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Garland Bayley

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #75 on: August 17, 2010, 09:54:38 AM »
good golf architecture <> good pro golf event

I guess this is the definitive statement that ANGC is and always has been a goat track.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Adam Clayman

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #76 on: August 17, 2010, 09:55:43 AM »
The rule states a bunker is a prepared area. Once that area is no longer prepared, why is it still a bunker?

I vote for no change and feel that Pete's laughing at all this because it points out just how far away from a sport golf has gone.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jason Connor

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #77 on: August 17, 2010, 10:13:30 AM »
I never understood why the rule isn't "You can ground your club anywhere, but you can't improve your lie".  This would stop from pulling sand away from behind your ball.

Likewise, I can't lay my cap at the crest of a hill if I have a blind shot.  But I can draw a line in a waste bunker. Change that.

« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 01:32:31 PM by Jason Connor »
We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

Brent Hutto

Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #78 on: August 17, 2010, 10:16:06 AM »
I do wish people would quit saying "waste bunker" in discussions pertaining to the Rules of Golf. Unless someone can point out the spot in the Rules where that term appears.

rboyce

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #79 on: August 17, 2010, 10:17:24 AM »

I guess this is the definitive statement that ANGC is and always has been a goat track.


I'll be more clear for you. What I posted is that good architecture is not always equal to a good pro tournament setting. What you illogically induced was that good architecture is never and has never allowed for a good pro tournament setting.

The point is, good architecture does not automatically create a good environment for a pro tournament. A lot more is required.

Also, a buffet is a food bar with sneeze guards. A Buffett is the best value investor out there.

Phil McDade

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #80 on: August 17, 2010, 10:51:31 AM »
OK, we need a straw poll within a straw poll:

-- How many who have answered Mr. Doak's query have walked or played WStraits?

-- How many who posted their answers have walked or played WStraits during a PGA championship held there? Show of hands, please.

Without having been there personally, I think it's hard for folks -- based on photos and TV images -- to imagine the scope of this issue, and the subsequent problems that arise with things like rakes, crowds, and delineating playing areas.

Richard Choi

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #81 on: August 17, 2010, 10:57:06 AM »
Phil, then why don't you enlighten us. You don't have to show every nook and cranny. Just point out a spot or two that make it so difficult to delineate playing areas.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 11:10:54 AM by Richard Choi »

jim_lewis

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #82 on: August 17, 2010, 11:14:36 AM »
Someone beat me to it, but I think the best solution is to change the rule that says you can't ground your club in a bunker. I see no purpose for the rule, since I see no advantage gained by grounding your club. Eliminate the rule and all of the discussion about bunker versus waste become moot.

While you are at it, drop the rule that requires the pin to be removed when putting. There is no agreement that leaving the pin in creates an advantage. It just slow down play.

Two useless rules that cause more problems than they are worth.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Phil McDade

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #83 on: August 17, 2010, 11:18:07 AM »
Phil, then why don't you enlighten us. You don't have to show every nook and cranny. Just point out a spot or two that make is to difficult to delineate playing areas.

Richard:

It's a vexing issue, no question. Sometimes there are difficult problems that arise in which many folks with legitimate and rationale solutions are at odds with others who have similarly rationale and legitimate concerns about those very same solutions (not just in golf or sports, but in other arenas as well).

I'm still not sure what the solution is at WS, but I think the notion of defining sand hazards (bunkers) by whether or not they have rakes in them -- for this particular course -- is sort of silly (something that I think others who have walked and played WS, like Mark Smolens, would probably view the same way). Trying to keep all spectators out of all of the bunkers at WS would mean, as I've said before, having a tournament in which few could see the line of play, or few could attend (again, something that's hard to appreciate without having been there). Treating everything out there as waste areas (more correctly, through the green) has the advantage of being universal and consistent throughout the course, but also gives rise to the kind of situation that others have described that would allow a player to test the sand of a bunker, or that beach next to the green at #5 (where a bunch of players ended up, and probably wished they could've tested the sand, as several bladed shots attested to).

You may think that means this is bad architecture; I'm fine with that. But that's not really Tom's question. He makes a very valid point -- that I quite unsuccessfully  :D tried to raise in some other threads (Kiawah, now relegated to the deep space of the DG) -- that this is not unique to WS, and arises in all sorts of important tournaments (although not as publicized as the PGA). I think John VB's arguments are worth considering, as he's a highly respected rules officials and not one (from reading his blog) to simply say "thus has it been, thus shall it always be."

In the end, absent a rules change, I'd either rule the entire course to be a bunker (as was done at the PGA), or through the green. Both raise other problems, but I think making it consistent throughout the entire course leads to fewer problems than trying to delineate various parts of the course A vs. B.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 11:23:02 AM by Phil McDade »

Richard Choi

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #84 on: August 17, 2010, 11:31:15 AM »
I still have not seen any evidence put forth on why everything outside the ropes should not play as waste hazard, sorry, through the green.

Who cares about testing the lie? With all the people walking all over it during the week, it is going to be packed down. No need to test. And the beach does not come into this discussion as no crowd goes there and there is no rope. Play it as hazard (with boundaries marked) and you won't be able to ground anyway.

Phil McDade

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #85 on: August 17, 2010, 11:47:18 AM »
I still have not seen any evidence put forth on why everything outside the ropes should not play as waste hazard, sorry, through the green.


Richard:

Rather than beat this to death, all I can say is -- having been there myself, trying to distinguish between hazards and waste areas with a rope line, and tens of thousands of spectators, is just not practical. You may not agree, but I think if you'd been to the course, you might see I at least have an argument with that line of thinking.

Richard Choi

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #86 on: August 17, 2010, 11:53:02 AM »
Phil, I am really disappointed to hear that. The whole point of this DG is to learn from each other, especially about places where it is difficult for some of us to get to. If all we said around here is "you have to be there", what is the point of having this site?

I am not asking you to beat it to death. I am GENUINELY interested in learning more about this course through your eyes. If there are problems with ropes and hazards, I would (and I am sure many others here) like to know why.

I would LOVE to visit WS, but with its location and price, I am not sure I ever will. It would be great if you can fill in some details...

George Pazin

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #87 on: August 17, 2010, 12:07:34 PM »
This is something I've been thinking about for a while.  I think that the rules could be changed to remove bunkers and most of the restrictions in water hazard hazards.  It would make the rules simpler and the game more consistent.  

The only things I would leave in the rules are Rule 26 which covers how a player gets out of a water hazard, Rule 28's prohibition on taking an unplayable in a water hazard (use Rule 26 instead), possibly the prohibition on hitting a provisional for a ball in hazard and possibly change the rules on obstructions and GUR to allow relief in the hazard, but the ball must be dropped in the hazard (see the wording for the local rule on Young Trees).  I have to admit I haven't thought through all the implications of all this, but what I have thought about seems reasonable.

Those of you who want to treat the areas outside the ropes as "waste areas", should think about rules such as 12-1 which allow the player to use a rake to search for a ball buried in a bunker and don't penalize the player if he moves it, but prohibit those kinds of actions through the green.  Rules like that are the reason I want to get rid of bunkers or at least clean up that rule.

Tom, I know you lobbied the USGA to make all sandy areas at Pacific Dunes through the green for the Curtis Cup.  I like that idea.  It doesn't seem right to have half and half.  We had that at the US Mid-Am in 2004 at Sea Island.  We told the players if it was raked it was a bunker, if it wasn't it was through the green.  Again, two players balls could end up inches from each other in the same kind of soil and have very different rights on what each could do.


Richard, I didn't know if you had seen this. (I added red to the part where John addresses outside the ropes situations.)

Sean brought up the reason I am not necessarily in favor of changing the rule in the manner John suggests (but I could be persuaded with further explanation). If everything is through the green, won't there be problems with jokers taking a half dozen practice swings in bunkers and leaving the course a mess?

It seems as thought there have been plenty of occasions in the past where sandy areas have been declared through the green, so I can't say I agree with Phil's point. Would I change my mind if I saw it first hand? Maybe. But I doubt it. :)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 12:51:44 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Freeman

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #88 on: August 17, 2010, 12:33:52 PM »
neither Tom...Dustin messed up, period

I would agree with this.  Rules are rules.  Dustin Johnson should have taken more time to understand exactly what was going on with and around his golf ball, especially under those circumstances.  And seeing that the PGA made it very clear that all sand traps would be played as such, I see no reason to fault the rule or the architecture.  I was rooting for DJ, but he screwed up, plain and simple.

And any rule dealing with galleries and ropes would only apply to tournament golf, which may pose a problem for the ruling bodies...
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Bill Shamleffer

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #89 on: August 17, 2010, 12:35:13 PM »
http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2010/8/17/why-do-we-have-bunkers-at-all.html

"Why do we have bunkers at all?"
Reader David Foster brings up the next logical question in the post Dustin Johnson club grounding debate: "Why do we have bunkers at all? Let's get rid of them all together."

Not fill them in mind you, he says, but "remove the definition and every other mention of them from the rules.  They (physically) can remain and we will just play them as through the green."

Naturally, I'm for this and anything else that makes the rules of golf a little less ridiculous.

So what would change? David lays out the case:

1. You could ground your club in the area formerly known as a bunker. Even practice swings. Lots of em.  And no, Bobby Jones would not rise out of his grave and tell us we were all cheating. Yes, you would be able to test the surface and change your shot selection accordingly, just as we do in the rough and the fairway. No one complains if you take 10 practice swings in the fairway to test the firmness or lack thereof of the turf.

But wouldn't this leaded to a widespread "testing the surface" debate?

You would not be able to smash your club down behind the ball to improve the lie, because that would be improving your lie, just as it would be in the rough or fairway. In long rough, good players don't press their club down into the grass because they are afraid of either the ball moving, or being accused of trying to improve the lie.

The same would hold in the sand.  If the sand was hard packed you could set your club down without fear, but in soft sand would be more careful, just like in the fairway or rough. Judgment and skill would continue to be important.

2. No more "digging in" in the sand to build a stance. And don't give me the "moving your feet back and forth is not building a stance" line. If you can't do it in the fairway, you can't do it in the sand.

3. No more rules officials standing around trying to figure out what is or is not a bunker, or spillover, or attempting to define the margin of the hazard. Guys playing in their regular Saturday game would be able to apply the rule as effectively as if they had their own personal rules official.

They used to call this: PLAY IT AS IT LIES!

4. The embedded ball rule could remain the same. As long as you only allow a drop for balls embedded in the "closely mown area" nothing would change in regard to balls plugged in sand.

5. Casual water situations in the sand would be easier to deal with. Just take the closest relief, regardless if in the sand or not.  Sometimes dropping out of the sand would be an advantage, other times it would not.

6. The architectural significance or the strategic implementation of sand would not be diminished, as players would still prefer to be in the fairway. And by the way, rake it or don't rake it, I don't care. Maybe some clubs would choose to rake their sand and others would not.

The question is, would courses ramp up their bunker maintenance even more if bunkers are played through the green, or would the opposite effect occur? Is much of the capital poured into bunkers done so because golfers can't ground their clubs and therefore expect perfection to compensate for the inability to place their club down?

Either way, David concludes...

It makes the rules easier to understand, easier to follow and enforce, and easier to explain to new golfers. It does not reduce the importance of skill, in fact, it makes skill more important. You know how I know that it could be accepted? I have never heard anyone say that the 91 Ryder Cup at Kiawah was not a legitimate tournament or the outcome was adversely affected by players grounding their clubs. No one even remembers that element of the tournament. If I remember correctly, it was Larry Startzel that was the head rules official that week. I wonder what he would say about this?

Okay, why do we need "bunkers" at all?
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Michael Dugger

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #90 on: August 17, 2010, 12:44:52 PM »
I think this is a difficult situation and no one solution is really going to solve the problem.

What I do know is this incident stinks. 

I harken back to Tiger Woods and the tournament at Firestone about five or so years ago.

Like Dustin Johnson, he too was extremely wayward with some shots and found himself behind scoreboards and bleachers.

And got a free drop in the clear a handful of times!!! 

Rules are rules, but we have to question some of them when the intent might be just, but the outcome is far from...
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Phil McDade

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #91 on: August 17, 2010, 12:47:23 PM »
Richard:

Let me put it this way, in another context. I spent three years studying Latin in high school, which was as much a lesson in history as it was on dead languages. Our teacher stressed in particular the classics of art and literature, and said if we ever had the chance to see the statue of David in person, we should do so. Five years later, I did, and he was right -- in person, it's simply breathtaking, perfection in art. There is absolutely no way to appreciate that piece of sculpture, without being there in person.

Or, as two guys from Southie once wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM-gZintWDc

Here's what I can tell you about WS that, to me, makes the idea of differentiating between bunkers and waste areas via a rope line impractical:

-- The place is littered with bunkers, thousands of them. They are not organized, in any manner, similar to what you might find at a traditional American course. They are haphazardly placed throughout the course. A rope line is a fairly linear thing; there is very little of WS that is in any way linear. Rope lines would inevitably go through bunkers.

-- Many (most?) of the bunkers are oddly configured, and some tend to "bleed into" the surrounds, such as the fescue grass growing all over the non-specific (fairways, greens, chipping areas, first cut of rough) areas of the course.

-- Dye built the course with obvious spectator mounding, hills, ridges and knolls near many of the holes; many of these spectator areas  contain bunkers.

-- The PGA makes money off this tournament; it does so through a variety of ways, but one way it does is to ask tens of thousands of people to pay money to come watch it. Similar to virtually every other tournament I've ever seen in person or on TV, meet officials allow fans to stand quite close, easily within the line of play of even modestly wayward shots, to the course action. This, of course, is exacerbated -- as it is in nearly every tournament, and moreso in one which the outcome is decided on the final hole by the final twosome -- as the tournament nears its conclusion. (I'm pretty sure no one at WS was out on the 13th green when Johnson hit his approach shot on 18).

-- Several of the walking paths built by Dye, and which serve as thoroughfares for fans to move around the course, are built below the line of viewing for any given hole; Dye did a solid job, in my view, of hiding these paths, so they don't interfere with the sightlines of the course, but they make for poor viewing of most of the holes there.

-- It is inevitable that at a PGA held at WS, fans will walk in these bunkers. To prohibit this (via rope line restrictions that kept spectators out of all bunkers) would mean either: a) greatly reducing -- by a factor of...alot -- the number of fans attending the championship, or b) greatly reduce the number of places fans could watch the tournament (which, assuming fans are rationale economic creatures, would greatly reduce their attendance, leading to scenario A.)

-- Is a bunker trampled by spectators all that different than spectator stands adjacent to the 18th at Carnoustie that prevented Van de Velde's ball from flying where it should have on his second shot there in the '99 Open Championship. Both (the stands, and a bunker so trampled it didn't resemble a bunker to the player) are arguably artificial impediments placed near play that determined, in some way, the outcome of a championship. Should future championships not have spectator seating near the line of play?

As an aside, I'm quite interested to see how this will play out at Chambers Bay at the upcoming Amateur. I don't know how they've determined various areas of that course, and maybe it's quite dissimilar to WS. But I'll defer to your judgement and first-hand knowledge if problems arise. ;D

Jim Franklin

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #92 on: August 17, 2010, 12:50:02 PM »
Decide where they are putting the ropes for spectators (assuming it is a PGA event where they do such a thing) and have the bunkers inside the ropes play as hazards and the sand outside the ropes play through the green.

This. Because in no way should spectators be walking through a bunker during play. It can be a bunker when I play because I would only have half the gallery watching me ;D.
Mr Hurricane

Dwight Cramer

Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #93 on: August 17, 2010, 01:14:33 PM »
Poll reply:  Neither

To be overly simple, golf courses tend to fall into either the 'made' category, or the 'found' category (I admit it's not quite that polar).  Links land is the original, 'found' golfing.  Whistling Straights is truly a 'made' golf course (old quarry, all that imported sand, etc.)  Here's where it gets interesting, Whistling Straights is an attempt to 'make' a links land golfing experience--it is made, passing for found.  So, Pete Dye has thrown a hermaphrodite.   All those bunkers (played as bunkers) standing in for the missing sandy waste (played through the green) are a bit like the hermaphrodite's  beard and deep voice.  Deal with the situation through local rules, conditions of competition and tournament administration.  I won't second guess, but there certainly should be some soul searching going on this week among those who were involved in all that.

I have a personal preference for the 'found' courses, and like their natural, less defined bunkering.  But lots of people live in places where, if they want to golf they have to make a place to play.  Once started down that road, maybe precision and sharp edges are the way to go.  Or maybe not.  But the rules need to be broad enough to encompass it all.

Brent Hutto

Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #94 on: August 17, 2010, 01:17:46 PM »
Dwight Cramer,

That's a mighty fine first post, Newbie!

Welcome to the forum.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #95 on: August 17, 2010, 01:46:47 PM »
I see no purpose for the rule, since I see no advantage gained by grounding your club.

Jim, I think it's impossible to ground your club in a bunker without improving your lie. That's where I think Stewart Cink violated the rules when he removed those loose impediments. He clearly improved his lie by removing the debris behind his ball.

So, if all that is true, it has a purpose.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Phil McDade

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #96 on: August 17, 2010, 01:48:49 PM »
I see no purpose for the rule, since I see no advantage gained by grounding your club.

Jim, I think it's impossible to ground your club in a bunker without improving your lie. That's where I think Stewart Cink violated the rules when he removed those loose impediments. He clearly improved his lie by removing the debris behind his ball.

So, if all that is true, it has a purpose.

Adam:
Wasn't Cink playing out of a waste (through the green) bunker, under local rules?

William_G

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #97 on: August 17, 2010, 02:33:05 PM »
Dwight! Great post! 8)
It's all about the golf!

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #98 on: August 17, 2010, 02:49:49 PM »
I understand the spectator portion of this discussion...BUT..there does not seem to be a problem at Pine Valley in distinguishing between bunkers and waste areas!!

Dave McCollum

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Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #99 on: August 17, 2010, 03:43:33 PM »
I haven’t read all of the long-winded discussion.  I vote change the rule—it’s OK to ground the club anywhere.   I don’t like the idea of folks taking practice swings  and throwing more sand out on the greens, but most wouldn’t do that before a shot.  I agree with the crowd that golf has too many silly rules.  Play it as it lies, play the course as you find it, and get freaking going works for me.

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