chance of playing really F&F in August, as its showing currently, then in June coming off a traditional wet spring? Again, relying on your insights into the course and weather those times of years. I'd really love to see the pros try to handle the course when it's in the condition it is right now.


Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #124 on: August 26, 2010, 12:17:33 AM »
Phil, no doubt it will be easier to keep the course F&F in Aug, but you have to remember that it never rains that heavily in NW. It just drizzles a lot. And once you get into May, the total amount of rain goes down even further. Even with all the rain around here, the golf courses around here typically water frequently during spring. With fescue, I think CB can go the entire winter/spring without turning the sprinklers on. With deep sandy base that Chambers has, I don't think it is impossible to keep the course dry and fast by mid-June. The rough will be more lush though...

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