[George Pazin]

I've never quite understood the criticism of 18, even from people on this board whose views I respect.

What I like about it is that it fits with what I described in an earlier thread as the ying and yang of WS -- holes where birdie is a real possibility, and holes where par's a real accomplishment. That it comes as the final hole makes it that much better, in my view. To me, the final hole of a major championship course (and I'll grant an exception to The Old Course, because it's sui generis) ought to be a tough par -- Winged Foot and Oakland Hills come to mind, as do Carnoustie and Muirfield.

Is it the "most challenging and best" in championship golf? It's up there.

P.S. When Mickelson, Monty and Furyk all fell apart at the 18th at Winged Foot a few years ago on the 18th hole, did that hole get all this criticism? Of course not -- could it be because that's a Golden Age course, designed by Tillinghast, with lots of history and tradition (as opposed to an impossibly narrowed fairway with an approach shot to a goofy green?)

The difference with all of those other holes and the 18th at WS is that it involves a hazard with penalties (with Carnoustie being the exception, obviously). To me, the other holes challenge you in the proper manner - apologies for sounding stuffy - rather than through hit-and-hope strategies.

As I said before, it depends to me on how you like your drama - one shot at a time, or completely hit or miss with an overemphasis on one shot.

Rick, this is what I found:



I don't know what spot was chosen as the entry spot, but if it was anywhere left, there wasn't any fairway there.

[Jud_T]

Not only is it the best finishing hole in golf, it's the best hole in golf period.  It makes the Road Hole look like a silly antiquated version of risk/reward.  It makes the 8th at Pebble look like a tattered postcard from the early 20th century.  Compared to the 18th at WS the postage stamp becomes an ACTUAL postage stamp.  It makes all of Muirfield look dowright pedestrian.  Seriously guys,  there was some reality show drama courtesy of the eye-candy "bunkers" and the silliness that ensued, but you can't be serious.  I stand by my contention, second rate major at a second rate course.  Sorry Phil,  you're just gonna have to cry in your cheese curds over this one....

[Phil McDade]

Jud:

OK, big caveat -- but let's just forget, for a moment, all the silliness and crap that went on with Johnson. Did you watch the touranament? It wasn't exciting? Six guys with (or tied for) the lead on the final round, a bunch of guys with legitimate chances to win at the end, great shots and blow-ups -- I honestly thought it was some of the most compelling golf I'd seen in a while. Maybe you prefer Lucas Glover's 6-iron/9-iron finish at BBlack to safeguard his lead at the US Open. But this was good stuff, and the course deserves at least some -- even a bit of -- commendation for making that happen.

[Gary Slatter]

No, IMHO, the 18th Hole at WS is one of the most challenging and worse finishing holes in golf.  
I understand they change it for every big event and look forward to the next "version".  
I enjoyed watching the tournament, some great performances, but wouldn't walk across the street to play WS if it was free.
Of course no one will ask me anyway.  But I'll fly to Scotland for one game.

[Richard Choi]

Phil, if the excitment that a tournament generates should become the factor in how great a course/hole is, then Torrey Pines 18th is waaaay out in front of Whistling Straits 18th.

But I think we can all agree that a tournament drama and golf course architecture merits are not necessarily related to each other.

[Phil McDade]

Richard:

Concede me this -- the finish at the US Open at BBlack was dull, because Glover could protect his lead with a 6-iron off the tee/9-iron approach shot. Now that's boring.

By comparison, the 18th hole at WS -- a very tough par 4 -- factored into the final standing of at least a half-dozen players (notwithstanding the Johnson debacle).

Architecture can influence tournament drama (and I'm record as thinking the 18th at Torrey isn't a bad finisher...)

[Tom Birkert]

I would say Carnoustie is probably harder, because Kaymer showed that you can take a big number out of play by sensibly chipping out at WS.

At Carnoustie, there is a lot more danger on the tee shot and a lay up is not easy too. There's OB left of the green (with nothing to stop the ball running there) as well as trouble short.

Best finishing hole? I think Oakmont enters the equation. Fabulous hole.

[Richard Choi]

Phil, the only thing exciting about the 18th on Sunday at WS was DJ's debacle. The hole gave up one birdie (or was it two?) all day. The guys had no chance of making up a shot if they were coming from behind. The only question was whether or not they would hold their position or bogey it.

I think the most exciting and best holes would offer all possibilities; bogeys, pars, and birdies. Two out of three just cuts down on the excitement.

I agree that BPB 18th is terrible, because bogeys are about as rare as birdies are at WS 18th.

[Bryan Icenhower]

I've never quite understood the criticism of 18, even from people on this board whose views I respect.

What I like about it is that it fits with what I described in an earlier thread as the ying and yang of WS -- holes where birdie is a real possibility, and holes where par's a real accomplishment. That it comes as the final hole makes it that much better, in my view. To me, the final hole of a major championship course (and I'll grant an exception to The Old Course, because it's sui generis) ought to be a tough par -- Winged Foot and Oakland Hills come to mind, as do Carnoustie and Muirfield.

Is it the "most challenging and best" in championship golf? It's up there.

P.S. When Mickelson, Monty and Furyk all fell apart at the 18th at Winged Foot a few years ago on the 18th hole, did that hole get all this criticism? Of course not -- could it be because that's a Golden Age course, designed by Tillinghast, with lots of history and tradition (as opposed to an impossibly narrowed fairway with an approach shot to a goofy green?)

The difference with all of those other holes and the 18th at WS is that it involves a hazard with penalties (with Carnoustie being the exception, obviously). To me, the other holes challenge you in the proper manner - apologies for sounding stuffy - rather than through hit-and-hope strategies.

As I said before, it depends to me on how you like your drama - one shot at a time, or completely hit or miss with an overemphasis on one shot.

Rick, this is what I found:



I don't know what spot was chosen as the entry spot, but if it was anywhere left, there wasn't any fairway there.

that is the old 18th, here is the new 18th ...

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