[Joe Buckley]

Just wondering what everyone's take is? Do you think its peaked or do you envisage things progressing as they have been doing over the last 10-15years? When I first got into green keeping 7years ago I thought the idea of mowing greens at .125" was crazy and couldn't see how anybody could go any lower. Today though, most of the top courses are mowing at .080", some are as low as .060" and courses are getting approaches stimping quicker than greens of 10years ago (12ft 7inches the quickest approach I've come across). After seeing how adaptive grass can be and working on courses where the membership is willing to pay a premium to be amongst the best I can see room to improve further, but at what cost?

With all the heavy rainfall and 90+ degree days on the East Coast this summer, several of the top golf courses have been hit hard by bacterial and wet wilt with some courses having to close down for the summer (article below).

http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB10001424052748704017904575409411501359450.html

Superintendent now are pushing their turf hard in the quest for firm and fast conditions, but when mother nature doesn't cooperate things can and, as proved above, will turn ugly quick.

[SB]

Certainly the economic stress should limit some of those practices on a wide scale, but many of the leaders in that area are the top clubs that are not under the same type of economic stress as clubs further down the scale. 

Right now the voices for change are primarily from the "brown is the new green" camp which is really about watering and inputs as opposed to some of the things you pointed out.  So, right now, I don't see anything changing that trend at the top clubs.

[Chris Cupit]

Joe,

One thing to consider when discussing mowing heights is that sometimes the new sub .100 heights seem lower as the mowing units are employing a floating head that is not an "apples to apples" comparison to a fixed head mowing height.  Some superintendents estimate that a floating head height of .85 is really pretty close to a fixed head height of .125!

I do not think that the higher end clubs are close to a significant change in maintenance philosophy.  Very low and very high end clubs are able to continue doing what they have been doing.  It's the "middle class" club that must deal with lofty expectations and dramatically falling revenues.  They will be the ones forced to change some practices.

In general I think the typical club member has no desire to accept brown   As long as any club nearby can have green, that will be the standard for most golfers.

[Joe Buckley]

I agree Chris, some courses will never go brown no matter how much the USGA throw the term around. Besides brown is even less sustainable than mowing at short heights, if you go to any of the courses who've pushed their turf to the max for a tournament this year you'll still see the weak, thin, and in some cases bare areas. It's doable for a week for when the big boys come into town, but over a longer period of time you'd lose grass quicker than it could recover.

Although right in what you say, I’ve know golf clubs comparing the fixed and flew mowers on the same green when making the switch dropping the flex down .001 at a time (you'd be amazed at the difference!) until satisfied the new flex mowers are mowing at the same heights.

Anyway, I'm more interest on your opinion on whether the likes of Oakmont, Pine Valley and Oak Hill can take it up a level from where they're already at or if you think we've already gone too far and the article above is the backlash of that?

Kind of on the same subject how much do architects take into account the future maintenance budgets? Do certain design features disappear into the wilderness because the grounds crew can't afford to maintain them?

[Chris Cupit]

Joe, I think that we will continue to push the envelope even farther and this "progress" is not always a bad thing.  Hopefully, turf grass research will continue and help discover and develop more drought tolerant, shade tolerant, disease and pest tolerant grasses.  This will allow the best supers with the budget and manpower to continue to push the envelope.  They may not be able to mow any lower, but they may be able to lean out the greens for longer periods of time with the development of "super grasses".

Equipment may advance to allow consistent, scalp proof mowing at very low heights and with mower widths that will save time and labor expense.  I already see tee boxes and green complexes walk mowed at what were green heights years ago.  Drainage advancements that will allow fairways to shed water faster and allow carts back on the turf sooner will benefit many people.

[jeffwarne]

Joe, I think that we will continue to push the envelope even farther and this "progress" is not always a bad thing.  Hopefully, turf grass research will continue and help discover and develop more drought tolerant, shade tolerant, disease and pest tolerant grasses.  This will allow the best supers with the budget and manpower to continue to push the envelope.  They may not be able to mow any lower, but they may be able to lean out the greens for longer periods of time with the development of "super grasses".

Equipment may advance to allow consistent, scalp proof mowing at very low heights and with mower widths that will save time and labor expense.  I already see tee boxes and green complexes walk mowed at what were green heights years ago.  Drainage advancements that will allow fairways to shed water faster and allow carts back on the turf sooner will benefit many people.

Would golf grow at a faster rate if the grass wasn't cut so short?
I watch players attempt to hit off grass at the heights you reference and consistently fail-wouldn't a bit more grass and grass height make the game more enjoyable for players absolutely unable to strike a golf ball off such short/tight turf?
Courses seem to be maintained for the top 1% of players-seems they ought to be the ones adapting-not the 99%

[Chris Cupit]

Jeff,

I agree with your points.  More grass on the fairway and greens would help the overwhelming majority of players.  The industry tends to look to the best players and the most elite clubs for what standards should be.  I am only saying that the trend will continue and there will always be a push for "newer" and "better".

I don't think you can ever put the toothpaste back in the tube.  h
High end clubs and their clientele are not interested in brown, higher fairways or slower greens.  (Of course, there may be an exception here or there). 

Look at the Oakmont culture of insanely fast greens.  How many of their members really need that type of speed?  They embrace the difficulty and love being beat up.  Unfortunately, I believe, many other high end clubs and memberships aspire to that same ideal even though it isn't "good for them" or good for growing the game or attracting new people.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,

I agree with your points.  More grass on the fairway and greens would help the overwhelming majority of players.  The industry tends to look to the best players and the most elite clubs for what standards should be.  I am only saying that the trend will continue and there will always be a push for "newer" and "better".

I don't think you can ever put the toothpaste back in the tube.  h
High end clubs and their clientele are not interested in brown, higher fairways or slower greens.  (Of course, there may be an exception here or there). 

Look at the Oakmont culture of insanely fast greens.  How many of their members really need that type of speed?  They embrace the difficulty and love being beat up.  Unfortunately, I believe, many other high end clubs and memberships aspire to that same ideal even though it isn't "good for them" or good for growing the game or attracting new people.

Chris,

worse than that they embrace speed and greens that "hold" (which is not hard given the moisture required to keep stressed greens alive)
and the same 99% could use a flier lie in the fairway to get the ball to travel the distance they think they hit it.

[Mike_Young]

Chris mentions how floating heads can be set at a different height than a standard mower and cut the same...same can be said for different manufacturers mowers set at the same height as well as riding mowers vs some walkers....
And yes..there is no putting the toothpaste back in the tube...but we might change toothpaste here in the south   
What amazes me is how directly course maintenance is tied into the height of the different cuts on a golf course....many of the  problems we are seeing this summer were not seen on bentgrass greens here in the south in the late 60's and early 70's.  Why? higher height of cut...but now we spend a lot of money to lower that height....what cost does it bring?
1. Fans
2 bedknives
3. irrigation
4.rolling
5. topdressing
6. more complicated fertilization
7. softspikes
8. higher lofted wedges and higher spinning balls
9. less  quality for more days in many cases
10.  higher priced supts
11.  more supt turnover
12.  some cases on not being able to determine a collar from the green cut...rules violation...

And on and on....
American golf , the game, is being controlled much more by American golf, the business, than our European counterparts on an average basis...BUT with this economy we will get  back there....

 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Chris,

worse than that they embrace speed and greens that "hold" (which is not hard given the moisture required to keep stressed greens alive)
and the same 99% could use a flier lie in the fairway to get the ball to travel the distance they think they hit it.

Jeff,
  When was the last time that you've been to Oakmont? I was there for the Womens Open last month with the Maintenance staff. There is no way that you could hold a bowling ball on those greens. They were so firm, it was like walking on brand news greens. And with the way they water, I will promise you, the average human uses more water taking a shower, than the staff at Oakmont uses per green, each day. With the unique way they water, there is more water ON the handwaterer than the green.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Chris mentions how floating heads can be set at a different height than a standard mower and cut the same...same can be said for different manufacturers mowers set at the same height as well as riding mowers vs some walkers....
And yes..there is no putting the toothpaste back in the tube...but we might change toothpaste here in the south   
What amazes me is how directly course maintenance is tied into the height of the different cuts on a golf course....many of the  problems we are seeing this summer were not seen on bentgrass greens here in the south in the late 60's and early 70's.  Why? higher height of cut...but now we spend a lot of money to lower that height....what cost does it bring?
1. Fans
2 bedknives
3. irrigation
4.rolling
5. topdressing
6. more complicated fertilization
7. softspikes
8. higher lofted wedges and higher spinning balls
9. less  quality for more days in many cases
10.  higher priced supts
11.  more supt turnover
12.  some cases on not being able to determine a collar from the green cut...rules violation...

And on and on....
American golf , the game, is being controlled much more by American golf, the business, than our European counterparts on an average basis...BUT with this economy we will get  back there....

 

Mike,
   I think some of the problems that are being faced have A LOT more to do than just height of cut. The newer grasses haven’t been around nearly as long as the grasses of the 60s and 70s, therefore we really know less about them and they are less hardy. Plus, who really cared is grasses had pythium 30-40 years ago? It was accepted, and had very little cures.
  Sometimes, I am surprised by some of your remarks, because you are part of the industry as well and the better things are, the better it is for everyone. Don’t forget, this push over the last 25 years has allowed for higher paid Superintendents, but it has also allowed for higher paid architects. Golf course condition has certainly gotten better, even since I was in school, but we are more educated than before and much of what has happened this summer is directly on mother nature. The Superintendents in the transition zone are usually well prepared for the summer months-much of what is happening is out of their control.
  There will always be turnover-it’s a flooded marker, and the stress and time pull people away from family and other things that they find important.

[Mike_Young]

Chris mentions how floating heads can be set at a different height than a standard mower and cut the same...same can be said for different manufacturers mowers set at the same height as well as riding mowers vs some walkers....
And yes..there is no putting the toothpaste back in the tube...but we might change toothpaste here in the south   
What amazes me is how directly course maintenance is tied into the height of the different cuts on a golf course....many of the  problems we are seeing this summer were not seen on bentgrass greens here in the south in the late 60's and early 70's.  Why? higher height of cut...but now we spend a lot of money to lower that height....what cost does it bring?
1. Fans
2 bedknives
3. irrigation
4.rolling
5. topdressing
6. more complicated fertilization
7. softspikes
8. higher lofted wedges and higher spinning balls
9. less  quality for more days in many cases
10.  higher priced supts
11.  more supt turnover
12.  some cases on not being able to determine a collar from the green cut...rules violation...

And on and on....
American golf , the game, is being controlled much more by American golf, the business, than our European counterparts on an average basis...BUT with this economy we will get  back there....

 

Mike,

  Sometimes, I am surprised by some of your remarks, because you are part of the industry as well and the better things are, the better it is for everyone. Don’t forget, this push over the last 25 years has allowed for higher paid Superintendents, but it has also allowed for higher paid architects. Golf course condition has certainly gotten better, even since I was in school, but we are more educated than before and much of what has happened this summer is directly on mother nature. The Superintendents in the transition zone are usually well prepared for the summer months-much of what is happening is out of their control.

Tony,
Calm down...you are taking my remark above out of context....I agree with what you are saying..read what I said again....there will always be a need to strive for better..we agree...but not at as many courses as we do today...you are at a top course....
What you say re conditions in the 60's and 70's is correct but for many of our courses we have to get back to some kind of balance there...
We have built too many golf courses that should have never been built...they were never built for golf but for housing or other interest...and in doing so all of us have been asked to create conditions that allow the owner/developer to sell a better product...
You are at the top of the food chain...as to course conditions because you are at a golf club that values such. 
Trust me..there are 13500 golf course out there that cannot afford the top of the line supt./ the best maintenance conditions or the best equipment....they buy the majority of the golf cars, turf equipment, golf balls and clubs...
The situation is no different than if we tried to make everyone drive a lexus or mercedes....
Just because the industry has evolved to the point of where we have the abilities does not mean it is wrong to go for less..the market demands it more than they demand the high end....JMO  Henry Ford had it right.... and if we continue to expect premier conditions at courses that can't afford such we will continue to lose golf courses....
But none of this is saying supts should make less....I just don't think that "the better it is, then the better it is for everyone"   I saw a supt lose a job just a few weeks ago ...why $15,000 month lease on maintenance equipment, million dollar irrigation with 12,000 month electric bill....95,000 chemical and fertilizer...why?  members could not afford the course....if he had been allowed to take his knowledge and use a reelmaster 11blade, a triplex with no clean up cuts, been able to stop half the irrigation cost then he would have a job and the members would have had an acceptable club....and he could have made a good salary....but what he had was a good job with a good private club designed by a top signature architect for a large developer that only cared about spending a little more than the project down the street...so I don't think the "better" for everyone thing holds up across the board...
Cheers..and like your blog...it's good...
Mike

[Mike_Young]

For got a few things above...
Interesting to me that the greens that have held up the bast around my area during this heat are the pushups....
any insight as to why? 

[Sean_A]

Anthony

Everything you say is likely true, but this trend has also pushed the price of golf sky high (this should have been plainly obvious to all who paid attention when so many real estate courses were developed).  I am not blaming rich clubs, only pointing out that for the industry as a whole (not just the maintenance side of things) golf must be affordable for nearly all who wish to partake or there will be a significant shrinkage of the market and that leads to problems not just for the middle class clubs, but for all types of courses.

Mike & Jeff

When are you two gonna set up a course as owners/operators?  Your model seems infinitely more appealing to me than $400 public courses or $700 a month dues. 

Ciao   

[Jeff_Brauer]

Why do we always use high end clubs and tournament courses to illustrate where Golf in America is going?

My home club and its maintenance budget:

1976 - $700K
2010 - $475K

It still plays pretty well, as well as I remember it (first play in 1984 when I moved to DFW)

For that matter, how many $400 public courses are out there, besides Pebble?  The top dollar publics in DFW are currently well under $200 per play, and those courses rarely get full fare greens fees, as those are rack rates.

[Bruce Hospes]

Why do we always use high end clubs and tournament courses to illustrate where Golf in America is going?

My home club and its maintenance budget:

1976 - $700K
2010 - $475K

It still plays pretty well, as well as I remember it (first play in 1984 when I moved to DFW)

For that matter, how many $400 public courses are out there, besides Pebble?  The top dollar publics in DFW are currently well under $200 per play, and those courses rarely get full fare greens fees, as those are rack rates.

$700K in 1976??  That, my friend, was an assload of money.  When I got into the business in 1983, if you had a $500k budget you were in high cotton. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Why do we always use high end clubs and tournament courses to illustrate where Golf in America is going?

My home club and its maintenance budget:

1976 - $700K
2010 - $475K

It still plays pretty well, as well as I remember it (first play in 1984 when I moved to DFW)

For that matter, how many $400 public courses are out there, besides Pebble?  The top dollar publics in DFW are currently well under $200 per play, and those courses rarely get full fare greens fees, as those are rack rates.

Back in Mighigan, where I'm from, $700k is on the high end NOW.  $700k in 1976 is like having a $2.6 MILLION budget now.

[Tom_Doak]

For got a few things above...
Interesting to me that the greens that have held up the bast around my area during this heat are the pushups....
any insight as to why? 

Mike:

That's interesting.  I've heard pretty much the opposite in the northeast, that the push-up greens are dying first.

I am not so surprised by your take on it, though.  I'd guess that the grasses on those greens are relatively mature and have self-selected a bit for heat stress in previous years.  Whereas any green with a new cultivar is susceptible to whatever the weaknesses shown by that cultivar.

[Ian Larson]

For got a few things above...
Interesting to me that the greens that have held up the bast around my area during this heat are the pushups....
any insight as to why? 

Mike:

That's interesting.  I've heard pretty much the opposite in the northeast, that the push-up greens are dying first.

I am not so surprised by your take on it, though.  I'd guess that the grasses on those greens are relatively mature and have self-selected a bit for heat stress in previous years.  Whereas any green with a new cultivar is susceptible to whatever the weaknesses shown by that cultivar.

Yeah that is interesting. Mike you're in the south right? I'm interested in if the greens you're referring to are Bermuda or Bent/Poa? And if it's Bent/Poa just what area are they in. I wonder how far south someone would have Bent/Poa on pushups.

Just thinking out loud here but it wouldn't surprise me to see supers with Bent/Poa in the south come out of this summer less banged up than the guys up north. The mere fact that they have the entire winter to be carbing up the grass plant would set them up better than the guys who were covered in snow for months and swing right into spring and summer.

[Davis Wildman]

Why do we always use high end clubs and tournament courses to illustrate where Golf in America is going?

My home club and its maintenance budget:

1976 - $700K
2010 - $475K

It still plays pretty well, as well as I remember it (first play in 1984 when I moved to DFW)

For that matter, how many $400 public courses are out there, besides Pebble?  The top dollar publics in DFW are currently well under $200 per play, and those courses rarely get full fare greens fees, as those are rack rates.

Jeff,
How are they getting along with $225K less?  Specifically, what are they doing without...that's a lot dough to cut from a budget and still keep the course in good condition.  Is the course less conditioned; are members still happy with playing conditions?

[JMEvensky]

I'll take the opposite side.I believe that few,if any,clubs are immune from the economy and its effect on golf club membership.Even the absolute top end clubs will be more circumspect.

I think maintenance budgets will get slashed everywhere--more with a cleaver than a scalpel.

There's just too much anecdotal information about clubs suffering.Most memberships will look at,in their view,the lowest hanging expense fruit--the golf course budget.

[Mike_Young]

For got a few things above...
Interesting to me that the greens that have held up the bast around my area during this heat are the pushups....
any insight as to why? 

Mike:

That's interesting.  I've heard pretty much the opposite in the northeast, that the push-up greens are dying first.

I am not so surprised by your take on it, though.  I'd guess that the grasses on those greens are relatively mature and have self-selected a bit for heat stress in previous years.  Whereas any green with a new cultivar is susceptible to whatever the weaknesses shown by that cultivar.

Understand that there are very very few places with bentgrass push-up down here...I don't know why but our older greens are in much better shape..the only answer that I heard that could explain anything was from an older supt who said the temp of the sand was hotter during the day than the soil...and the problem was not having cool enough nights....
i have zero idea if that makes sense or not...

[Chris Cupit]

Mike,

As you mentioned there are almost no push ups that are bent around Atlanta.  This is an absolute record year for heat and temps above 90 in our area.  I believe I saw where this year had seen over 680 hours of temps above 90 which is more than double what we have averaged for a decade.  This record summer follows a record winter which saw more hours below freezing than ever recorded.

So you have a combination of record flooding in the fall, record low below freezing temps this winter and a terrible wet, cold spring and now a record June and second hottest July EVER!  Indian Hills is the only bent push ups I know of and 10 of their 27 greens are temps right now.

Many courses that are "USGA" or "close" specs are struggling but that usually means stressed (not dead) and 2-3 temps per 18 holes.  My course has one temp right now and had three more but that was due to a spraying error.  Had that not occured, I think we ould have had no issues at all.

Of course, this has been the summer for bermuda and whoever has it looks pretty smart right now   Of course, bermuda is not a perfect, bullet-proof option and some courses have shade issues that can't be solved (Country Club of the South) is re-grassing with bent as there are so many surrounding trees at so many locations and the trees are on neighboring property that they cannot touch makes bermuda an impossibility.

I had Dr. Elsner come and do light studies for our greens and Pat O'Brien has already been out to see if bermuda is even an option for us.  I am still convinced that in a normal year (and a "normal" or average July for Atlanta is highs of 88-89 and lows of 68-69) bent grass can provide an excellent surface from around Sept. 15 through june 15 and you will have to play "defense" in the summer which should still mean smooth ball roll but slightly slower.  Bermuda has many advantages but if your busy season is fall through spring it is not an obvious choice either way.  Also, many people hate the texture of dormant, painted bermudagrass from late fall through early spring.

Anyway, I think the "push up greens are doing better than USGA greens" statement may be a little misleading   I was up at a mom and pop course in Waleska that has push ups and the two greens I saw (18 and the practice green) certainly were as stressed as anything I've seen around Atlanta.

PS  As you may know, David Stone is re-grassing November 14th and he is hoping the board will consider looking at bermuda!  I think his place would be the perfect application for bermuda but as you know, that place ain't no country club, and there ain't gonna be any voting   Lastly, I wouldn't make any grassing choice based on one very unusual year of weather.  FWIW

[jeffwarne]

Chris,

worse than that they embrace speed and greens that "hold" (which is not hard given the moisture required to keep stressed greens alive)
and the same 99% could use a flier lie in the fairway to get the ball to travel the distance they think they hit it.

Jeff,
  When was the last time that you've been to Oakmont? I was there for the Womens Open last month with the Maintenance staff. There is no way that you could hold a bowling ball on those greens. They were so firm, it was like walking on brand news greens. And with the way they water, I will promise you, the average human uses more water taking a shower, than the staff at Oakmont uses per green, each day. With the unique way they water, there is more water ON the handwaterer than the green.

Tony,
Sorry for the confusion. I wasn't referring to Oakmont, but rather to the typical high end club golfer.
Most clubs don't have the resources or ability to acheive Oakmontlike conditions, but it doesn't stop them from trying.

[Roger Wolfe]

SBusch said:

Right now the voices for change are primarily from the "brown is the new green" camp which is really about watering and inputs as opposed to some of the things you pointed out.  So, right now, I don't see anything changing that trend at the top clubs.

IMHO:

The demand for "green" putting surfaces, fairways, tees and rough "in play" will always persist.  However I have noticed an ever growing trend in the periphery and unplayable areas being turned over to Sheep's fescue and other varieties of natural grasses even in the South where it is difficult to grow and maintain.  I think it is more of an effort to achieve "definition" then "go green."  

These areas were intended to be "low maintenance" but our course and many others in the Carolinas have found that not be the case.  Summer fescue dormancy caused by excessive heat has accelerated weed pressure and bermudagrass encroachment.  We increased our chemical budget tens of thousands of dollars, treated it with pre-emergent during the off season, handpicked every square of inch of in late Spring and it looked great (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/sets/72157624110924637/show/).  However, once the summer kicked in it has lost its edge and we cannot keep up with the weeds.  Our staff is now busy handwatering greens and mowing "bermudagrass gone wild."  To be fair it is doing well in shady areas and North facing slopes, but direct sunlight and the smallest amount of traffic (areas in play, cart path edges, greens surrounds) really seems to affect its performance.  I am sure it will return to past glory this fall and well into June... and I am also confident it will continuously improve season after season, however, expecting members of a private club to be that patient might be unreasonable.

To get back to the topic the aesthetics of the fescue is dramatic at the right time of year.  However, considering the planting of fescue as an attempt to "go green" is simply not the case based on my experience.

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