News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


JohnV

Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2010, 11:18:01 PM »
This is something I've been thinking about for a while.  I think that the rules could be changed to remove bunkers and most of the restrictions in water hazard hazards.  It would make the rules simpler and the game more consistent.  

The only things I would leave in the rules are Rule 26 which covers how a player gets out of a water hazard, Rule 28's prohibition on taking an unplayable in a water hazard (use Rule 26 instead), possibly the prohibition on hitting a provisional for a ball in hazard and possibly change the rules on obstructions and GUR to allow relief in the hazard, but the ball must be dropped in the hazard (see the wording for the local rule on Young Trees).  I have to admit I haven't thought through all the implications of all this, but what I have thought about seems reasonable.

Those of you who want to treat the areas outside the ropes as "waste areas", should think about rules such as 12-1 which allow the player to use a rake to search for a ball buried in a bunker and don't penalize the player if he moves it, but prohibit those kinds of actions through the green.  Rules like that are the reason I want to get rid of bunkers or at least clean up that rule.

Tom, I know you lobbied the USGA to make all sandy areas at Pacific Dunes through the green for the Curtis Cup.  I like that idea.  It doesn't seem right to have half and half.  We had that at the US Mid-Am in 2004 at Sea Island.  We told the players if it was raked it was a bunker, if it wasn't it was through the green.  Again, two players balls could end up inches from each other in the same kind of soil and have very different rights on what each could do.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2010, 11:22:29 PM »
Philip, you will not have to wait that long. There are waste areas galore at Chambers Bay (next week at US Am) and much of it is very soft sand and crowd will be walking through them so there will be plenty of footprints. I kind of like that part as I think if you miss it into that area, you should pay the penalty and an impossible lie every now and then should serve as a proper motivation.

JVB, very good point about the rake, but most of these waste areas do not have any rake so that should be avoidable (perhaps another clarification to the players are in order :) )
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 11:25:07 PM by Richard Choi »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2010, 11:23:24 PM »
John:

I'm betting that you'll get nowhere with your suggestion ... because of "tradition" ... but I'm rooting for you to get the Rule changed.

I know that Mr. Dye used to think the hazards he was building should be "through the green" ... he's not exactly politically correct, or trainable, so I wonder where he changed his mind on that?


Steve S:

I don't know how many "bunkers" there are at Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal, and I don't really want to know.  To me, those courses were ALL SAND to start with, and just because I don't grass a piece of them doesn't make it a bunker.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2010, 11:24:06 PM »
Lose the rakes and lose the rule.  Speeds up play and keeps 'em a hazard.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2010, 11:24:32 PM »
Could the other option be that every bunker and non water hazard be considered a "waste" bunker all the time, which would allow for the grounding of the club. Then it could be a local rule as to if there are rakes in the bunkers or not?

Just like Tobacco Road; local rule makes all sand waste area where grounding club is legal.

Or, just make everything a sand trap.

BUT, he could have asked for a ruling......
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2010, 11:38:15 PM »
And Atlas shrugged...and wept, as the folly went on and on and on...
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2010, 11:38:38 PM »
Try to hold the number of bunkers to 100 or so. Bunkers should be within 20 yards of the fairway. Any shot further off line should be punished, not "saved" by a bunker. I suppose that means don't hire Pete Dye, who apparently is paid by the number of bunkers he can find a spot for.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2010, 11:40:07 PM »
Amidst the rubble of the fallout from the 72nd hole at the PGA Championship, I've seen several people opine that the design of the course was flawed because it created such a Rules flap.  But, if the PGA of America had incorporated the same local rule, this incident COULD have happened at Kiawah, Pacific Dunes, Friars Head, Ballyneal, Chambers Bay, Old Macdonald, or many other modern courses which are highly regarded.  The only difference at Whistling Straits is the number of such areas, and the fact that all the sand was imported.

So ... either we architects are going to have to stop trying to do such a good job of making sandy hazards look natural, or the governing bodies are going to have to change the Rules.

Which should it be?  I'd like to know, because I'm starting a new course on sand this week.

If it's sand it's a hazard.
Why on earth would a shot into an unraked sandy area,50 yards off line be considered anything but a hazard?
Why would a player be allowed to ground his club in sand in an area so far out of play it's not raked and outside the ropes, yet not be allowed to ground it in those perfectlly raked consistent sand bunkers 10 yards from the pin.
Don't you guys have it backwards?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jason Connor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2010, 11:43:39 PM »
So ... either we architects are going to have to stop trying to do such a good job of making sandy hazards look natural, or the governing bodies are going to have to change the Rules.

I'd never claim that Mr Dye (who has many courses I enjoy) made his sandy hazards at WS "look natural."  

I'm just curious: If wind and weather or a sheep digging a hole for a bed caused a grass-free depression can I ground my club if my ball is in it?  I'm pretty certain that I may.

A big part of the problem is the rule in play yesterday: "All areas of the course that were designed and built as sand bunkers will be played as bunkers (hazards)" asks the player to discern what was designed and built from what arrived via the hand of God, nature, or animals.  It was easier at WS because all sand was "built".  But on truly sandy soil, how can a player do this?  Especially if the architect can in fact make his work look natural?

I think the rake idea is simple -- and how we play at my club -- but I appreciate the issues with rakes that go missing, get moved, etc.  Especially if it's a bunker that is in the gallery area.





We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2010, 11:55:49 PM »
Did anyone else get penalized for this infraction in the entire tournament?  I don't think the local rule is confusing, the area clearly looks like a bunker and my first thought when seeing him ground his club was that he just cost himself the tournament (or they had a really goofy local rule).

I also think the PGA's local rule made sense.  Anyone remember Stewart Cink at Harbour town?  He essentially teed up his ball on 16 consistent with the rules and won the tournament.  That was a greater injustice than what happened on Sunday.

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2010, 12:10:41 AM »
There is a famous golfer who never grounded his club.
"chief sherpa"

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2010, 01:00:59 AM »
Peter, that was Nicklaus ... but only on the green, and famously. Did he not ground his club on the fairway, either.

Jason, that was the only penalty under this rule this year. In 2004, two players were penalized. In the third round, Stuart Appleby was slapped with a four-stroke penalty for a similar, though more complicated, violation. And an Illinois PGA Section pro, Roy Biancalana, was hit with a two-stroke penalty. (Appleby, incidentally, finished five strokes out of the playoff in 2004.)

I was there for that one, arriving on Tuesday, as the PGA of America was still decided whether or not to play bunkers outside the ropes as bunkers, or as through the green. Word was, they first decided to do the latter, play outside as through the green, and then went to the "all bunkers are bunkers" ruling that prevailed again this time. And next time?

Here's how the Wisconsin State Journal reported Appleby's situation at the time:

Stuart Appleby didn't read the rules and it cost him a 4-stroke penalty and a quadruple-bogey 9 on the 16th hole.

Thinking the bunkers beyond the gallery ropes were playing like waste areas as originally planned by the PGA of America, Appleby removed a piece of dead grass and grounded his club in violation of Rule 13.4C to incur a pair of 2-stroke penalties. The mistakes followed three straight birdies -- and four in five holes -- that got him to 5-under.

"I cannot think of another course in the world where spectators are allowed to walk through the bunkers," Appleby said. "(But) I basically could have saved four strokes by reading a piece of paper inside the locker room."
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2010, 01:05:48 AM »
Neither. Dustin screwed up. 1200/18=67
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2010, 01:34:49 AM »
Too often, black and white are expected to be the only answers.  IMO
Dustin basically admitted to not reading the local rule sheet, and thereby inherits all responsibility.
The tournament organizers, can create any local rule, even stupid ones, and it is a player's responsibility to check them.
It seems the PGA tried to take an easy way out by making a blanket rule, especially given the nature of the course and the
crowds changing the nature of the hazards.  Still, an official was on hand to ask.
The crowd management was pitiful.  Overall, the PGA looks a bit silly here from students/members I have talked with. 
I cannot believe how many guys said players don't look at local rule sheets.  I chew my students ass out for that >:(
So, in a nutshell, sadly, this was Dustin's responsibility.  He handled it pretty well, and hopefully this isn't a career torpedo :(
The PGA falls a little further behind the other majors as people think what happened was absurd.
And the biggie to me, dos this mean sanded divots are now hazards???

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2010, 01:44:44 AM »
Hi Tom,

I'm not sure that our opinions could, would or will carry significant weight, but it's decent of you to solicit them, even for a fun board post.  Most of us live in the fantasy world of little drawings, ardent research and the firing of emotional synapses when we play a great hole or great course or observe a great hole in a non-golf course property..."I would like to be the man to provide the world this kind of thing"  You operate in the real world, with real pieces of property, real clients and real living commerce - so again, what I would prefer may not be at all practical.

As I considered the original question in your thread-opener, I kept stopping on the phrase from near the end

"Either we architects are going to have to stop trying to do such a good job of making sandy hazards look natural..."

It's not perfectly framed by your question, but I do think the meat of the GCA issue is in there, to the extent that what I - as one individual with an abiding interest in golf and its architectural developments - object to is the subtle validation of the visual as equal to the virtue of the playing field itself.

Yesterday in one of the many threads catalyzed by the PGA finish, i mentioned how bullsh** everyone would feel if Jerry Jones low-hanging scoreboard ever stopped a punt - and altered the exhibition and results of play - in a game.  I can only surmise the competing players who had an entire season's work and goals thwarted by a negative outcome.  I snickered in that post - 2 billion dollars of Xanadu and they can't get the height of the scoreboard right?

Back to thinking about visuals in golf, specifically making sandy hazards look so good...I offer the opinion that if an architect cannot deploy a layout where the preponderance of rules-defined "hazards" (with their attendant penalty for forbidden conduct in and around them) are also not a part of natural beauty, he or she is either not bringing their best work to bear or the property is not suited for a first rate course.

This is by the way, fine, with me - we need second, third and fourth rate courses, architects need to eat and these enterprises employ and delight a great many people - all very good stuff.

But ideally for me - if a hazard is designed, its designed for playing strategy first and visual properties second.  Aesthetic beauty is not designed, it is elicited.  it seems to me that when architecture tries hard to design aesthetic, the best results come off as faux and patina.

I say this because an important element of visual aesthetics is oftentimes their incongruity...why did CBM-Raynor-Banks, in all their "Road" hole configurations never put a blind wall or the clubhouse looming in front of the tee or put a wide cart path immediately by the hole or put a stone wall beyond that path or order that a town with the dimensions of St. Andrews shoppes and spires be placed in the further background?

I think they did not because these are things that are called badnesses by most of the golfing world...a blind tee shot over railway sheds? a freakin' Road steps from the green...you'd be laughed out of the business to suggest same today and the liability lawyers would make you tear your hair out.  Maybe they are or maybe they are not badnesses - but what appealed to CBM-Raynor-Banks and those of us with an fascination for the original is the damn strategy of it...a courageous leap of faith drive to set up the best angle attack to an oblique green pinched by two wild hazards...a stringent four that is solvable with thoughtful, sound play.

That's the reason the Road template endures and can withstand not having the blind sheds, the road and the wall in most of its copies, and substitute a bunker.

So my answer rounds down to maybe you shouldn't try so hard to make great looking hazards...if their visual quality subordinates or competes for primacy with strategy, they need more thought or something.

yet...

The rules need examination too, because at their heart - hazards are a change of surface, one of the supreme intrinsic attributes (or tests) of Golf.  From differing lies in fairways, to flat pebble bunkers to traditional sculpted sand pits to differing qualities of rough and greens and approach grasses - Golf is if nothing else a judgement of the surface on which the ball is to be played on, to and from.

Hazards and obstructions are defined by...their "definition" - eg: "This is a bunker, you see? The grass ends here and then it becomes sand and it is a uniform edge all along its boundary. This is a pond, a brook, a lake a bay, an ocean - there's a water's edge.These are the margins of what's included in those bodies of water as they constitute Hazards under the rules - this one is lateral, painted red and this one is regular - painted yellow. These are margins of the water hazard; this is ground under repair and this is a cart path.

Why must their be such ambiguity in Whistling Straits...and if its virtues necessitate such vice, why doesn't the ambiguity resolve in favor of the competitors - all the stuff outside the ropes in just waste, ground your club all you like.  It hardly matters to the execution of the shot and the change of surface test - we, the PGA cannot control these areas and so its unfair to police them with further sanction than their out of play position and obviously random change of surfaces.  Good luck to you up there...or there....or there... or there...

I'm a dilettante historian at best, but I assume the reason grounding the club in a sand bunker became a no-no is because players had taken to creating a "ledge" or podium behind their ball with such grounding and this was deemed to thwart the intrinsic test, fairly assessing and executing off the alternate surface.  Someone else more knowledgeable than me will probably chime in as to how that was developed, but I can't imagine that the first players just intrinsically said, "Don't touch the ground if you're in sand - it's just wrong."

The salient point for today's question-problem-integration is that if the particular change in surface is ambiguous and rather indistinct from a place called Hazard and usually controlled and well-defined, the are should be granted a liberal deed to be played free of the normal Hazard rules.

Lastly Tom - and thank you again for the solicitation to opine - when you mention a project site being entirely comprised of sandy material, you are designing a course out of what is called Hazard and the bare-bones result is that anything that you don't design is automatically Hazard.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Brett_Morrissy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2010, 04:17:02 AM »
Option 3
Do not change the rule
Do not change your design process

One stupid golfer, one stupid caddy...
Does not change our world, please!

Tom. Keep doing what you are doing.
@theflatsticker

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2010, 04:32:15 AM »
Option 4:

Outside the Ropes == Out of Bounds

Get over it, Johnson wasn't going to win this tournament. He would have blown up completely in the playoff.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Kyle Harris

Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2010, 04:37:11 AM »
The problem with the no rake no bunker rule is that rakes tend to grow legs and move.

Consider a situation where several smaller bunkers are nearer each other and during the course of a normal day's play/maintenance the bunker rakes are moved by players/caddies/greenkeepers into different areas.

Now consider the very frequent occurrence where one of those bunkers ends up without a rake adjacent to it.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2010, 05:03:00 AM »
I agree that there can be no such thing as half and half regardless of ropes etc.  Sandy areas on a course must be all hazards or all through the green.  In theory I would prefer through the green, but in practice for sand around greens especially, I don't like the idea of guys whacking loads of sand onto greens with practice swings AND potentially creating absolutely dreadful lies for those in the rear. Because of this potential maintenance nightmare and the ability to overtly effect the lies of others, I would vote for all sand being hazards regardless of a rake or if it is "prepared".  Plus, the idea of loads of through the green sand will encourage archies to slap sand everywhere and that isn't good for architecture if we want to play clever courses.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 05:28:24 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2010, 05:09:14 AM »
Love this discussion Tom as I was wondering about the implications as well. Keep the rugged/gnarly courses coming. I vote change the rule. The design of WS lent itself to this interpretation and I'm glad to hear that Pete Dye wanted to consider most of the sand as through the green. Be that as it may, as this was a design for championship golf, there in lies the dilemma of a loose end left to the interpretation of all of us. It is unfortunate but interesting discourse on hazards/bunkers, as well as the intrusion of spectators. At Old Mac or Pacific what do you do? We'll see at Chambers Bay very soon, should be interesting! Love the massive grandstands they build every year at The Open Championship. IMHO most of the time I don't ground my club in non-hazards, because I don't want the ball to move without my club hitting it, LOL. Thanks. :)
It's all about the golf!

Scott Coan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2010, 05:12:34 AM »
So ... either we architects are going to have to stop trying to do such a good job of making sandy hazards look natural, or the governing bodies are going to have to change the Rules.

Please continue making the sandy hazards look so natural.

The only rule that needs to be applied is to keep the spectators out of the bunkers.

(Tongue firmly in cheek...)
If there are so many of the silly things because they make such good viewing from up on the blimp, then I can see the need to allow folks to wander into a few.  There may even be some, say on the 18th hole of one major venue, that make excellent viewing platforms.  Feel free to plop your behind down on one of the lips, take your shoes off, and rest your weary toes in the fine imported sand - it makes for an excellent exfoliant.  If you have brought kids to the event feel free to encourage them to build sand castles - golf can be so boring to the little ones!  As soon as a competitors ball comes to rest in one of these bunkers, all spectators are respectfully asked to IMMEDIATELY vacate the entire bunker until the player has played his shot.   There is afterall a golfing competition being conducted.  Once the pesky professional has gone about his business, then fell free to return your spot.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2010, 05:24:46 AM »
I see no need to change either the rules or the architecture.

The PGA decided they were all bunkers. It helpfully passed this information on to the players, many of whom have revealed they chose not to read it.

When Johnson landed in a sand-filled excavation (what are those things called again???) on the final hole of a major he had a rules official or 20 within a few hundred yards of him and had he bothered to ask any of them for a ruling they would have confirmed what had been staring back at him from the locker-room mirrors all week: it's a bunker.


Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2010, 06:02:40 AM »
I don't think it matters whether the sandy area was considered a bunker or not, there is no way to ground a club on sand without raising the possibility that the lie or the intended line of the swing was improved.

Sand is sand, and the concept of 'waste' areas should be purged from player's minds.  ;D

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2010, 06:26:08 AM »
I saw the video of this, and there is a sequence just after he reaches the bunker where he puts the club down on the sand then picks it up and looks around slightly guiltily. I think he has a suspicion this was a bunker, or at least an area where he couldn't ground the club.

Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Straw Poll: Change the Rule, or Change Architecture?
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2010, 07:07:47 AM »
This is an honest question:

Why am I allowed to ground my club no matter how deep the rough, but I am not allowed to ground my club in any hazard?

I am not complaining about the rule.  I will play the rules as they are written.  I am just curious how this particular rule developed.  Under the original rules it was "play the ball as it lies"; no cleaning (even on greens), no preferred lies, no relief from any casual water or ground under repair; but then each of these types of "relief" were created in the Rules of Golf.  So how did "no grounding of the club in any hazard" become a Rule?
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back