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Sam Kestin

  • Karma: +0/-0
This probably seems like a bizarre and/or ticky-tack question to toss out, but I played Piping Rock Club yesterday in the Met PGA Pro-Am and some idle time there left me wondering something...can/does the presence/absence of a good yardage book impact one's general assessment of a golf course?

I'd noticed that of the various places in the Met Area I've played over the past few months, a very slim few seem to offer players much in the way of yardage maps. Now, there are plenty of golf courses I've seen where that wouldn't really matter in the least...but Piping (to me) is definitely not one of them. The various changes in elevation and doglegs up and down and around the awesome piece of land they have combine to demand that a player be very precise in choosing his line off most of the tees. Five yards too far on this line, too short on that line, too far left at X distance from the tee or too far right at Y distance from the tee could often be the difference between a reasonable birdie opportunity or an unlikely chance at par.

Courses like that (or many of the other yardage book-less old school clubs around here--e.g. Inwood, Metropolis, Quaker Ridge, Rockaway Hunting Club, ect.) are really introducing the element of chance into non-members' rounds by asking them to grab the driver and fire away without much of a basis on which to formulate any kind of strategy as to the best way to attack a given hole. I wonder if any of you folks agree with me that oftentimes this little oversight on the part of some similar venues can actually influence the way your critical eye assesses the quality of the golf course.

I don't mean for this to sound like a knock on the courses for not having them, I just wonder from a course architecture standpoint if sometimes I've given too much/too little credit to courses I've played because the lack of detailed information about the layout has kept me from being able to come to a well-informed judgement as to the strategic appeal of the place.

For example, one of my favorite golf courses anywhere is Tobacco Road--which I've seen very conflicting opinions about over time. I've heard and read opinions about it ranging from full-blown shreddings of what a joke it is to the kind of praise usually reserved for courses with a whole lot more pedigree. I've wondered why that might be and started to think about how I experienced playing that place each time.

Without fail, every round I've ever played there, I literally carried around that yardage book like it was the nuclear football the entire trip around the place. Every tee box was so much fun because you'd look up at what you'd see and then look down at what the hole actually looks like and realize the giant catalog of choices balancing risk and reward that exist on almost every hole out there. Holes like #16 from the tee look absurd, but when you glance down at the book you realize that no matter what your eye may tell you the reality is that there are TONS of options to be considered and there are quite a few very safe plays among them. I was tickled reaching each successive hole and going through the internal debate we all have when deciding between various tactics on the golf course.

Without that book, however, I'd estimate that well over 50% of the various strategic choices available would NEVER have occurred to me had I had only my eyes to rely on. I can totally see why a lot of people would hate Tobacco if they had to play it without that book. Holes like the par-4 15th can be completely overlooked for their brilliance when you haven't the slightest clue standing on the tee what your options really are. At that hole, only a yardage book or a SkyCaddy or any of those other GPS devices could make you aware of all the things you must be aware of when standing on that tee.

The top of the two photos at the bottom illustrates the view from the tee.The colored dots denote possible lines you could take off the tee. The photo below shows where shots played on those lines would end up.

I don't know about you guys, but I know that I would never in one million years not just hit the ball on the lighter blue line if I didn't have any knowledge or understanding of the other ways you could actually play the hole. If I played my first round out there and got to this hole, I'd probably have hit driver on that line and run through the fairway--finding out the hard way that really you can't hit the ball much further than 225-ish on that line. As quickly as I know I can often rush to judgement, I really might under those circumstances just launch into a tirade about what a bunch of BS the golf course was and how all these blind shots are really lame and so on and so forth. Could have easily ended up hating the place...all because my not having the road map to the course put me in a position where I couldn't at all experience what Tobacco Road is all about.

At face value, it really doesn't seem like a course having a yardage book should or could be a thing that makes or breaks one's opinion of the layout. But the more I got to thinking about it, I really started feeling like there could be a chance that a lot of courses all over the place are getting bad reviews or ratings when something as simple as the commissioning of a yardage book might provide the further illustration required to shift the balance of public opinion towards the positive.

You folks on this site are much more astute observers of all things golf course than I am--so I'm highly curious to hear what you think. Can the absence of the key information one finds in a yardage book at all influence your experience playing a golf course? Is it possible that the lack of detailed yardage information could be seriously impacting the reputation and therefore the bottom line of many public and private clubs across the US?

Does anyone know why EVERY decent golf course doesn't have at least a bare-bones yardage guide? I mean, it's astounding to me that any private club or high-end daily fee track doesn't at least have something available. Even if they couldn't sell them, are these seemingly inexpensive items really not worth most of these places peeling off a tiny fraction of the yearly budget to ensure that nobody plays the golf course without being fully apprised of every possible strategic nuance to it? Are there any specific courses you can think of that the details provided in the yardage book/device made the experience more enjoyable to you?

Maybe I'm making an issue out of something that's not an issue...but either way I'm intrigued to hear your opinions...
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 08:57:08 PM by Sam Kestin »

Sam Kestin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Argh...one of these days someone will teach this chimp how to upload photos to this site in a way that works every time...I'll try again...

John Moore II

OK, how many non-member escorted rounds do you think those places see? My guess is very few so the market for yardage books is very small.

As far as Tobacco Road, I played there my first time with no yardage book. Played just fine shooting 75 with 5 birdies. The bogey's I made were not because of bad yardage either, just poorly executed shots.

No, a lack of a yardage book does not impact my opinion of a course, not one bit. Why do private courses need yardage books? Seriously.

Patrick_Mucci

NO[/b]


On more than a few rounds, I've shot some of my best scores the first time I played a golf course.

I think it's because I DIDN'T know where the trouble was, I just asked the caddy where to hit it and how far I was.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
JKM:

Quote
Why do private courses need yardage books? Seriously.

Members' guests and charity outings? I think they are a nice keepsake and extremely beneficial on the course.

Pat: If your eyesight is going and the font is too small on your screen, just hold down CTRL and tap the + key a couple of times ;)

John Moore II

JKM:

Quote
Why do private courses need yardage books? Seriously.

Members' guests and charity outings? I think they are a nice keepsake and extremely beneficial on the course.

Pat: If your eyesight is going and the font is too small on your screen, just hold down CTRL and tap the + key a couple of times ;)

OK, charity outing maybe. But why does the guest need one? He's literally playing with a yardage guide. I know my host at Old Town pointed out perfectly where the best line was, what the yardage was and a lot of other stuff that was much more useful than any paper yardage book.

And as far as the + key, that just entertained me for about 5 minutes, moving my font in and out.  :D

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
I have mixed feelings about yardage books.

I first got interested in golf course architecture by the little hole-by-hole booklet written by Charles Price to describe Harbour Town in 1971.  It was so simple even a 10-year-old could understand it -- "You want to drive close to the left-hand fairway bunker here so you can avoid the tree on the right with a long second shot to the green."  Brilliant.

But in general, I think that a course should reward local knowledge, but that said local knowledge ought to be earned, instead of just bought in the pro shop.  And I would prefer that players appreciate my courses for what they are, instead of for what I tell them to think.

I do think yardage books have become essential marketing tools for new courses, however, and I'm certain that some courses are ranked higher than they should be because the rater looks back at his book a month later and says, "Oh yeah, that hole was pretty good."  Even if it wasn't!

Melvyn Morrow


Playing with someone who is distance crazy is like going to the pictures with someone who keeps asking questions all the way through or having kids in the back on a long journey asking “are we nearly there yet”.

It has the ability of ruining the game for others.

Melvyn

PS Burn all books and rangefinders beside the 1st Tee for an enjoyable game of golf IMHO of course. ;)

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
I have a fine collection of yardage books that I look at every so often.  With very few exceptions I've never enjoyed using them on the course during a round.  I enjoy the special tournament editions done by Strokesaver but overall I feel the books are just a marketing accessory and of little use.   I prefer to eyeball the distance, and enjoy the consequences,  as in pre-Jack days.

Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
 8) Opinion.. NO

Remembrance?  YES

PLAY?  PROBABLY IF ONE DOESN'T HAVE A CADDY OR EXPERIENCED PLAYER TO HELP A LITTLE.

at my home courses, i know every shot by looking at it and judging weather and what swing i have going.. and how aggressive i can be
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think it has become an important issue for some. We ran out of planners about 10 days ago and in that period I have had two emails complaining, one stated it wholly ruined his experience, I gave him a replay voucher. I am not in personal favour of distance aids, planners, GPS but mine is a minority opinion.
The probably bring in £5000 per year, and they are essential in giving many enjoyment.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
I have mixed feelings about yardage books.

But in general, I think that a course should reward local knowledge, but that said local knowledge ought to be earned, instead of just bought in the pro shop.  And I would prefer that players appreciate my courses for what they are, instead of for what I tell them to think.


While I see a yardage book as no different than a caddie or rangefinder, I personally get a headache on the rare occasions when I've attempted to use one.
When I play a strange course for the first time I try to hit it where I can see it land, even if that means laying up.(which explains why my lowest scores are on courses I've never seen)
I'm in the process of having one made for our role in cohosting this year's MidAm and it's amazing how much extraneous info the yardage book company tries to put in .(I don't need to know the carry distance of a bunker 30 yards into the rough and 50 yards offline)
but, it's the world we live in....


perhaps the distances have to be in there so players can tell that they're in bunkers ;D
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
NO

On more than a few rounds, I've shot some of my best scores the first time I played a golf course.

I think it's because I DIDN'T know where the trouble was, I just asked the caddy where to hit it and how far I was.

Agreed, I've done that as well. But isn't the golf course a better test when you know all of the potential trouble? Just for an easy example, consider #9 at Augusta. Imagine you're playing it for the first time and you don't realize its severity. Isn't it a better hole when you know that anything short runs back 50 yards, and anything long leaves a crazy putt? Then it gets in your head and that's when the whole thing comes to life.

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Yes and No.  When I played Royal Porthcawl in '08, they were in the midst of, or just finalizing, some changes to the course (i.e. lengthening and changing the direction on #12 (par 5).  We had no caddy, no yardage book, no GPS-type thing, and generally no idea where we were going on many of the holes.  And that turned a 4 hour round into nearly a 5 hour slog, all the while limiting us in the understanding and enjoyment of the course and its design.  With that said, I really liked this course, it's one of my favorites that I've played, and would love to go back now that I have some idea which way to go.  But, I agree with Pat Mucci, that now I know where the trouble is, I'm sure I'll find it!

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
I have a fine collection of yardage books that I look at every so often.  With very few exceptions I've never enjoyed using them on the course during a round.  I enjoy the special tournament editions done by Strokesaver but overall I feel the books are just a marketing accessory and of little use.   I prefer to eyeball the distance, and enjoy the consequences,  as in pre-Jack days.



Gary

I'm the same. I started off collecting ball markers for each new (to me) course I played and then it quickly became a strokesaver. Nice souveneir which gives info on club/course info which is good to refer to. Like you I don't usually refer to them on the course, and I often like to try and play the course and see how it explains itself to me. If you need a strokesaver to understand the basic premis of the hole I reckon somethings wrong.

Adrian

As always, insightful comment from a business perspective. I probably wouldn't bother to complain if I couldn't get a strokesaver, not that it would spoil my round in any case but as I say, I like them just to have as a keepsake.

Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
NO

On more than a few rounds, I've shot some of my best scores the first time I played a golf course.

I think it's because I DIDN'T know where the trouble was, I just asked the caddy where to hit it and how far I was.

Agreed, I've done that as well. But isn't the golf course a better test when you know all of the potential trouble? Just for an easy example, consider #9 at Augusta. Imagine you're playing it for the first time and you don't realize its severity. Isn't it a better hole when you know that anything short runs back 50 yards, and anything long leaves a crazy putt? Then it gets in your head and that's when the whole thing comes to life.

For a moment I thought Pat was having a laugh with his caddy reference but obviously not. Just shows how the other half live. I'll need to buddy it up with Mr Mucci some time  :)

Niall

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
While the lack of a yardage book does not affect my opinion of a course, I do like them. Case in point, Rock Creek did not have one, but I loved the course nonetheless. I hope they eventually get one though.

I have a pretty nice collection of them. My course did not have one for years so I made my own. Then we got the Senior Event and one was finally made for us. It is certainly better than the one I made though.
Mr Hurricane

Jon Heise

  • Karma: +0/-0
^ I'm with Jim.  They're not essential.  I'm going to shoot whatever I shoot with or without one.  But I do like to collect stuff.
I still like Greywalls better.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think it's a "nice to have" not a "need to have."

I do find myself buying yardage books on some courses, but then not actually using them as many times the holes are somewhat straightforward and a detailed guide my not be needed. If you have a caddy or are a club with a caddy program I can't imagine why you would need them.

One thing that they are nice for are the green contour maps.

I think the last one I bought was at Brown Deer Park last month, mostly because I thought it was cool they were selling their old PGA Tour yardage books.
H.P.S.

Brian Laurent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Talk about a pace of play inhibitor!  Trying to read most of these things takes an interpreter, matching the blue dot to point a, b, c and d and so on!  It gets pretty ridiculous.  There is simply no substitute for a good caddy or playing partner that has a little bit of knowledge on the course.
"You know the two easiest jobs in the world? College basketball coach or golf course superintendent, because everybody knows how to do your job better than you do." - Roy Williams | @brianjlaurent | @OHSuperNetwork

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
I've used them and found them very helpful on a course that I've never played.  I like to play fast wouldn't want to wait on some guy with his nose in a book on every shot.  But a quick look at a book doesn't have to slow play.  I have no problem with GPS because I believe it speeds up play.  I don't bother with either if the breeze it up.  I just eyeball the distance and decide what to hit.  

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
I would also be willing to bet that less than 10% of golfers actually know and understand how to read a legit yardage book. Even less know how to read a pin sheet! :)
H.P.S.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
No.  In fact, I'd rather play courses without yardage books.  In my experience, and maybe this is just the guys I play with, when they use yardage books, play slows down a lot because they're spending too much time parsing the details in the yardage book.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
It would definitely not affect my opinion of a golf course. Most courses have a definitive 150 marker whether it is a white plate, shrub, tree etc. Many also have a 100 and 200 yard marker. Even if you are off the fairway these should be sufficient to get pretty good yardages to the green. As far as hazard carries and layup distances you may to live and learn on your first play on a particular course. I doubt the game was any less fun before the advent of yardage books and GPS/Lasers. A simple black and white striped removable barber pole at 150 in on the the par 4`s and 5`s is a great target from the tee as well as a distance indicator. 

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Yes, I think yardage books are very important and helpful.  Less so now that I have a rangefinder, but still useful.

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