Beautiful Bayonne

[Bill Brightly]

Matt,

I sense other top NJ courses may be more resistant to scoring: Forsgate and Hollywood, for sure. But I need to play Bayonne from the back tees if I get another chance. I hit a bunch of 3 woods this past Sunday... 

Mountain Ridge's greens are so good, they make a really good layout a great course, IMO. I rate it better than Plainfield because of the flow, the consistency of pure Ross holes, and a FAR better 18th hole. Plainfield's18th is below average for a closing hole.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Any course needs to be judged from the tips when full shotmaking needs to be accounted for.

From the front or middle tees -- you don't need driver on many holes at Bayonne.

Just try the 17th there from the tips as just one example !

Bill, I concede MR's better finishing hole -- but the first 17 at Plainfield are more than a match for MR and Plainfield has been tested thoroughly in major competition -- '78 US Am and '87 Women's Open. Plainfield also has the best terrain -- save for PV in my mind.

One other thing -- Ridgewood and Essex County (new & improved) are also better than MR in my mind.

[Bill Brightly]

Matt,

We are discussing the ranking of my 2, 3, 4 and 5 top NJ courses...we are not that far off...

I  LOVE Plainfield. The green complexes are superb and Hole # 12 is one of he best par fives in the world, but you have to take off points for holes 13 and 14 which do not fit at all with the rest of the course. I think 16 at PCC is a GREAT hole, I go back and forth about 17

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt,

Galloway can't compare to Mountain Ridge.

I love Essex County, but the front nine has some weaknesses not found at Mountain Ridge.

With respect to Plainfield, I also love that course, but the finishing hole is extremely weak and many are critical of # 13, # 14 and # 15 and # 17.

Ridgewood is underrated in my opinion, but, you can't evaluate Ridgewood based on a gerrymandered selection of holes, you have to take two nines.  I'd opt for East and West as I think Center is a little weak.

Other than Pine Valley, I don't see any course in NJ knocking Mountain Ridge out of the top 5.

And, from the tips, Mountain Ridge is very, very challenging.
There's no stronger selection of par 4's in the State.

With respect to the challenge from the tips, I'd be willing to wager any and all comers on shooting their handicap on Sept 27th.
I might even spot anyone 5 additional shots since the hole locations will be more than interesting.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

What is wrong with #13 and #14 at Plainfield ?

Both are demanding holes and while they are not replicas of the other holes at Plainfield they are far from inferior.

I don't doubt they are not perfect by any means but they do not knock Plainfield down dramatically as you seem to believe.

Plainfield has a number of holes that would be on anyone's short list for best in NJ -- the 12th being just one of them/

How bout the 1st as well -- beyond PV's opening hole it is likely the best starter in the state.

Bill, to be clear -- are you saying MR is a better layout than Plainfield in your mind ?

thanks,


Pat:

We disagree -- the improvements since Hanse & Bahto got to ECCC have taken it to another level. MR is not bulletproof by any means.

ECCC is far better than what it was previosuly.

Let me also point out the East and West Nines at Ridgewood are also a good step or two at minimum beyond MR. Check it out when The Barclays is held there shortly.

You also say Galloway can't compare to MR -- surely you jest. The TF layout is solid from the first short right through the conclusion.

Let me also point out the major improvements carried out to Forsgate since the last time you played it. You also have the likes of Hollywood to consider.

Bayonne is also solid and provides a golf experience that is truly extraordinary.

I have a healthy respect for MR but other courses in NJ have not stood quietly by.  MR would be fortunate in my book to grab a top ten position.

Pat, when you say "no stronger selection of par-4's in the State -- then you must have missed the pedigree of the hole at Plainfield. People talk about the weak finisher but it's not bad given the nature of what the green can do. Plainfield has also been tested at all levels of competition and has fared very well. The 1st is superb, ditto the 2nd, the short uphill 4th is fantastic -- the long 7th is also well done. The closing 9th is a fine mid-length hole.

The 10th is nicely done although some people bitch and moan about the pond. I like the 13th but clearly some have issues with it. The 15 is a nice transition hole fromt he 14th to 16th holes. The 17th is one of the better dog-leg holes in the state and while the 18th gets booed quite a bit it's still a fine closer given what has come before it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

We disagree -- the improvements since Hanse & Bahto got to ECCC have taken it to another level.

I don't disagree.
I've played ECCC since the changes and the front nine has some shortcomings.
Despite those shortcomings, I really, really like the golf course.

MR is not bulletproof by any means.

I never indicated that it was, but, it's a superior golf course and the Superintendent gets it and is an advocate of fast and firm conditions.

When was the last time you played there ?
They've cleared a lot of trees in the last two years and there's more to come.

ECCC is far better than what it was previosuly.

I certainly agree with that, but that doesn't catapult it past Mountain Ridge

Let me also point out the East and West Nines at Ridgewood are also a good step or two at minimum beyond MR.
Check it out when The Barclays is held there shortly.

I played Ridgewood recently and have always been an advocate for Ridgewood's stature amongst other golf courses.
But, If Mountain Ridge was going to host a PGA Tour event, they'd lengthen the course to present a test that would be the equivalent of that found at Ridgewood.

On the West 9, # 1 and # 2 are a little weak, as is # 1 & # 8 West

For Amateurs, East and West provide more than an adequate challenge, as does Mountain Ridge.

You also say Galloway can't compare to MR -- surely you jest. The TF layout is solid from the first short right through the conclusion.
I'm not jesting and stop calling me Shirley.
I never said that Galloway isn't a solid layout, only that it can't compare to Mountain Ridge.
In fact, you're the only person I've ever heard who holds Galloway above Mountain Ridge,  and I'm not including the bug problem which makes some of the holes almost unplayable during the summer.

On a hole to hole basis, Galloway can't compare to Mountain Ridge which is virtually untouched since Donald Ross left the property in 1929.
When was the last time you played Mountain Ridge ?

There are NO gimmickie holes at Mountain Ridge.
I don't know if that can be said about Galloway.
There's no roads to cross at Mountain Ridge, no wild doglegs, just good solid holes, all 18 of them.

Why don't you come to the Sept 27th event and see for yourself.

Let me also point out the major improvements carried out to Forsgate since the last time you played it.

I've always really liked Forsgate, but, it's well below Mountain Ridge, and I'm a real CBM-SR-CB fan.

You also have the likes of Hollywood to consider.

I've always been a fan of Hollywood, I really like the golf course.
Hollywood, like Mountain Ridge has great greens and green complexes, although, # 17 at Hollywood remains a weak link.
Having played Hollywood and Mountain Ridge recently, one is soggy, the other fast and firm.
And, since you like championship courses, if one plays from the back tees, Mountain Ridge is a much stronger test.
I don't think there's a course in New Jersey with stronger par 4's.

Bayonne is also solid and provides a golf experience that is truly extraordinary.

Bayonne is a marvel, a real golfing marvel, but some find it very gimmickie.
I like Bayonne, but, hole for hole, Mountain Ridge is far more solid, with NO gimmickie holes

Given the choice of playing Bayonne every day or Mountain Ridge every day, I can't imagine a golfer would opt for Bayonne.
Would you ?

I have a healthy respect for MR but other courses in NJ have not stood quietly by. 
MR would be fortunate in my book to grab a top ten position.

When's the last time you played Mountain Ridge ?

Fortunate to make the top 10 ?  ?  ?

I think your memory might be a little hazy on this one.

Mountain Ridge is clearly in the top five, they've just flown under the radar for a long, long, long while.

Pat, when you say "no stronger selection of par-4's in the State -- then you must have missed the pedigree of the hole at Plainfield.
People talk about the weak finisher but it's not bad given the nature of what the green can do.

Matt, it's a horrible finisher and you know it.
Ross NEVER intended for it to be the finishing hole.
As to greens, Mountain Ridge's greens and green complexes are stronger.
The undulations, contours and slopes at Mountain Ridge are quite extraordinary.

Plainfield has also been tested at all levels of competition and has fared very well.

That's only because they've chosen to go that route.
Is Pine Valley inferior because they choose not to host a PGA Tour event.
NGLA ? Sand Hills ? Hollywood ?  Mountain Ridge ?


The 1st is superb, ditto the 2nd, the short uphill 4th is fantastic -- the long 7th is also well done.
The closing 9th is a fine mid-length hole.

The 10th is nicely done although some people bitch and moan about the pond.
I like the 13th but clearly some have issues with it.
The 15 is a nice transition hole fromt he 14th to 16th holes.
The 17th is one of the better dog-leg holes in the state and while the 18th gets booed quite a bit it's still a fine closer given what has come before it.

I like # 1 and # 2.  I also like the short 4th.  # 7 is a great hole, but, # 9 is weak.
# 10 is OK.  # 13 and # 15 are .... just OK.
# 17 is controversial.  I happen to like it because it's very demanding, but, alot of people find it VERY gimmickie.
And # 18 is an awful finishing hole.

# 1 at Mountain Ridge is very good, as is # 2.  As a short hole, # 3 is just OK.  # 5 is terrific and # 8 is great.
# 10 is good, # 11 terrific, # 12 as a short hole is OK. # 13 is terrific, # 15 is good and # 18 is exceptional if you're looking for challenge.

You need to get current on Mountain Ridge.

Come and play it on Sept 27th, where you can also speak to the architect and superintendent.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill:

What is wrong with #13 and #14 at Plainfield ?

They are fine little golf holes, the kind you could find on 10,000 courses in the US, but there is nothing "Ross-like" about the holes. (I forget when and why they were built.)

Both are demanding holes and while they are not replicas of the other holes at Plainfield they are far from inferior.

13 "demands" you hit a ball left of a tree and then a short iron over a pond.
14 "demands" you hit a mid-iron over a pond.

I don't doubt they are not perfect by any means but they do not knock Plainfield down dramatically as you seem to believe
 

If knocking Plainfield from #3 in NJ to #4 is a dramtic knocking....

Plainfield has a number of holes that would be on anyone's short list for best in NJ -- the 12th being just one of them/

How bout the 1st as well -- beyond PV's opening hole it is likely the best starter in the state.

PCC is great starter! but MR's is THE best in NJ
Bill, to be clear -- are you saying MR is a better layout than Plainfield in your mind ?

Matt, I am saying MR is my 3rd favorite in NJ and Plainfield is # 4...


.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Under your theory of courses having to be 100% pure pedigree -- you'd have to lower a ton of other courses as well. Places like Oak Hill / East, Baltusrol / Lower, etc, etc, etc. Courses of all types -- especially ones that have undergone changes over the years will have the fingerprints of different people. I don't see that as being a knock to a course -- Plainfield clearly has done well in the views of different people -- last I check Plainfield is among the nation's top 50 courses for good reasons -- MR is not even rated at all nationally.

Bill -- a "short iron" to #13 - really? Who's hitting that? Bubba Watson. The hole from the tips is roughly 450 yards. A slight fade works wonders there -- bail too far left and you get blocked -- the green is not as contoured as the others but there's plenty of subtle breaks within its confines.

Let's talk about the par-3 14th -- played front he tip tees it's far more than just a mid-iron -- try hybrid / long iron -- the frontal pin area can be used if the tees are placed a bit further up and it requires a steady never to putt the green.

MR is a fine starting hole -- but Plainfield's is like an ocean wave in the manner of the fairway rolling over up and then down. The restoration of the course recently was a major home run and the green presents a whole slew of issues.

Pat:

We agree to disagree on MR v ECCC. The latter has always been a solid course -- albeit more towards the back side but what Hanse and Bahto have done is taken it to another level. Easily makes my personal top five in NJ and has gained dramatically from all the benefits gained from such work.

I played MR late last year -- I have always liked the course -- I just see other layouts in NJ as being better overall designs.

You say Ridgewood is weak in spots -- MR has its share as well. Let me point out that Ridgewood's stronger holes are a good bit better than the stronger holes you find at MR in my mind. Like yourself I've played all of the key NJ candidates many times -- you see it your way -- I'll see it mine.

Pat, I concede the bug problem at GN but it's one of TF's finest layouts and despite a road crossing -- Bethpage Black has one as do countless others -- I don't see that as a lessening issue. If you do -- so be it. For you.

If forced to choose between Bayonne and MR -- I'd take Bayonne. Just a real paradise that's been created from the rubble of a former pier. The wind is also an added element and the finishing stretch of holes at Bayonne is arguably among the top 2-3 best in all of NJ.

Pat, my memory of the courses in NJ is razorsharp. I'm not some sort of guy who drops in every 5-10 years and plays one or two and then whips out of the state.

When was the last time you played Forsgate ? The changes made there have really made the course much better. Let me also point out -- that save for PV and Plainfield -- the quartet of par-3 holes at The Banks Course are superior to any other layout in the Garden State. The restored Biaritz by Stephen Kay is also well done.

If you think MR has better greens than Plainfield -- then again you are on the different side of the aisle on that one. Plainfield is a legitimate top 50 course in the USA -- MR has not been rated thus far.

Pat -- I love your promotion of MR and how it ties to the 9/27 event -- good luck with that - but the other places I have mentioned are by no means back seat items.