Is #18 at Yale a great hole?

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

In response to the NGLA question regarding #18, I ask the board for their thoughts/opinions on this (Crazy) CBM(/SR?) hole.

Limited to one option off of the tee - Hit is straight or make Double Bogey (Or Worse)
Multiple options on your 2nd shot - High Road or Low Road?

Granted the 3rd shot at Yale differs in topographical quality from NGLA, but both holes have wrecked a lot of rounds.

On the other hand, maybe there was no other routing option suitable to get back to the 1st tee/clubhouse area, and this was the best that they could do.

Thoughts and vehement reactions???

KLP

[CHC1948]

Kenny,

I'm not sure if I would consider the eighteenth as a great hole but I do think of it as a very good finish.  I believe that you do have several options off the tee (I've only played it once), but left is more of a bail out area and right is risky but cuts off yardage.  The left side of the fairway tends to open up the right lay-up area.  I remember being able to go either way from my drive (which was long on the right), I chose left and I had a perfect nine down to the green.  The approach shot is as good as it gets from up there.  

The topography of the 18th does suggest that there were not to many other options for the eighteenth hole.  I do remember reading something about the eighteenth green being located somewhere else originally.  Any explaination/pictures would be appreciated.

Craig

[Wayne Freeman]

  The last hole at Yale is totally out of character with the rest of that great golf course and bugs me no end.  I've hit good drives and second shots only to have my ball roll off the fairway on the right and be lost in the deep rough.  I think they should either widen the upper fairway on the left side or just get rid of all the rough on the right side so all balls hit there would just roll to the lower fairway, still making the hole very tough.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

My guess is that the absence of funds and habit are responsible for the seperating terrain to grow as thick dense rough.

If the dividing area was closely mown, or light rough, I think you'd have a unique and good finishing hole.

It's another reason to champion the maintainance meld

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Good thoughts by all so far.

In no particular order...

Patrick:

We as a collective group have bandied about Yale's unionized work force in the past with funding and lack of concern by the workers being at the forefront of the problems.  The Golf Week article last fall took them to task mightily for myriad of sins - some from a (Botched?) restoration and others from maintainance issues.  While the article was a harsh wake-up call to action, there is a pattern of neglect with Yale's facilities (The crumbling of the Yale Bowl is an obvious starting point) that justified the means.  

While Yale's 18th is a one-of-a kind test, I do not come away from the hole feeling feeling as positive about the course as I had prior to start that hole.  A pity.  The 18th at NGLA is blessed with a spectacular piece of property/setting, especially with the silouetted pin.  From my perspective, while difficult, the 18th hole at Yale does not serve the prior holes justice and culminate in a positive explanation point.  From an architect's point of view, it would be hard to exceed the splendor of #2, #4, #8-#11, #13, and #17 - a tough task indeed!  Did Raynor/Macdonald run out of steam, enthusiasm or $?  I do know that not every course can finish in the exclamation points of Pebble & NGLA.  Bethpage Black has a similar problem with a whimper on 18.

CHC 1948:

To a first time player, there appears to be a very limited amount of direction as you stand on the tee.  "Hit it here or suffer mightily" appears to be the only option.  Driving to the left side of the fairway brings the meandering water into play.  Trying to carry the hill on the right with your tee shot offers no certain benefit.  Most people swing and hope for the best.

The second shot is extremely disorienting.  "Where do we go from here" is a familiar question.  Such uncertainty in direction leads to undisciplined swings with score-raising results.  The neophyte will be further confounded as he scales the hill to find newly discovered split fairway.

The fescued rough in the middle between the upper and lower fairways might as well be staked as out-of-bounds or as a lateral hazard since finding a ball in that morass is nigh to the impossible.  Only after two solid shots does the downhill approach to the green (Which is eminently three-jackable) offer any discernable shot.

Wayne, I do like your suggestion to cut the middle rough to allow a roll to the lower fairway, and would love to watch the union-labor them attempt to mow the 20-25 foot hill.

CHC1948 might have hit upon the true reason for this quirky finish to a course with so many strong holes:

"The topography of the 18th does suggest that there were not to many other options for the eighteenth hole."

I have read that The Course at Yale cost $450,000 in 1924-26 $ to construct.  (Anyone able to translate/equivalate that amount into 2004 $?).  Given the topography of the site, I suspect that a good chunk of the $ were invested in dynamite and tree clearing.  While I don't know about the possibility of a green relocation on 18, I do wonder if Raynor/Steam Shovel Banks investigated the line back to the clubhouse location that would have run through the maintainance shed area.  I am not saying that they would have found a more playable hole in this routing, but I am interested if there is any information that suggests an investigation of this line (Or other options), and the reasons that they discarded it in favor of the finished 18th as we play it today.  

The 18th hole only fits into the character of the course when the blind 2nd shots at #3 and #12 are take into account.

As a point of information, I have played this hole over 50 times, and have trashed a good medal card at least 40% of the time on 18.  From a mental standpoint, the test of TC@Y's first 17 holes forces one to stay in the present, so the fear and loathing of 18 only begins on the walk from the 17th green to the 18th tee.  Yet, I have learned something from this hole more than any other on the course from most of my rounds, so that I can appreciate the hole's nuances in addition to one's well played shot(s).  The biggest lesson that the 18th at Yale has taught me is to "Keep swinging" because anything can, and will happen on this hole - especially in match play.

A final thought.  Since Raynor/CBM transposed so many of their famous holes onto this landscape (#4 Road/#5 Short/#9 Biaritz/#12 Alps/#13 Redan), why didn't they or anyone else incorporate an 18th at Yale elsewhere?

Any other polished posters have any remarks on this unique hole?

KLP

 

[JamesK]

Some very good thoughts about Yale's #18 are contained above. Having played this hole for 40 years now, I can't really say whether I like the hole or not. I think, however, that one should recognize it as a great test of shotmaking. Given that Macdonald and Raynor had 850 acres with which to work, I would discount the theory that they just needed to get the golfer back to the clubhouse. While the tee shot, as noted before, requires relative precision in terms of distance (the landing area is actually fairly wide), it is the second shot that usually makes or breaks the hole for me. While some seem to feel that the fescue hillside is unfair, I am not of that opinion. A decent midiron to the upper fairway will give most players a requisite view of the green. It is in the reach for more distance on this shot that most scores on #18 are ruined. As was noted, the huge green can easily produce a three-putt (Kenneth Fahey of URI lost out on being co-medalist with Bill Haas at the NCAA Regional in May because of this). This is due not just to its size but also to its subtle undulations. I have had perfectly weighted putts wander 8-10 feet right or left of the hole on occasion. As for how it leaves one feeling, I rather think that most golfers would admit that there would be a direct relationship to their performance on that particular day. While there is no doubt that #18 can be a wicked, punishing experience, my vote is for Great.

[Patrick_Mucci]

James,

I suspect that if the 18th at Yale was maintained ala TEPaul's maintainance meld, that we might elevate it in our evaluations.

[Gerry B]

I really like it but it took 3 times to "get it" - I can see how others do not enjoy it  -including the rest of my foursome last month. It does severely penalize mistakes and can ruin an otherwise good round. Blind target shots are not for everyone.

IMHO it is still much superior to the other Par 5 #16 and does follow a tremendous par 4 - #17 - so I think it makes for a strong finish on a great golf course

[michael j fay]

I've played Yale at least a dozen times and on each occasion I have had to stop and try to remember where and how to hit the second shot on the eighteenth hole. From the lower fairway there is no guide post for aiming a second shot. I've always thought it was really a hit and hope.

The green is magnificent. It is huge and requires a brave and steady stroke. Any putt struck without authority will tend to wander off into the netherworld.

Frankly, I think it is at best a mediocre hole especially in comparison to some of the marvelous holes on the course. My personal favorites are # 1, #2, #8, #9, #10 and # 17. The # 13 hole is by far my favorite par 3 in Connecticut and I fell it is all world.

Yale has suffered from rotten maintenence over the years, but I am told that this year has signalled a complete turnabout. I intend to investigate sometime soon.

[Chris Pike]

Wayne,

My guess is that the absence of funds and habit are responsible for the seperating terrain to grow as thick dense rough.

If the dividing area was closely mown, or light rough, I think you'd have a unique and good finishing hole.

I played Yale a couple of weeks ago, and the separating terrain was mowed down.  However, it was still long enough to hold a ball up in.  I, too, would like to see this area mowed like light rough...enough to not hold the ball up, but also not shaved as to release the ball across the right fairway.  Strategically, if you fail to lay up on the left fairway and your ball was to release down to the right, the penalty of a blind shot to the green should be penalty enough.  After all, hitting a straight layup shot down the middle shouldn't be penalized with an unplayable lie.  Of course, succeeding in laying up at the top of the hill on the left is rewarded with a great approach view to the green.

By the way...the conditions at Yale were superb when I played there a couple of weeks ago.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

How can anybody say that # 18 pales in comparison with the other holes after they've just played # 16 ?

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Interesting discussion about the hole I nominated on George Pazin's "Tilt of the green" thread.

[Colin Sheehan]

Interesting irony that this topic began in 2004, the year that Scott Ramsay was hired as the keeper of the green. The recent drainage work on top of tremendous fairway expansion has restored this hole into one of the greats on the planet. As I say to people when we play it, you can play this hole 500 times and never play it the same way twice. It is the ultimate option hole, with a "bottle" option on the second shot. If played correctly, you can hit two reasonable shots that leave a 110 yard shot from the flat. Or you could expect to reasonably get to the high fairway in two, which leaves 180-yard downhill shot that plays 155. Anyone who hates the 18th hoel at Yale as it now plays shouldn't be alllowed on the course.

[Tim Martin]

#18 "Odyssey" is a great finisher on a course that is full of great holes. It`s intended character has been restored by Scott Ramsay a little at a time over the last 6 years with drainage, tree clearing and the reclamation of the lower fairway. As fun as the third shot is from the upper fairway, a left shaped blind shot behind the hill from the lower fairway is equally rewarding if you should find the green. Anyone who has played it knows that a supreme challenge remains on the huge putting surface and that a par is usually gold in match play. Epic may be the correct adjective to describe this hole.

[Tom Dunne]

Not only is it a great hole, there is truly NOTHING else like it in the world of golf. For all the talk about Macdonald/Raynor templates, their courses are also loaded with terrific one-offs, and this is one of them. I like to say that you don't play the 18th at Yale, it plays you. The landforms one deals with on the first and second shots are just that big and bruising--based on the lie one draws or how the ball has kicked off the side of the mountain, the golfer must reevaluate his options after each of the first three shots.. As Colin says, you'll never play it exactly the same way twice.  Michael Fay's old comment about putts "wandering off into the netherworld"  on that enormous green is really well-put, too.

[Patrick Kiser]

I was impressed as well.  I've never seen anything like it.  I did not prep for my round at Yale and so when I got to the 18th ... utter shock is what it was.

I'm curious to know how well it plays when you go the low route to the right.  Is the fairway wide enough now or Scott still expanding that?  How does that option play and how often do players give that a go?

[Ronald Montesano]

Rather than Mike Strantz channeling CBM, I think it worked the other way around on this hole. I played Yale for the first time today and, get this, TOOK NO PICTURES! First time in forever that I was not burdened by the camera. Probably explains the three-double bogey 78 I shot...I'll take that score most days, regardless of how I get there.

Here's my journey on 18...Tugged a drive to the left...Hit a great three wood but undervalued the amount of rise and got caught by some of the hay that Mucci and Paul mentioned back in 2004. Ultimately realized I should have hit hybrid for my second and ultimately made 7 on the hole. Is 18 a great hole? Who cares? Would I play it again and again and again and never get bored? i Sin duda !

[Tim Martin]

Rather than Mike Strantz channeling CBM, I think it worked the other way around on this hole. I played Yale for the first time today and, get this, TOOK NO PICTURES! First time in forever that I was not burdened by the camera. Probably explains the three-double bogey 78 I shot...I'll take that score most days, regardless of how I get there.

Here's my journey on 18...Tugged a drive to the left...Hit a great three wood but undervalued the amount of rise and got caught by some of the hay that Mucci and Paul mentioned back in 2004. Ultimately realized I should have hit hybrid for my second and ultimately made 7 on the hole. Is 18 a great hole? Who cares? Would I play it again and again and again and never get bored? i Sin duda !

Unique, compelling, exhilarating, maddening, delightful, torturous, extreme, penal, wonderful all describe the finisher at Yale. I love everything about the hole as it puts an exclamation point on one of golf`s greats.

[Tim Gavrich]

I think 18 at Yale is a great bellwether for determining whether or not a given golfer is open-minded and worth listening to about golf course architecture.  I adore the hole.

[Rory Connaughton]

A wonderful hole. Cresting the hill and looking down to the green elicits joy. Its that kind of finish.
I would like it even better if the second slope (after the initial carry) was not covered in fescue.
How bout it Tim? :-)

[Joe Bausch]

A wonderful hole. Cresting the hill and looking down to the green elicits joy. Its that kind of finish.
I would like it even better if the second slope (after the initial carry) was not covered in fescue.
How bout it Tim? :-)

I hit one there too. 

[Tim Martin]

Both Rory and Joe B. hit what would have been a 5 star drive on just about any other par 5. On different days Rory had his good friend Paul Z. to blame and Joe B. attributed his misfortune to a wedding in the Pocono`s the day prior and a lack of quality REM sleep. Everything from bad luck to alien intervention has been blamed for the numbers that find their way onto the scorecard on # 18. True to form both of these gentlemen handled their fate with the utmost of grace.