[Mike Cirba]

at least in tournament golf?

I am starting to believe it is at least the most original and most creative hole in Pete Dye's repertoire.  

Template hole?   Pshaaw!   Replica of some ancient, great idea that has been repeated endlessly over the decades??  Nope!

There is not another hole like it on the planet, and that's a good thing.

There's multiple options for the drive, multiple options for a layup, and multiple areas of the green to shoot at.

And what's wrong with that...I'd like to know...cause here I go....agaiiiiinnnnnn...    

[Garland Bayley]

Must be, because it finished off DJ and BW today.
Almost got Kaymer too, but he survived with a bogey.

[Ed Oden]

Mike, originality does not necessarily equate to quality.  Personally, I think it is a poor hole and one of the worst on the course.  Contrary to your remarks, there are no options off the tee.  It is a drive it down the middle or die tee shot.  The options for the layup are necessary because the basic design doesn't work.  The hole is contrived, unnatural in appearance and out of character with most of the rest of the course.  It's sole purpose is to create drama.  In that respect it succeeds.  But so does a soap opera and I don't hear many claims that General Hospital is the best show on TV.

[Garland Bayley]

Mike,

Perhaps it would be the best finishing hole in golf for match play, because most matches wouldn't reach it, and if they did, they might as well flip a coin and get an equivalent outcome.

[TEPaul]

I'd say it's the most challenging 18th hole in golf and it seems to be about the most totally unique and original I've ever seen. And since most all golfers, including some of the best on the planet, may not even be able to figure out why it's a par 4, I would say that makes it totally Pete Dye. He really did say; "Get those guys thinking and they're really in trouble." And I think it's pretty true to say most all tour pros have always wondered what Pete's thinking.

I would say that was very true today----it sure got the leaders thinking, it got a ton of Rules officials thinking, it got too many on here thinking about that ruling and it probably got the rest of the viewing public thinking----What in the hell is that THING?

Pete's a trip and frankly so is Alice.

Goodnight Pete and Alice, wherever you are!

[Richard Choi]

I think for it to be the "best" finishing hole, it needs to give shorter hitting guys a fighting chance. Forcing someone like Zack Johnson to carry over 230 and land it on a dime to get it close is not exactly sporting.

[Garland Bayley]

It is really refreshing to see a major championship won by Kalen, and my golf games. Hit a drive, either chip it out or attempt a shot we're not capable of, and have a train wreck or two.

What you folks saw today was GRUDGE MATCH II, Kaymer vs. Watson.

[TEPaul]

"Forcing someone like Zack Johnson to carry over 230 and land it on a dime to get it close is not exactly sporting."


Who was forcing him to carry over 230 yards and land it on a dime?

Is there some new rule or standard in golf and architecture I don't know about that says even all touring pros should reasonably be able to hit all par 4s in two?

For Heaven's Sake, if most of those pros today played that hole like a mini-par 5 they probably would've come out better in the end.

THINK TOC's Road Hole! How many tour pros actually try to get their second shots on that green? I will admit, though, there does seem to be a more reasonable layup on that hole than on Whistling Straits #18.

Personally, what I would've liked to see this week with that hole would've been something vaguely out of Mike Davis's set-up playbook. What they should've done with that hole is just leave the tees in the same place all four days and called that hole a par 4 on Thursday, a par 5 on Friday, a par 4 on Saturday and a par 5 on Sunday.

THAT would really play into Pete Dye's old saw of---"Get those guys thinking and they're really in trouble."

[Doug Siebert]

Certainly the most challenging....it ought to stop people complaining about how unfairly tough Carnoustie's 18th is the next time the Open visits.  Unless they lengthen that to 540 and keep it as a par 4

I think the reason the Road Hole works so well at TOC is that it is the SECOND to last hole.  It is brutal, but gives you a chance to redeem yourself.  Indeed, a guy tied for the lead in the last group could break a window in the hotel, reload and take a double (which actually would be a pretty clutch 6 ) and still have a chance to make it up for it with an eagle on the 18th.  Once you lose shots at WS's 18th, they are gone for good.

I'm not saying it should have a driveable par 4 finisher, but if the 18th was the 17th, a medium length par 4 finisher with a wide fairway and tiny green would be a nice respite from the tour standard where you tend to see only stout par 4s and reachable par 5s.  You know, holes which are generally half par holes (which we in GCA like) but are only half par holes because of length, not strategy (which we do not like)

My 18th would have a wide fairway, which could have some good parts (nice and flat level lies) and some not so good parts (moundy and uneven, though maybe that area could work to the advantage of an accurate driver like Zach Johnson, if could find a turbo boost hill to bring himself within spitting distance of the big boys)  The tiny green would really test the nerve of the pros, and I'm sure there would be plenty of up and down drama like WS's current 18th has despite not being approached from 200+ by everyone.

[Powell Arms]

I love the fact that it had guys thinking. That they couldn't figure it out, shame on them. But that has been discussed on gca at length.

Interesting tweet from Bo Van Pelt, "
Count me as a player that didn't know all sand was a bunker this week. 18 is a bad hole on a great golf course. Sad that it happened to DJ."

Obviously, a lot to cram into twitters 140 character limitation. But it begs the question, why is 18 bad, and why didn't you know the local rules?  But that is a discussion going on elsewhere.

18 has plenty of room. IMO, options generally make for a better hole. 

[Michael Huber]

Does anyone have any thoughts about Martin Kymer's decision to pitch out after Bubba airmailed his shot? 

If the creek/stream/whatever was not crossing the fairway, would anyone like this hole more?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

The short answer = no.

The PGA and club made a big to do -- prior to the event -- in having so some sort of "left side" option for the players to possibly use.

It was not and frankly it needs to be because those who are shorter hitters are unduly penalized by the nature of the hole.

Make the left side a somewhat shorter carry and it allows for the hole to be approached from two sides -- two entirely different angles.

[Rich Brittingham]

WS has hosted 2 majors, and both have had dramatic finishes, with the 18th hole determining who made the plaoyy and who didn't.  Watson and Kaymer made huge putts on 18 in regulation just t make the playoff.  Despite any architectural criticism or praise, the course has produced 2 tightly contested majors and plenty of drama.

[Mark Smolens]

Once again, however, we need to keep in mind that the 18th hole from the tee the big kids use is completely different from the ones that us common chops play the hole from. In my rounds at WS I've never feared my ability to carry the ball to the fairway -- in fact, the opposite has on many occasions been true, with the caddy handing me the three wood for fear that I'd go through the fairway. That option may no longer be necessary with the extension of the left side fairway -- someplace that a "shorter" more accurate player might opt for rather than a 230 yard carry to the green. . . gee, isn't that what Mr. Toms did to win a PGA?

[JSlonis]

I love the fact that it had guys thinking. That they couldn't figure it out, shame on them. But that has been discussed on gca at length.

Interesting tweet from Bo Van Pelt, "
Count me as a player that didn't know all sand was a bunker this week. 18 is a bad hole on a great golf course. Sad that it happened to DJ."

Obviously, a lot to cram into twitters 140 character limitation. But it begs the question, why is 18 bad, and why didn't you know the local rules?  But that is a discussion going on elsewhere.

18 has plenty of room. IMO, options generally make for a better hole. 

Easy answer...Bo didn't read the rules sheet.  Apparently a lot of other players didn't either.  Bubba Watson said he knew the rules...he said something to the effect of "When you hit it where I do sometimes, you gotta know what the rules are."

Steve Elkington said that although he's been on tour for 25 years, he reads the rules sheet every round.

As for the architecture, it seems that the added left fairway (risk/reward) didn't factor in at all off the tee.  Perhaps the wind affected that option, but I didn't see anyone try that route.  I guess they couldn't carry it to that area.

[Michael Herrmann]

I think with the way the last two Opens at Carnoustie have played out, the 18th there can still make a case for most challenging finishing hole in tournament golf.

It would have been nice to see that left side of the fairway as more of an option.  If I recall from the CBS "flyover" previews of the hole, it was something like 308 to carry to that fairway, which I guess with the wind conditions was nearly impossible and why we didn't see anyone try.  Even if the carry wasn't as long though, does the left side give any real advantage?  I suppose it's a better angle to that front left pin position, but that's about the only hole location where approaching from the left would seemingly be an advantage.

That hole has certainly made for great drama the last 2 PGA's, but I'm not so sure it's a great finishing hole.

[George Pazin]

Guess it all depends on how you like your drama.

I vote no on both counts, if anyone is counting.

[Jay Flemma]

My vote for most challenging:  Carnoustie.  It has everything...water, sand, OB (which I hate), drama, and history.  We'll never forget Van de Velde

Best finisher:  Oakland Hills, maybe?  Again, a true summation of all that came before.  Great green undulations, long and tough.

[Dan Herrmann]

I didn't like it.  Just didn't (to borrow a phrase from Bill Coore) "feel like golf" to me.

[Richard Choi]

Is there some new rule or standard in golf and architecture I don't know about that says even all touring pros should reasonably be able to hit all par 4s in two?

No, but that was not the question. The question was whether or not it is the best finishing hole in golf. For it to be considered the best, I think it would have to be something that treats long and shorter hitters more equally.

[Rick Shefchik]

I'm trying to find a decent diagram of the 18th hole so I can figure out what Watson was thinking when he chose to drop the ball in the tall grass below the green, rather than take it back to the fairway and play from a lie that would afford him some spin. It seemed like a really bad decision as he was making it, and it certainly worked out that way. I don't think he had a prayer of holding the green from the junk he dropped in. So what was his fairway option? How many yards, on what line? (Sorry if this was all spelled out by the announcers; I was watching in a noisy bar and couldn't hear anything. I just thought at the time that any fairway lie from 160 yards and in was a better alternative than chopping one out of the heavy grass below the green.)

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mike I will give the hole an atta boy for very hard and different, but not great. I, granted from 50 yards closer, hit 3 woods off the tee and anywhere from a 4 iron to a 3 wood, depending on wind, to the green. The shot is singular off the tee to hit as far right in the fairway as you can to have an angle to the green. There is nothing there to make it risky. The shot to the green has two options aim right or over the water body. You have to be a  foolsih, or one heck of a player to hit a fairway wood to a left pin position.

[Phil McDade]

I've never quite understood the criticism of 18, even from people on this board whose views I respect.

What I like about it is that it fits with what I described in an earlier thread as the ying and yang of WS -- holes where birdie is a real possibility, and holes where par's a real accomplishment. That it comes as the final hole makes it that much better, in my view. To me, the final hole of a major championship course (and I'll grant an exception to The Old Course, because it's sui generis) ought to be a tough par -- Winged Foot and Oakland Hills come to mind, as do Carnoustie and Muirfield.

Is it the "most challenging and best" in championship golf? It's up there.

P.S. When Mickelson, Monty and Furyk all fell apart at the 18th at Winged Foot a few years ago on the 18th hole, did that hole get all this criticism? Of course not -- could it be because that's a Golden Age course, designed by Tillinghast, with lots of history and tradition (as opposed to an impossibly narrowed fairway with an approach shot to a goofy green?)

[George Pazin]

I'm trying to find a decent diagram of the 18th hole so I can figure out what Watson was thinking when he chose to drop the ball in the tall grass below the green, rather than take it back to the fairway and play from a lie that would afford him some spin. It seemed like a really bad decision as he was making it, and it certainly worked out that way. I don't think he had a prayer of holding the green from the junk he dropped in. So what was his fairway option? How many yards, on what line? (Sorry if this was all spelled out by the announcers; I was watching in a noisy bar and couldn't hear anything. I just thought at the time that any fairway lie from 160 yards and in was a better alternative than chopping one out of the heavy grass below the green.)

Rick, I believe if you are going to go back, you have to keep the point at which it crossed the hazard in between you and the hole. I don't know that there was any fairway along that line. I think he opted to drop within the two club-lengths.

[Rick Shefchik]

Thanks, George. That's what I was trying to figure out. I've been looking for a diagram of where Watson's second shot was played from, and what his options might have been. I couldn't tell if there was any fairway on a line back from the hole and the point where his ball crossed the hazard. Maybe Watson had no other option except to rehit from the same spot. If that's the case, it made his decision to go for the green from a dicey lie in the rough doubly risky -- especially given where Kaymer's drive landed.

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