News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #75 on: August 24, 2010, 12:27:20 AM »
The average score for Chambers Bay today is 79.7 and The Home Course is 75.2. There are still about 15 people who did not finish today (It must have been BRUTALLY slow at Chambers today) so the average will most definitely go above 80.

One 68 (with an EAGLE on 521 yard 14th!!!), one 69, one 70, four par 71's and rest over par at Chambers.

Not bad for a course with ideal conditions (5 to 10 mph breeze, sunny, 65') and easy pin positions :)

You add some wind and hairier pin position and USGA will have no problem defending par for US Open.

The pins were placed in MUCH MORE difficult positions at The Home Course and the wind was stronger there (10 to 15 mph). I was at the par 5 5th (650 yards) and pretty much everyone was hitting a wedge in from about 60 to 120 yards away. The pin was place between the bunkers in the back and you really had to control your distance and spin to get it close (about 1/4 hit it too hard and ended up in a bunker). Only about 1 in 3 groups made a birdie and I thought this was going to be a birdie hole with the wind at your back. A lot of putts left short with the nerves.

Marc Mandel overcame some early adversity to post 6 over 77. He hit what I thought was a VERY good approach shot on the 1st hole that bounced through the green to the bottom of the hill where he made a double. 77 was a good score for today's condition. He can make it to the matchplay by shooting par at THC, which is definitely doable.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #76 on: August 24, 2010, 12:54:56 AM »
...The pins were placed in MUCH MORE difficult positions at The Home Course and the wind was stronger there (10 to 15 mph). I was at the par 5 5th (650 yards) and pretty much everyone was hitting a wedge in from about 60 to 120 yards away. The pin was place between the bunkers in the back and you really had to control your distance and spin to get it close (about 1/4 hit it too hard and ended up in a bunker). Only about 1 in 3 groups made a birdie and I thought this was going to be a birdie hole with the wind at your back. A lot of putts left short with the nerves.
...

That's quite a hole. The green slopes off left, back, and right into bunkers, so anything that misses hole high left drains into the bunker, same with right, and any thing on direct line to the flag but going a little long drains into the bunker. That's the only one I have seen like that.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #77 on: August 24, 2010, 01:02:26 AM »

a 62 on the Home Course



Mr. Wilson has been around the block a few times ...

-  Advanced to the finals of the 2009 California State Amateur
-  Qualified for the 2008 U.S. Open at Torrey Pines, his third U.S. Open appearance,
-  Won the SCGA Mid-Amateur Championship at Toscana CC
-  Advanced to the round of 16 of the California State Amateur in 2007
-  Advanced to the round of 16 of the 2006 U.S. Mid-Amateur at Forest Highlands GC in Flagstaff
-  Advanced to the quarterfinals of the 2004 U.S. Mid-Amateur at Sea Island GC in Georgia
-  Earned medalist honors at the 2004 U.S. Mid-Amateur for a record-tying third time
-  Won the 2003 NCGA Four-Ball Championship with Todd Barsotti
-  Advanced to the semifinals of the 2002 and 2001 U.S. Mid-Amateur and was medalist in 2001
-  Was medalist at the 2001 California State Amateur Championship with a 69-72 performance in stroke play qualifying
-  Had incredible success in USGA events in 2000
   -  Advanced to the quarterfinals of the 2000 U.S. Mid-Amateur Championship
   -  Tied for medalist honors in stroke play qualifying at both the 2000 U.S. Mid-Amateur and the U.S. Amateur
   -  Was the lone amateur to make the cut at the 2000 U.S. Open
   -  Finished the 2000 season as the 17th ranked amateur in the world, according to Golfweek.
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #78 on: August 24, 2010, 09:35:23 AM »
Denny McCarthy is 17 years old from the DC area and will be a senior in high school this year.  He's had an amazing summer winning the Maryland Open, semi finalist in the US Junior Am, won the PGA Junior, etc. He plays at a local low profile club and puts his sticks away in the winter to play on his high school basketball team and I understand he's going to play golf at the University of Virginia.  He shot 71 at HC yesterday.  A friend of mine is his high school coach and he says the kid is amazing and he just goes along to watch him play.

Brian Kim

Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #79 on: August 24, 2010, 10:57:00 AM »
referencing this article:    http://www.golfweek.com/news/2010/aug/24/long-course-results-slow-play-us-am/

“We really did feel that somewhere between 2:30 and 4 o’clock today, it just got too firm on us,” Davis said. “Really well-struck shots were ending up in places that the player wasn’t being rewarded for. In the last 4, 5, maybe 6 hours of golf today, it played firmer on the greens.”

If the course is starting to get away from them, is it fair or necessary to give so many pace of play penalties?  Also, being that stroke play is held on two separate courses, and assuming davis is only referring to CB as getting too firm, does the usga try to create the same conditions for todays players, or do they water the course a little more, to create a fairer test?

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #80 on: August 24, 2010, 11:06:33 AM »
Brad, What strikes me is the phrase "well struck shots".

It implies there's a certain formula for exactly what a perfect shot is. On a firmer canvas, that discrepancy between a perfectly struck shot, and, a well played shot widens considerable.
 As a matter of fact, the cry of "I hit that perfectly" yet the results do not corroborate, is an oft heard whine from the better player that failed to take into account all the variables.

Considering the Home course is showing it's weakness, I'd say CB's different style of golf, is wonderful to see.

I'd hope Mike Davis would appreciate the differences in demands on the players, depending on the architecture, and not, over water CB to make it less of a shot maker identifier.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #81 on: August 24, 2010, 11:09:29 AM »
Just watched few groups playing the 1st and 18th and the course is playing firmer than yesterday and is borderline unfair. Saw 6 groups and none of them hit the green. Most ended up way below left even when I thought they played the correct shot. Looks like they moved some of the tougher pins to easier spots though.

Marc is 3 over through back nine and I think 6 over will be a fine score today at CB .

I'm sorry Richard, but I think you should have written the course is playing difficult or very difficult instead of "borderline unfair". Since the players on Chambers Bay are all facing the same conditions, it is fair by definition.

I like borderline unfair to all contestants.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #82 on: August 24, 2010, 11:52:07 AM »
Just watched few groups playing the 1st and 18th and the course is playing firmer than yesterday and is borderline unfair. Saw 6 groups and none of them hit the green. Most ended up way below left even when I thought they played the correct shot. Looks like they moved some of the tougher pins to easier spots though.

Marc is 3 over through back nine and I think 6 over will be a fine score today at CB .

I'm sorry Richard, but I think you should have written the course is playing difficult or very difficult instead of "borderline unfair". Since the players on Chambers Bay are all facing the same conditions, it is fair by definition.

I like borderline unfair to all contestants.

With your definitions, most all courses are unfair to the average golfer. The courses present shots that we simply cannot do. Why would we want to play a game that was unfair to us? Maybe we should just give up and quit!

The reason we don't quit is that we recognize the shots for what they are, difficult. And we devise ways to avoid them, like playing around a bunker instead of over it. When we see low and plus handicappers yelling unfair, we recognize them for what they are. Spoiled, unimaginative brats.  :P
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #83 on: August 24, 2010, 12:03:05 PM »
I would really like to watch some of the play at CB - does anyone know when it will be shown this week?

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #84 on: August 24, 2010, 12:40:37 PM »
You usually appeal penalties at the end of the round, otherwise play is slowed during the appeal process. As I pointed out in live time yesterday group #1, first off of #1 tee at Chambers Bay at 7:15 had their turn scores recorded entered into scoring in the 10:15-10:20 time frame. Three hours. The field was doomed from the start.

Craig Winter of the Oregon Golf Association is one of the rules officials. Yesterday he worked the 18th at Home Course. Today he roves 1,10,17,18 at Chambers Bay. His blog is here: http://www.oga.org/index.php/Rules/outsidedetail/C68/1974/ and he gives a bit more depth on the pace of play issues at the Home Course.

Jerry,
TV times Wed-Fri are at 3:30PDT (6:30EDT) on Golf Channel.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 12:48:40 PM by Pete_Pittock »

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #85 on: August 24, 2010, 12:46:34 PM »
For the most part Chambers Bay is playing wonderfully.  A touch of water was put on the greens which helped make the course play darn near perfect Monday morning.

The only exception to that would be the 1st hole.  I watched not only our group, where 2 of 3 ended up down below when they both thought they hit very good shots, but another group as well in the afternoon where everyone of the players ended up below.  I saw a ball hit from down below that flew up the green, almost pin high, and then roll all the way back down.  It was silly golf and in my opinion brings too much chance into determining the best golfers.

Think Shinnecock #11, thats how this hole was playing.  The stroke average was over 5.  7 was the other hole that coming into the tournament seemed to cause most players the most trepidation.  the usga moved the tee box up about 20 yards so that helped things, but there was still only about a 20 paces of the green where you could land it without having the ball come back 60 yards  

The other problem with the set up is the length of time it is taking to play the course.  The shortest group to play yesterday too 5:21, the longest about 5:57.  14 groups were assed penalty strokes, many of whom the USGA took away after appeals, but not all.  Before you jump all over these kids for slow play keep in mind that the place on a normal day takes 5 hours to play.  Throw in there the ridiculous speeds of the greens (i'd say at least 13),  the incredible firmness of the whole course, and the competitive conditions, its no wonder its taking 5:30 on average to play the course.  Most groups were not waiting until they came till the last hole, where there was often a 15 minute wait.  Our group played what I would say at a good pace, we never waited on anyone until the last hole and no one ever waited on us, the round still took 5:30 hours.

Marc thought his 77 was maybe the best competitive round of golf he had ever played.  It could have been as good as a 74, and as bad as a 82-83.  There just isn't much difference between 75-82 out there.  We figure we need to shoot somewhere around par at the home course this afternoon to make the cut.  The home course is without a doubt an easier course by 5 or 6 shots, but its still 7400 yards and the greens and surrounds are firmer than 95% of the courses in this country, making it difficult to score on.

By the way, everyone in our practice group was thrilled to have Richard Choi walk us through the course on Saturday.  I know all of them found his knowledge of the course to be a great help.  He without a doubt must know that course as good as anyone out there.

You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #86 on: August 24, 2010, 01:03:37 PM »

If the course is starting to get away from them, is it fair or necessary to give so many pace of play penalties?  Also, being that stroke play is held on two separate courses, and assuming davis is only referring to CB as getting too firm, does the usga try to create the same conditions for todays players, or do they water the course a little more, to create a fairer test?



Are the leaving the same hole locations for both days at both courses?   In an attempt of fairness ... ;)


I know very little about the Home Course, but has there ever been stroke play qualifying over two courses that are so different that puts pressure on the tournament committee to make each course play as similar from one day to the next?
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #87 on: August 24, 2010, 01:32:55 PM »
Didn't Merion and P Cricket Club? have a big differential in scores too? That of course is not saying those two courses are dissimilar.

I have from time to time advocated using two courses of different styles for the US Open to identify the best golfer. E.g. my last suggestion was French Lick with shot demanding Pete Dye and strategic Donald Ross.

It seems these two might fit such a bill. I would like to see it done with Chambers played at full fairway width, and the Home Course tightened up like a typical open.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #88 on: August 24, 2010, 01:34:45 PM »
Mike, from the paint makers they had on the course, the pin positions were no more than 10 feet apart from one day to the next. Some pins where definitely easier from one day to the next, but I am guessing they will mix that up to make them fairly even.

I would say most of the people who shot +4 and over on THC have no shot of making the match play (and that includes Lion Kim! Doh!) unless USGA significantly softened the greens (I would think that is highly unfair). Based on the fact that the cut line was +1 after yesterday, I expect that to move to +4 or so after today. The weather is warmer and the greens are going to bake even more. I wonder if they will synge the greens between groups today.

Jason, the pleasure was all mine. I am VERY impressed with Marc's round as he faced adversities early in both nines and still pulled in par after par to put him in position. Many lesser players would have blown up after that roll on the 1st green  (and they did based on the scores on CB). I thought Marc's hit was just perfect there. There are 68's and 69's to be had on THC, so go get'em!

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #89 on: August 24, 2010, 03:22:26 PM »
Looks like USGA watered the greens more liberally last night as there are more 1 under and even scores at Chambers as players make the turn. Early groups on THC have finished and most everyone bettered their scores from yesterday. Matthew Harvey shot 87 at Chambers yesterday and 70 today at THC!

It will be interesting to see if there are indeed much lower scores on CB today.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #90 on: August 24, 2010, 05:03:18 PM »
David,
You haven't jinxed him. He is T2 and shot 69 at Chambers Bay.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #91 on: August 24, 2010, 05:54:16 PM »
Justin shooting 71 yesterday at THC was impressive, shooting 69 on Chambers Bay is phenomenal for such a young kid. Looks like he birdied almost every "birdie" holes at CB.

Jeff Wilson followed his 62 from yesterday with a 74 today at Chambers. I don't think anyone is going to touch his -7 under total.

It is looking most likely +4 will be the cutoff.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #92 on: August 24, 2010, 09:38:39 PM »
I think that is what so great about this type of setup. Once you soften the greens, it becomes eminently playable for players of all skills. There aren't many places where most players are going to have anything worse than a double and lost balls are quite rare.

All of the second round results are not in yet (and it is not looking good for Marc), but I do believe Chambers Bay will get a big bump up in "Resistance to Scoring" category in the future.

Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #93 on: August 24, 2010, 09:44:33 PM »
The only reason any hole location would be changed between the two stroke play rounds is if it was so damaged that it could not be reasonably repaired. If that were the case, it would be moved no more than 2-3 feet unless there was not a reasonably similar location within that area. ANy other paint mark anyone might have seen on a green was probably for a future location, or possibly the USGA decided early yesterday morning that the originally chosen location had become, for some reason such as a change in the condition of the green or the weather, unacceptable.
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #94 on: August 24, 2010, 09:53:26 PM »
Has there ever been more discrepancy between two courses hosting the US Am - ever?
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #95 on: August 24, 2010, 10:05:18 PM »
The day is not done yet, but there is a VERY good possibility that the cut line could move to +7 and there will be a MASSIVE playoff (20+ players). If that happens, they will have to play tomorrow morning as there will not be enough daylight today. The +7 players may not even find out till tomorrow morning as some groups may not finish today.

Man, the wait has got to be excruciating...

UPDATE: Well, it looks like the cut will be at 6+ with a playoff between about 10 to 12 player for a couple of spots. I forgot there are just as many players falling out of +5 and +6 at Chambers as players falling in with a good round from THC.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 10:38:37 PM by Richard Choi »

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #96 on: August 24, 2010, 10:20:45 PM »
Looking like another BRUTAL day at Chambers Bay as only TWO players shot par OR better (Justin at 69 and Todd White at 69).

And I thought yesterday played tough... wow...

The average is going to be easily over 80 after today. This has been just a bloodbath.

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #97 on: August 25, 2010, 10:02:16 AM »
Go Wildcats! Congrats to Mr. Chun for making it to match play.

Brent Hutto

Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #98 on: August 25, 2010, 10:08:12 AM »
Looks like a 16-for-6 playoff. That's gotta take four or five holes, don't you think? Apparently my local home-boy that I've been following birdied 18 at about oh-dark-thirty yesterday to get into the playoff.

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #99 on: August 25, 2010, 10:37:13 AM »
Looking like another BRUTAL day at Chambers Bay as only TWO players shot par OR better (Justin at 69 and Todd White at 69).

And I thought yesterday played tough... wow...

The average is going to be easily over 80 after today. This has been just a bloodbath.

Rich,

Thanks for taking the time to go through CB in so much detail, as well as keeping us who can't make it out your way for the US Am in the loop.

I keep hearing how difficult CB is playing, and you reiterated that again with the bloodbath statement.  In your opinion, is this a positive or a negative for the USGA as well as CB?  You've got the best amateur players on the planet making the trip and the average score is over 80.  Seems like something's amiss to me. 

Scott
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back