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Richard Choi

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2010, 11:56:18 AM »
Yikes, the course rating for the tournament is 78.6, with a slope of 138. What is the highest course rating ever for US Am?

Garland Bayley

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2010, 11:58:06 AM »
Yikes, the course rating for the tournament is 78.6, with a slope of 138. What is the highest course rating ever for US Am?

I played the Home Course last week on the way to Sagebrush and it beat me up. I posted the score. Perhaps I shouldn't have given the unusual conditions.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Richard Choi

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2010, 12:10:58 PM »
A nice video tour of both courses...

http://www.thenewstribune.com/chambersbayprimer/

Tom Yost

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2010, 01:27:08 PM »
I get all jazzed up to watch this on TV and now realize it is not until NEXT week!    :P

Jerry Kluger

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2010, 01:52:16 PM »
Those are great videos of the holes at CB - what makes things more difficult is that the sand is very soft and the grasses in the sandy areas can be very thick making recovery shots very difficult.

William_G

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2010, 02:29:25 PM »
Richard and Harland, thanks!

As this USGA championship at CB is a prelim to the US Open there, I wonder where the crowds will go on the course in 2015 and what changes may be made to the course after this championship.

Also will the sand all be played as a bunker as WS was or will raked bunkers be the only hazards with sand in them???? thanks
It's all about the golf!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2010, 02:42:58 PM »
It's a huge piece of land, so the course should be able to handle large crowds for the Open. They specifically built it so that spectators could line the south side of 18 for the length of the hole in the event they were chosen to host a major championship. The north side of 1 has a view of the same section of the course.

It will be interesting to see what they do with the slope on the east side of the course. It would be possible to watch nearly the whole course from there with a good set of binocs.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matthew Sander

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2010, 11:10:23 PM »
I'm going to be interested to see how the 5th hole plays. I don't like what they've done with it for the championship (narrowed the fairway from the right), but as wide as it was the change was probably inevitable. When I played there, it was the hole that stood out more than any other on the course as a hole whose playing characteristics were probably going to be changed for the Amateur and the Open.

The strategic decision of the hole was simple. Note which side of the green the pin was on and play to that side of the extremely wide fairway. If you got caught on the wrong side of the fairway, you had a shot over that front/center bunker to a shallow green that was really difficult to stop. You could play to the open side of the green, but you would leave yourself a long difficult two putt. If someone didn't take the pin into consideration and just used the width of the fairway as a security blanket and bombed away, they could have left themselves a much more difficult shot. Now, it looks as if going right of the hole's centerline will put you in wispy rough, forcing the players to favor the left. It will play tough if they give them a steady diet of right hand hole locations, but the strategic merit of the hole is not what it could be.

We played in June '08 with splendid weather and the turf was as firm and crispy as I'd ever experienced. If it is playing softer, the shot to the shallow green wouldn't be as scary, so hopefully they have it firm and fast for the championship.

Also, does anyone think they'll use the short left hand green on #5? With other good short par 4s on the course (10 and 12 for example) I doubt it.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2010, 08:22:21 AM »
Richard,
You wrote, "#4: Normally a par 5, but will play as a par 4. Long uphill hole with a brand new green. I just hope they keep the green speed consistent here with the new grass."

It amazes me how people think about par during a match play event.  To me, the concept of par is thrown out the window in match play.  (I'm not knocking you - I'm knocking the USGA!)

Sean Leary

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2010, 09:15:36 AM »
Dan,

Even in match play it still matters psychologically when you are standing on that tee box. Especially for this level of player.

Richard Choi

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2010, 10:02:55 AM »
Dan, they do play strokes for the first two days :)

Dan Herrmann

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2010, 10:14:05 AM »
Sure do, but what difference would it make in stroke play either?

Richard Choi

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2010, 10:15:41 AM »
Show the current score?

Jerry Kluger

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2010, 12:38:18 PM »
Richard: How are they playing the sand - will they have waste areas versus bunkers - that sand is really soft and with spectators walking through it you could see some really ugly lies not to mention what the long grass could be like after it is trampled on. 

Richard Choi

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2010, 01:27:52 PM »
I am going to get a confirmation on Monday when I get there, but this is what I found...

Mike Davis of the USGA said there would often be a transition within a sandy area where the sand is raked, and thereby a hazard, to a waste area where it isn’t, and that players and officials will have to know where that transition is. And if they don’t, they’ll know they have to ask.

I think after the PGA, there will be plenty of players asking. And bad lies in the sand is all part of it.

I also found this web page which has beautiful pictures of the hole and detailed diagrams of the greens.

http://chambersbaygolf.com/kemper/courses/layout10.asp?id=173&page=3350

Also a nice primer on Golfweek: http://www.golfweek.com/news/2010/aug/19/klein-what-look-chambers-bay/

Times article on Chambers Bay maintenance philosophy: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2011935,00.html
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 01:40:03 PM by Richard Choi »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2010, 01:41:55 PM »
Richard,

Those diagrams have been up on the site from before they opened. I would think the diagram of the 4th green no longer applies after the redo.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2010, 04:23:32 PM »
Richard get out there and cheer on Lion Kim!  I want a full report, shot-by-shot!

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2010, 04:49:37 PM »
I will try Chuck. I am just not sure how much I will be able to move around while marshalling. But he is definitely one of the players I will be keeping my eyes on.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2010, 08:50:01 PM »
Just got back from a practice round with Mandel brothers, and boy, those practice rounds are long (~6 hours). It was very educational and enlightening, however. It was very fun watching players of this caliber try to take this course on.

The group included a couple of Marc's friends and Randy Haag, a very accomplished amateur player from San Fran (has blog - http://randyhaag.com/, will be posting his review of the course tonight).

Overall, the course is going to be a BEAR if they play from the tips on every hole. Guys were definitely exhausted at the end of the round and every 500+ yard par 4's brought a little groan from the group. The planned hole placements are on the easier side from what I can see. Every hole has easy, medium, hard, and impossible pin areas and I saw none in the impossible category. Few of the shorter par 3's and par 4's had a hard pin positions but most others were easy or medium placements.

But that does not mean the course is going to play easy. The course is about as brown as it can get (quite good looking, in my opinion), and greens are quite firm (though it probably can get little a bit firmer, but not likely with some rain in the forecast). I saw no pitchmarks, even with wedges. There is no way you are going to land the ball next to the pin and have it stay there. On most holes, even with wedges, the ball will bounce at least 10 to 15 feet away from where it lands.

Marc guessed that the average score will be around 78 or so and I agree after seeing the course today.

Here are some hole by hole highlights.

#1- 501 yards, par 4 – It is playing extremely long. Most players cannot carry the initial ridge off the tee and are not getting any roll because of that. These guys will be playing 210 to 230 yard shot into the green. There was a perfectly hit shot that landed in the front part of the green, ran through to the middle, got caught in the dip in the middle of the green and rolled right off the green (about 10 yards away below 10 feet). I must say, that brought a smile to my face.   If you get caught in the left side way below, you will be lucky to get a double bogey.

#3 – 190 yards, par 3 – They are playing from a tee that I didn’t even know that existed! This hole is absolutely impossible to play from this distance. Anything it in the middle of the green was running through to the back bunker. If you hit it short, most got caught in the upslope and stopped before the green. The group hit about 10 shots and none of them came within 40 feet of the hole. And I thought this was going to be a birdie hole.

#4 – 568 yards, par 5 – Although this is playing uphill, these guys were able to reach this in 2 (at least to the front). Because it is a new green, it is still soft and running about 1 to 2 feet slower. This is definitely a birdie opportunity.

#6 – 479 yards, par 4 – What is a nice 3 wood, 9 iron hole from the sand tees is an absolutely brute from this distance. Because of the severe slope from the back to front, this is one of the few holes where you can attack the pin. But with the back pin position and the fact that it is hard to feel the wind from the fairways, there will be many shots that will land short, leaving a tough 2 putt.

#7 – 508 yards, par 4 – I knew this hole was going to be hard, but this hole is borderline unfair right now. The balls were not carrying much and guys were barely carrying the sand trap to the fairway, leaving about 200 yard shots to the a severe uphill pin. With the long irons and 3 woods, even the balls that landed in the middle of the green were running straight to the back, even running into the long fescue in the back, which is STILL preferable to leaving it short and kicking it back 60 yards down the fairway. The pin is way in the front and the putts and chip from the back of the green will be treacherous. And you HAVE to be on the right side of the spin that runs in the middle of the green, if you are left, you can hit the green in the middle and still have the ball run up and back down the false front. It is just a brutal, brutal hole. There will be plenty doubles. A par is a VERY good score here.

#9 – 227 yards, par 3 – Houston, we have a problem. The normal play is to land on the sideboard and let the ball feed down to the green. That is not possible from this tee box. Although guys were hitting 6 irons, the balls that landed in the middle bounced straight through and the ball that landed on the sideboard were running straight in to the sand trap on the right. The balls that landed short left were mostly staying there. The only way to get the ball close to the pin is to hit a low running shot well short of the green and letting it run to the ridge. Not sure how many guys have that shot.

#12 – 304 yards, par 3 – The guys were little puzzled when I told them not to bother laying up on this hole, but driver is the only play here. All four hit there drives in the front of the green and had very reasonable birdie chances from there. The pins is probably in the easiest position possible (front left in the middle of a saddle) and there are probably 6 or 7 ways to get close which all the players tried. If you can drive, this is a birdie hole.

#14 – 521 yards, par 4 – From this back tee, the bunker in the middle of the fairway is out of reach for most. These guys were barely carrying the waste area towards the bunker. There will be many people laying up to the right of the bunker with 240 yards in to the green. Good thing the pin is in the relatively easy position. If the pin was front right, nobody will birdie this hole.

#15 – 246 yards, par 3 - I hope they do not use this tee during the stroke play. With any wind, there will be many people not reaching the green. Very, very difficult to hit and hold.

#17 – 183 yards, par 3 – There is absolutely no way anyone holds the green if they aim at the planned pin (in the right peninsula), not even Tiger unless there is a stiff head wind. I believe they will play from the tee box up, which means it will probably be about 175 yards and downhill. Even from there, these guys could not hold the green on the right. Even if you leave the ball right in the middle of the green, you are going to have a very difficult putt to the pin as you have carry an uphill hump from which the green runs down to the sand. Any birdie on this hole will be almost by accident.

#18 – 604 yards, par 5 – This hole is playing very easy from tee to green as the bunkers are out of reach for most players and the landing area for the second is very wide. But with the planned pin in the back just left of a hump, not many guys are going to get it close. Even with a wedge from a 100 yards, either you hit the tier before the very back and stayed in the middle about 40 to 60 feet away or you landed on the top tier, hit the backboard and roll right back down. The only way you can get it close is to hit a wedge to the well right of the pin and let it feed down. Not sure how many guys saw that today.

The general consensus after the round about the course was very positive (much more positive than I thought it would be). These guys raved about how it played and how tough it was. Randy even liked it better than courses in Bandon. We shall see how these guys feel about it when the wind blows a bit harder (practically no wind today).
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 09:00:27 PM by Richard Choi »

Mike Wagner

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2010, 10:56:21 PM »
Richard,

Funny you mention Randy - I as just reading his blog - this guy is the REAL DEAL.  Saw him earlier this year roll in putt after putt.  There were numerous people trying the side saddle the next week!

His most recent post on the Home Course is outstanding - something every young player in this field should read.  Young guys just don't think like that for the most part, and they could learn a boat load on how to manage a golf course like an accomplished player.

David_Tepper

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2010, 11:17:19 PM »
NorCal golfer Randy Haag (who has qualified for match play in 19 of 23 USGA championships) reviews all 18 holes of the Home Course at:

www.randyhaag.com
 
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 11:19:26 PM by David_Tepper »

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2010, 09:43:13 AM »
Yes, Randy is awesome. He saw a lot of things on Chambers that 99% of the players will miss. I think the group as a whole is much better prepared due to playing with him.

Another thing I noticed was that SW/LW players will have a very difficult time. If you try to fly it from off the green, the targets were often very tiny as you have to note the swales and hump. After a few holes, most of the guys were chipping with hybrids and woods, and putter was a frequent choice from 30 to 40 yards away.

This really will be unlike any other US Am and I am really interested to see who emerges out of this.

Mike Wagner

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2010, 11:27:22 AM »
What's his view on the brush tee?

Sean Leary

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2010, 11:44:17 AM »
How fast are the greens rolling? Bumpy?

Richard Choi

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Re: 2010 US Amateur at Chambers Bay (+ The Home Course)
« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2010, 11:57:11 AM »
No brush tee as obviously I did not play. But I am sure I can convert him :)

The greens are rolling very true. Did not see any hops on putts. Everyone had no complaints about the greens and Marc thought it was too fast (it looked like about 10 to 11 to me).

But I expect plenty of complaints about the greens from the field. Most have never seen greens like this and the cries of "tricked up greens" will be frequent, I am afraid.

But right now, the course is playing exactly the way it should. Getting a birdie is like trying to solve a Rubik's Cube as you cannot just fire at the pin. You have to carefully plan out your strategy, angles, and appropriate shot shape. I know a phrase "shot shaper's course" is thrown around WAY too frequently (especially on tightly tree-lined courses like Sahalee), but this is the real deal. Everything is open and fairways are as wide as these competitors have ever seen, but unless you are creative and create the required shot shape as needed, going low is going to be very difficult.

One of the players was from England and he commented how authentic the playing conditions were to ones in Scotland. The only difference he said was the length. He said you don't hit long approaches like this in Scotland so frequently.

After watching the faux links at Whistling Straits, the golf fans are about to see the real thing in action.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 12:09:58 PM by Richard Choi »

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